Landing in Niagara Region by rail on Amtrak Maple Leaf?

[SeineToHumber]

Has anyone done this?

With CBSA unilaterally deciding to refuse applications 4 days per week at the 3 Niagara highway crossings, is landing by rail possible?

 

[rish888]

Are they legally allowed to deny a person landing if their papers are in order?

 

[Bs65]

Are they legally allowed to deny a person landing if their papers are in order?

If someone is not a PR or a citizen as with any country immigration at a border can refuse entry to anyone whether their papers are in order or not. A foreign national who is not a PR or citizen has no rights to enter Canada, why would anyone want anything different ?

 

[Bs65]

Has anyone done this?

With CBSA unilaterally deciding to refuse applications 4 days per week at the 3 Niagara highway crossings, is landing by rail possible?

Did you read this as an official policy 365 days a year or more aimed at flagpolers versus people crossing from the US. The difference being of course flagpolers never really entered the US or left Canada as such so CBSA can pick and chose whether to process the flagpolers.

 

[rish888]

If someone is not a PR or a citizen as with any country immigration at a border can refuse entry to anyone whether their papers are in order or not. A foreign national who is not a PR or citizen has no rights to enter Canada, why would anyone want anything different ?

I was talking in reference to people who hold a PR visa and are entering Canada to complete landing formalities. Seems bit excessive that CBSA will refuse them landing at certain POE's, after all were not talking about some FN with questionable motives.

Guess policy is policy though.

 

[SeineToHumber]

Law is implemented though policy. Policy must be in congruence with law. I believe CBSA is in the wrong here. And their aggressive actions are a disservice to new and existing Canadians.

I've created a new thread about our rejection experiences here:
https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/cbsa-refusals-to-validate-pr-at-land-border-crossings-in-niagara-and-maybe-more-areas.536003/

 

[SeineToHumber]

Did you read this as an official policy 365 days a year or more aimed at flagpolers versus people crossing from the US. The difference being of course flagpolers never really entered the US or left Canada as such so CBSA can pick and chose whether to process the flagpolers.

Flagpoler is an undefined term. So who is a flagpoler?
We were in the USA for 24 hours, but still rejected.

CBSA has zero discretion to process PR applicants, S. 71.1 of the IRPR is clear that new PRs can be processed at any point of entry.

If CBSA doesn't like it, they can ask for the law to be changed. CBSA should never hold people as hostages if they disagree with a law/regulation that requires them to do work.

 

[SeineToHumber]

Are they legally allowed to deny a person landing if their papers are in order?

No, they cannot. But CBSA has no oversight, so they feel like they can make up any policy they want.

S. 71.1 of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Regulations states:

Foreign nationals outside Canada

• 71.1 (1) A foreign national who is a member of a class referred to in subsection 70(2) and is outside Canada must, to become a permanent resident, present their permanent resident visa to an officer at a port of entry.
  
  
• Foreign nationals in Canada as temporary residents
  (2) A foreign national who is a member of a class referred to in paragraph 70(2)(a) or (b) and who is a temporary resident in Canada must, to become a permanent resident, present their permanent resident visa to an officer at a port of entry or at an office of the Department in Canada

 

[APPNOV2014NY]

@SeineToHumber

Clearly you are pissed but you could have easily avoided this situation by going to less busy POE or finishing landing formalities on Tues/Wed/Thur.

 

[SeineToHumber]

@SeineToHumber

Clearly you are pissed but you could have easily avoided this situation by going to less busy POE or finishing landing formalities on Tues/Wed/Thur.

I did do the easiest thing: I followed CIC's written advice that any Point of Entry could process us.

Easily drive an extra 5 hours? Without any guarantee that CBSA won't make up some other self-serving policy?

Just this weekend, there was a 75 car pileup in Buffalo with at least 1 dead on the exact same voyage we did this weekend. Now you want to 3x it?

Easily take a day off work? I'm a health-care professional that does real work. A day off has significant costs to me and patients.

Even going on Tues/Wed/Thurs is no guarantee that they will process us. Trust me, I tried to ask for an appointment from CBSA to avoid wasting their time and mine.

Obviously at least one senior official at CIC agrees with my anger to escalate it to the Case Management Branch. Even a high-end lawyer has agreed with me.

Let this be a lesson to any Canadian or new Canadian: DO NOT ACCEPT BUREAUCRATIC INCOMPETENCE. DO NOT LET YOURSELF BE HELD HOSTAGE TO DISPUTES BETWEEN DEPARTMENTS.

 

[Buletruck]

CBSA has zero discretion to process PR applicants, S. 71.1 of the IRPR is clear that new PRs can be processed at any point of entry.

I find that statement debatable....

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-1.4/page-2.html#h-7

Powers of the Agency
Marginal note:Exercise of powers conferred on Minister

• 12 (1) Subject to any direction given by the Minister, the Agency may exercise the powers, and shall perform the duties and functions, that relate to the program legislation and that are conferred on, or delegated, assigned or transferred to, the Minister under any Act or regulation.
  
  
• Marginal note:Officers and employees
  (2) An officer or employee of the Agency may exercise any power or perform any duty or function referred to in subsection (1) if the officer or employee is appointed to serve in the Agency in a capacity appropriate to the exercise of the power or the performance of the duty or function, and, in so doing, shall comply with any general or special direction given by the Minister.

• 
  
  If the Minister has implemented a program, then it seems it is well within their discretion to determine when or if they will process flag-poling at a point of entry. If I remember correctly, there have always been POE that had specific hours that allowed flag-poling.
  
  

  I'm a health-care professional that does real work.

  And no one else does real work? Bit pretentious.

 

[rish888]

I think the biggest issue is that "flagpoler" is not clearly defined. Flag poling in the most technical sense means going around the pole and coming right back. But what if someone goes for a cup of coffee before coming back? What is someone spends a few hours at a spa? What if someone does grocery shopping? Are they still flagpolers?

CBSA needs to clearly define flagpoler, because otherwise they can just throw around the term flagpoler to avoid processing people. IMO, insofar as there is no clear definition, this "policy" is an simply a tool that allows CBSA officers to arbitrarily expand their powers.

 

[SeineToHumber]

I think the biggest issue is that "flagpoler" is not clearly defined. Flag poling in the most technical sense means going around the pole and coming right back. But what if someone goes for a cup of coffee before coming back? What is someone spends a few hours at a spa? What if someone does grocery shopping? Are they still flagpolers?

CBSA needs to clearly define flagpoler, because otherwise they can just throw around the term flagpoler to avoid processing people. IMO, insofar as there is no clear definition, this "policy" is an simply a tool that allows CBSA officers to arbitrarily expand their powers.

In a communication with a CBSA mid-level official, flagpoler still wasn't precisely defined, but they seemed to take a very broad definition of it. Overnight was still considered flagpoling despite claims that the primary intent of a US trip was shopping (and lots of shopping proof!).

Broader than what was brought up Yang vs. [Minister responsible for CBSA] here: https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/fct/doc/2014/2014fc383/2014fc383.html

It seems "flagpole" may have originated as a term used by US officials on the paperwork for administrative refusals after Canada started to reject individuals that exited Canada but returned before reaching the US customs post.

 

[SeineToHumber]

• And no one else does real work? Bit pretentious.

Where did I discount the work of others?

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-1.4/page-2.html#h-7

Powers of the Agency
Marginal note:Exercise of powers conferred on Minister

• 12 (1) Subject to any direction given by the Minister, the Agency may exercise the powers, and shall perform the duties and functions, that relate to the program legislation and that are conferred on, or delegated, assigned or transferred to, the Minister under any Act or regulation.
  
  
• Marginal note:Officers and employees
  (2) An officer or employee of the Agency may exercise any power or perform any duty or function referred to in subsection (1) if the officer or employee is appointed to serve in the Agency in a capacity appropriate to the exercise of the power or the performance of the duty or function, and, in so doing, shall comply with any general or special direction given by the Minister.

• 
  If the Minister has implemented a program, then it seems it is well within their discretion to determine when or if they will process flag-poling at a point of entry. If I remember correctly, there have always been POE that had specific hours that allowed flag-poling.

The more I read into the laws and regs, the more questions it raises than answers.

Did the Minister implement this program? How could one get copies of these program instructions?

I guess IRCC has some kind of agreement for CBSA to perform the ?function? of validating PRs. Otherwise, they wouldn't be allowed to, no?

If PRs have to be processed at any PoE, wouldn't it be a non-starter for IRCC to include terms about suspending service depending on the day of the week? Especially at a PoE with high demand for the services?

Part of CBSA's mandate is to "facilitate the free flow of persons and goods, including animals and plants, that meet all requirements under the program legislation".

Immigration RP Act and Regulations are included in program legislation, so can the minister refuse to land flagpolers AND meet their mandate? Is migration a part of free flow of persons?

A natural step of "landing" is formalized import of Accompanying Goods and Goods to Follow. By refusing to land, how is that facilitating the free flow of these goods?

What happens when someone shows up with a U-Haul of personal effects? CBSA tells them to come back another day?

 

[rish888]

CBSA has a "remote border crossing program." Basically a permit that allows Canadian/American citizens/permanent residents (who can pass US and CDN background checks and have a clean immigration record) to cross the border without reporting to immigration (a schengan type of thing) in certain "remote" (read water bodies) locations between Western Ontario and Eastern Manitoba.

What I don't get is why can't CBSA expand this program to all/very busy POE's? After all if people wanted to smuggle goods/people they would still use Lake Superior or a super remote location (where CBSA has very little surveillance/a long response time) over a large POE full of CBSA. Expanding the RABC program would allow CBSA more time to deal with foreign travellers/travellers without preclearance without needing to resort to probably illegal policies.

I know they do NEXUS, but the application seems to be a nightmare compared to the RABC (a 1 page form with no interview) and my understanding is that NEXUS still involves some sort of face to face interaction with an officer. Seems like if CBSA admits there is a lack of resources and amends policies and creates/expands programs that eases crossings for low-risk Americans and Canadians, they will be able to devote more time to the high-risk travellers and foreign nationals, thus creating a more secure border without needing to cut services.