Is Canada Worth It?

[schwarzeradler]

Is Canada Worth It? Isn't it a rhetorical question? Is the number of applications not evidence?

In my humble opinion:
Global move of masses of people from places with fewer opportunities to places with more opportunities is inevitable and unavoidable.
Therefore, a smart government would let in more sought-after candidates first.
However, the barrier should be realistic. Obviously there are trade-offs.
If it is set too high (sure, Nobel laureates are preferred ), next thing you see all kind of people literally climbing over the fence. I mean literally, like from Mexico to the States. It is actually ridiculous to have more chance to win green-card with DV lottery than to get it being on H1-B already in the country.

It is very promising to see that the recent suggestions show opening of the immigration authorities' eyes .
No matter what education and experience you have the very first skills you need for Canada (or any other country for that matter) is LANGUAGE.
All those medical specialists driving taxis in Toronto could not (or would not, or did not want to) pass exam, first of all, because of inadequate level of language.
This is the biggest mistake you can make thinking "oh, it's OK, with experience and education when that person in Canada, he/she will improve his/her English/French here".
I would go so far to suggest making it mandatory:
Language (let's say English) – having less than 7 is not enough, so IELTS 7+ (for each part L-R-W-S), higher point for 8.5+, REGARDLESS of Academic or General Training. Canada will get people who speak very good English (or French).
And:
Education - high-school is not enough, at least Technical School or Bachelor, much higher point for PhD. Canada will get smarter people.
Experience - currently, at least one year and maximum for 4+, is adequate.

Further:
Age - minimum age 20, maximum points before 35, no points after 40. Canada will get people with enough years to earn pension.
Adaptability - for spouse the same minimum for language, education, experience and age, plus extra points for affidavit of support from at least 3 (maybe even 5, the more the better) people, anybody, not only relative. Canada will get people with spouses who will not be a drag to the main applicant. And will indirectly make sure the person will get well in Canada and not regret the move since those people know that person better than any immigration officer.

And:
Current list 29 without IT specialists is just nonsense. Let me repeat in other words- IT DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE.
Make it, maybe even 290 by including IT, all kind of hi-tech technicians, engineers and designers. Canada will get larger pull of specialists making even bigger advantage for manufacturing goods with higher added value. Otherwise sit and wait for India and China to do those products for you. Like those high-speed trains, for example.

Funds: the currents table is very realistic.

Another important detail: make decision making period of from one to two years. Not less than one year, to prevent people from making hasty decision. But not more than two, be humane. Let people plan their lives.

In conclusion - let my people go! (or actually come, to Canada )

This is the best post I have seen on this forum for some time, and to the point -PERIOD.
Nothing much to add to it really, but then do "they" see it that way?
Frustrating, Why? - I applied when I was in my late 30's and now I am in 40's, and I am still waiting, and have even started thinking of pulling out after so many years.
What has the long wait brought me??????????????????????????????

 

[slavasz]

Thanks guys! If like my post press "good" under my name

 

[David_TVO]

Is Canada Worth It? Isn't it a rhetorical question? Is the number of applications not evidence?

In my humble opinion:
Global move of masses of people from places with fewer opportunities to places with more opportunities is inevitable and unavoidable.
Therefore, a smart government would let in more sought-after candidates first.
However, the barrier should be realistic. Obviously there are trade-offs.
If it is set too high (sure, Nobel laureates are preferred ), next thing you see all kind of people literally climbing over the fence. I mean literally, like from Mexico to the States. It is actually ridiculous to have more chance to win green-card with DV lottery than to get it being on H1-B already in the country.

It is very promising to see that the recent suggestions show opening of the immigration authorities' eyes .
No matter what education and experience you have the very first skills you need for Canada (or any other country for that matter) is LANGUAGE.
All those medical specialists driving taxis in Toronto could not (or would not, or did not want to) pass exam, first of all, because of inadequate level of language.
This is the biggest mistake you can make thinking "oh, it's OK, with experience and education when that person in Canada, he/she will improve his/her English/French here".
I would go so far to suggest making it mandatory:
Language (let's say English) – having less than 7 is not enough, so IELTS 7+ (for each part L-R-W-S), higher point for 8.5+, REGARDLESS of Academic or General Training. Canada will get people who speak very good English (or French).
And:
Education - high-school is not enough, at least Technical School or Bachelor, much higher point for PhD. Canada will get smarter people.
Experience - currently, at least one year and maximum for 4+, is adequate.

Further:
Age - minimum age 20, maximum points before 35, no points after 40. Canada will get people with enough years to earn pension.
Adaptability - for spouse the same minimum for language, education, experience and age, plus extra points for affidavit of support from at least 3 (maybe even 5, the more the better) people, anybody, not only relative. Canada will get people with spouses who will not be a drag to the main applicant. And will indirectly make sure the person will get well in Canada and not regret the move since those people know that person better than any immigration officer.

And:
Current list 29 without IT specialists is just nonsense. Let me repeat in other words- IT DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE.
Make it, maybe even 290 by including IT, all kind of hi-tech technicians, engineers and designers. Canada will get larger pull of specialists making even bigger advantage for manufacturing goods with higher added value. Otherwise sit and wait for India and China to do those products for you. Like those high-speed trains, for example.

Funds: the currents table is very realistic.

Another important detail: make decision making period of from one to two years. Not less than one year, to prevent people from making hasty decision. But not more than two, be humane. Let people plan their lives.

In conclusion - let my people go! (or actually come, to Canada )

Dear Slavasz,

Do I have permission to post a portion of your comments to this blog:
http://www.tvo.org/cfmx/tvoorg/theagenda/index.cfm?page_id=3&action=blog&subaction=viewPost&post_id=14228&blog_id=323

 

[slavasz]

Oh, David, sure! Please post it!

 

[David_TVO]

Dear Slavasz.

Thank you for your contribution. Your comments have been added to our blog with attribution to this forum.

Blog post
http://www.tvo.org/cfmx/tvoorg/theagenda/index.cfm?page_id=3&action=blog&subaction=viewPost&post_id=14228&blog_id=323



Sincerely,

David
Voices of New Canadians Web Series
http://www.tvo.org/cfmx/tvoorg/theagenda/index.cfm?page_id=3&action=blog&subaction=viewPost&post_id=14228&blog_id=323

 

[David_TVO]

Dear Slavasz.

I forgot to mention how strongly I agree with the points you made on language skills. I am not sure what language requirements should be set, but I do believe we need to do more. Each person in our video series had passed the language test, but all confessed that after arriving in Canada, they discovered their language skills where not as advanced as they had thought. They all stated that language skills where the most important factor in determining a successful transition to a life in Canada.

Video: The Language Barrier
http://www.tvo.org/TVO/WebObjects/TVO.woa?videoid?760276585001


Video: Advice for New Canadians.
http://www.tvo.org/TVO/WebObjects/TVO.woa?videoid?760276585001

Sincerely,

David
Voices of New Canadians Web Series
http://www.tvo.org/cfmx/tvoorg/theagenda/index.cfm?page_id=3&action=blog&subaction=viewPost&post_id=14228&blog_id=323

 

[slavasz]

I watched all those videos.
Passing IELTS is not a problem.
But getting high score is.
The relationship between IELTS score and real skills is kind of logarithmic.
It means getting 1-3 is almost nothing. 3-5 is barely anything. 5-7 is so-so. 7+ is, I would say real skills. 9 being excellent.
That is why I said the bar should be 7+.

 

[sergealex]

All those medical specialists driving taxis in Toronto could not (or would not, or did not want to) pass exam, first of all, because of inadequate level of language.

Slavasz, I've probably pulled the phrase out of context, anyway I can't agree with the statement quotated.
At least for MDs highly restrictive job reqirements in the branch is the reason, including the "regulated" nature of almost all medical occupations, making employment very tough matter. But not a language level, as the language proficiency alone is way too less than enough. Do you really think language level matters if there are only under 200 positions for medical postgraduate training offered for the whole Canada? Almost all the places are immediately occupied by fresh graduates from canadian universities. What would change if foreign MD graduates driving taxies switch to something else, like the other kind of customer service where the language skills are more required...

I suppose the main problem of canadian immigration policy is that Canada with its social policy has maintained conservative traditions of employment, providing more the job market protection from fresh immigrants other than guaranteeing equal employment opportunities for fresh FSW immigrants. There are only few branches excluded, like IT or nursing maybe because of high demand in those niches.

 

[slavasz]

I don't have any access to official statistics. Therefore I hypothesize on the information at hand.
There is undoubtedly a correlation between the scarcity of the employment opportunities and the willingness to take the test.
However, as I said I strongly believe that the high mastery of language precedes all.

As to the point of maintaining conservative tradition, that is at the politicians' domain, my suggestions are from the economist point of view.
Please take a note that I personally, not necessarily, advocate them.

 

[sergealex]

However, as I said I strongly believe that the high mastery of language precedes all.

Slava, I didnt get it at all what test did you mean. I believe Medical Council of Canada tests (you have very unlikely meant IELTS tests, as all the FSW are oblidged to pass them) ? Those tests only serve the canadian medical mafia providing them profit from the gullible foreign medical graduates. For someone who did not graduate newly from canadian or american medical school those positions are inavailable by default. There is such a term in the branch, so called "old graduate", which all the FSW are, as the newly graduated medical students aren't eligible for FSW prorgam at all, as we all know (because of the eligibility requirements to experience and savements). The sad trouth is the most of FSWs with MD degree will probably never get employed as MDs in Canada.

 

[slavasz]

Of course I meant the regulatory tests for MD.
The medical mafia juxtaposition is beyond the scope of my expertize hence analyses.

 

[David_TVO]

Sorry that this message only applies to those that have already landed in Canada, and more specifically to those living in Toronto. But,n I wanted to let those in the forum, people who have so generously contributed to the TVO immigration content, know that The Agenda with Steve Paikin is having a meet and greet. There are no topics for the night, we won't be discussing any immigration issues. It is just a chance for us to meet the people that contribute and view our content. If you are in the Toronto area and want to meet the people behind The Agenda, and other hosts at TVO, here are the details:

Release
TVO has been bringing important conversations to your home for 40 years. Now we're bringing it to your neighbourhood. Journalists, producers, hosts and documentarians will be there. Come meet the people in front of the camera and behind the scenes at Tvo. It's a TVO meet-up and The Agenda's host, Steve Paikin will be there.


Tuesday, March 22 · 8:00pm - 11:00pm
The Ossington
61 Ossington Avenue
Toronto, ON

Facebook Link
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=116712971739673#!/event.php?eid=116712971739673

PLEASE REGISTER ON ON FACEBOOK AS AN ATTENDEE SO WE KNOW WE HAVE ENOUGH ROOM. HOPE TO SEE SOME OF YOU THERE.

David
Voices of New Canadians Web Series
http://www.tvo.org/cfmx/tvoorg/theagenda/index.cfm?page_id=3&action=blog&subaction=viewPost&post_id=14228&blog_id=323

 

[Right]

This is the best post I have seen on this forum for some time, and to the point -PERIOD.
Nothing much to add to it really, but then do "they" see it that way?
Frustrating, Why? - I applied when I was in my late 30's and now I am in 40's, and I am still waiting, and have even started thinking of pulling out after so many years.
What has the long wait brought me??????????????????????????????

I can not agree less with you dude. We have some applicant who applied in January 2004 and are just getting their PRs. If the cap for age is really 35yrs as at the point of application, they will be automatically be 42 years old now! For how long are they going to be working in Canada to become pensionable? 18yrs ONLY! If the working age is put at 60yrs.

Secondly, Scoring high in IELTS does not mean the person is super good in the Language. Recall that this is an examination which is not necessarily mean the best way of testing the knowledgeability...Many may read and really prepare for and pass it just for the sake of attaining the scores. Real life experience goes beyond passing the IELTS. Some fantastic Engineers and Doctors may not score a very high scores in IELTS but does that means that Canada does not need them according to to your analysis?

Aside the above exceptions, I totally agree witth your submission.

 

[slavasz]

"Scoring high in IELTS does not mean the person is super good in the Language" - hm-m-m... Are you saying IELTS is just a waist on time and money? So, all those people who design it and use it are idiots?

 

[Right]

"Scoring high in IELTS does not mean the person is super good in the Language" - hm-m-m... Are you saying IELTS is just a waist on time and money? So, all those people who design it and use it are idiots?

I never said so. But I bet you many examinations including IELTS is not a means of confirminng a person ability of the language.

I insist scoring high at IELTS exam does not mean the person have a very sound usage of the language. QED!

Inasmuch as I agree with some of your views, I disagree with IELTS. Using a form of examination to test ability does not mean that the process is da best.

Caveat though, am not saying it is totally wrong but it is the best possible they can at least used in selecting applicant but too much emphasis should not be put on it.

Bill gates was a dropped out of a formal educational Institution but yet the same skool is using his products to teach other scholars. I know of many Accountants, who never passed the professional accountant course (Though have academics quali. in accounting) and who sets mock exams for students of same professional bodies.

Are you aware that before now, writing explanation of the use of Language is accepted in place of IELTS? But IELTS became criteria when the number of application jumped up?

On a final note, are you saying that having a high score of 9.0 in IELTS would mean getting employment in Canada? Or are there no immigrants with super scores in IELTS who are yet working as unskilled labours? IELTS is not da issue but the Canadian idea of rubbishing the professional immigrants with the Canadian experience and education.