**INDIAN background-- CIVIL wedding?**

[pam9293]

Hi everyone!

My name is Pam and I was born and brought up in Toronto. My parents immigrated from India in the 80s. I am currently an articling student (future lawyer) and I should be called to the bar in November, 2020. I went to law school in India. This is where I met my boyfriend. Initially, he did not want to move to Canada and after much convincing, him making a passport, he caved. This was in early 2015. We lived together from late 2015- may 2016. (law school timeline 2013 august- 2016 may)

He immigrated to Canada in 2017 (January) as an international student. We didn't get married because my parents would never allow me going to India and bringing him over, they would think he is after "PR" as this has happened to many people we know. I told my parents he was a friend first because I didn't want him being judged as a "partner suitable for their daughter". Anyway, fast forward April 2018, I told my parents. It took a lot of convincing and they finally agreed (he is a different religion).

We know weddings are HUGE in the Indian culture but frankly we feel bad for our parents to pay for the whole thing. My parents know a lot of people (think 800 people guest list) so it will easily be a $80k+ affair. We want to live together, we are both 29 now. My parents said we need to get married first. We have agreed on a civil wedding now as we can afford it and a larger wedding in a few years, when we can contribute to it as we are both law students. Our main priority right now is establishing our careers. My parents have hesitantly agreed. My immediate family + my close friends know. We will have a formal "engagement" ceremony next year for extended relatives (so we can be seen in public together and not have to hear about it--very conservative people in our culture).

Coming to the point, we want to get married NOW and live together. I have an officiant, a small cake, backdrop/decor (i made it) and lunch planned for our wedding, two weeks from now. My boyfriend has a study permit expiring in april 2020 (question 1: can this be used to expedite the marriage certificate? because we need to apply for a owp with the spousal application--he went to a private college-not eligible for pgwp), question 2: will there be red flags because I am born into a culture that expects big weddings?). We have been dating for 4.5 years, have lots of pictures, messages etc. our relationship is very real. We have a letter from our indian landlord confirming that we lived together there. My immediate family will attend our small ceremony. We are applying for his parent's visas to attend the engagement next year and his dad is also currently sick so they cannot attend, he does not have any family in Canada. I don't care what extended relatives think but my parents don't want our wedding to be publicly known because we aren't having a big wedding and people will bad mouth them-- I know but I can't change someone else's mindset. They have already come a long way for us.

I want to be married to my boyfriend and am scared because of something outside of my control--I didn't choose the culture I was born into so I think it is unfair if that is a red flag. I don't want our parents paying for a grand wedding, we want to be able to contribute atleast some small amount towards it. We want financial stability before splurging on a grand religious ceremony-reception.

Please give me suggestions, share your experiences and advise. Thank you!

 

[keesio]

question 2: will there be red flags because I am born into a culture that expects big weddings?)

Unfortunately, yes. It is going to be a red flag. See my related post below:
https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/civil-wedding.677010/#post-8472437

You will need to overcome this red flag with good relationship proof and a good explanation. Based on what you wrote in your post, I'd say you are in pretty good shape in both areas. 4.5 years of solid relationship proof is good. The desire to keep the marriage "on the down low" (and the fact that he does not qualify for PGWP) does not help your case but I think it can be overcome with a good explanation.

Good luck!

 

[pam9293]

Unfortunately, yes. It is going to be a red flag. See my related post below:
https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/civil-wedding.677010/#post-8472437

You will need to overcome this red flag with good relationship proof and a good explanation. Based on what you wrote in your post, I'd say you are in pretty good shape in both areas. 4.5 years of solid relationship proof is good. The desire to keep the marriage "on the down low" (and the fact that he does not qualify for PGWP) does not help your case but I think it can be overcome with a good explanation.

Good luck!

Thank you so much! I am freaking out because I don't want to get rejected! If we have an interview then it is no problem but I fear an outright rejection
I will be attaching an explanation along with landlord letters from India and my parent's letter stating we live in their house (that's the plan--saves more money for the "big" wedding too) and letters from friends. I am also including a letter from my articling principal/employer and it will show that I do not make much money, certainly not 80k worth! Thanks a bunch!!

 

[keesio]

If we have an interview then it is no problem but I fear an outright rejection

I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure that IRCC (in cases of relationship doubt) will never outright reject an application without at least an interview. The interview itself is trigged because they have issues with the relationship validity and that is the applicant's big chance to explain things.

Because there are a few red flags, I would prepare as if an interview will happen.

 

[armoured]

Thank you so much! I am freaking out because I don't want to get rejected! If we have an interview then it is no problem but I fear an outright rejection
I will be attaching an explanation along with landlord letters from India and my parent's letter stating we live in their house (that's the plan--saves more money for the "big" wedding too) and letters from friends.

@pam9293, while I don't disagree with comments that others have made above, I'd like to make a slightly different point: a "red flag" on an application does not mean automatic rejection. Red flags mean things that are somewhat out of the ordinary. They may require more investigation and longer processing as a result, but do not mean automatic rejection. You need to make the case, and a strong one, that the relationship and marriage are genuine. But you also have many compensating factors i.e. that this is not an arranged marriage and you have spent a lot of time together.

You have a fairly strong case in many respects. And judging by what you have shared, you are like a lot of people "secular" in many respects (obviously I don't just mean in religious sense). Don't be shy about those secular/personal choices, although of course keeping in mind you may have to demonstrate and document.

A few thoughts:
-letters from your spouse's parents about the wedding and marriage even if they cannot attend may help. (Will any friends or extended family from his side attend?)
-it may be worth noting that the different-religious aspect may make a large wedding with both extended families complicated.
-if you can't have the traditional wedding, whatever you can have with friends, classmates, some relatives, as publicly as you can, will help (photos!).

Good luck.

 

[keesio]

@pam9293, while I don't disagree with comments that others have made above, I'd like to make a slightly different point: a "red flag" on an application does not mean automatic rejection. Red flags mean things that are somewhat out of the ordinary. They may require more investigation and longer processing as a result, but do not mean automatic rejection. You need to make the case, and a strong one, that the relationship and marriage are genuine. But you also have many compensating factors i.e. that this is not an arranged marriage and you have spent a lot of time together.

I don't think the other commenters (i.e. me) disagree with you here. In fact, I completely agree with your comment above.

 

[armoured]

I don't think the other commenters (i.e. me) disagree with you here. In fact, I completely agree with your comment above.

Yes, just I think sometimes people read red flag and get freaked out.

Maybe we should call them yellow cards like in football/soccer. Not so simple as that but I think you get my point.

 

[canuck78]

Would really discourage the engagement party next year. It will really raise questions about your civil marriage if there are pictures on places like Facebook about your engagement party. I do think your 4 year relationship will help although you have been apart for 2 years. The fact that he attended a private college that doesn’t seem to qualify for PGWP and his study permit is expiring does create red flags. It is pretty common for people to have civil ceremonies to start the visa process before having religious ceremonies later on. Most are not living together though. You have a longer relationship history so that does work in your favour. Not having the groom’s family attend the wedding does work against you. You have far less red flags then many others but you definitely need a detailed explanation letter.

 

[armoured]

Would really discourage the engagement party next year. It will really raise questions about your civil marriage if there are pictures on places like Facebook about your engagement party. ...
You have far less red flags then many others but you definitely need a detailed explanation letter.

I was thinking something along the same lines but couldn't find the right way to put it.

But it does seem a bit contradictory - undermining the argument - to be effectively saying we don't care about traditional wedding but we are planning one down the road.

I understand the motivation, even if it's only for 'the aunties' and extended family/community, but have to find the right line. It is pretty important that the civil wedding be 'real' with guests and photos and the like, even if civil. Being "out" to others as spouses or married is a test of sorts that they look at to understand whether the relationship is a genuine marriage/relationship.

Mind, I also know people who just never told some elderly relatives for various reasons but it wasn't hidden per se.

 

[canuck78]

I was thinking something along the same lines but couldn't find the right way to put it.

But it does seem a bit contradictory - undermining the argument - to be effectively saying we don't care about traditional wedding but we are planning one down the road.

I understand the motivation, even if it's only for 'the aunties' and extended family/community, but have to find the right line. It is pretty important that the civil wedding be 'real' with guests and photos and the like, even if civil. Being "out" to others as spouses or married is a test of sorts that they look at to understand whether the relationship is a genuine marriage/relationship.

Mind, I also know people who just never told some elderly relatives for various reasons but it wasn't hidden per se.

Yes the civil wedding to live together and save up for a wedding is a reasonable reason not to have a big wedding initially. As you have correctly pointed out it is the secrecy that causes problems. If you are married you should be out about the fact that you are married publicly or else it undermines the whole ceremony especially if you are planning on a ceremony 2ish years from now. You need to start viewing things from the perspective of an immigration officer. What would cause doubt about whether a marriage is genuine. It is well known that couple want to be together right after marriage so many do a civil ceremony to start the sponsorship process. Keeping a marriage quiet for 2 years will be tough. There are good chances that the news will get out before you have any big ceremony.

 

[pam9293]

Yes the civil wedding to live together and save up for a wedding is a reasonable reason not to have a big wedding initially. As you have correctly pointed out it is the secrecy that causes problems. If you are married you should be out about the fact that you are married publicly or else it undermines the whole ceremony especially if you are planning on a ceremony 2ish years from now. You need to start viewing things from the perspective of an immigration officer. What would cause doubt about whether a marriage is genuine. It is well known that couple want to be together right after marriage so many do a civil ceremony to start the sponsorship process. Keeping a marriage quiet for 2 years will be tough. There are good chances that the news will get out before you have any big ceremony.

I added a cover letter in which I explained:
We had a civil wedding to move in together, we are having a small celebration in august (included decor vendor, hall reciept and makeup artist confirmations). I did not mention a future grand wedding. I also mentioned that if they want pictures from the event, it will be in august. I said we did not wait until august for our wedding because we wanted to move in now instead of later and its the next step in our relationship + my parents wanted a solid commitment before living together. (last time we lived together was 2 years ago in another country).
What do you think?

 

[k.sha.]

I added a cover letter in which I explained:
We had a civil wedding to move in together, we are having a small celebration in august (included decor vendor, hall reciept and makeup artist confirmations). I did not mention a future grand wedding. I also mentioned that if they want pictures from the event, it will be in august. I said we did not wait until august for our wedding because we wanted to move in now instead of later and its the next step in our relationship + my parents wanted a solid commitment before living together. (last time we lived together was 2 years ago in another country).
What do you think?

Hi Pam9293,

I am pretty much in the same pickle as you are. I thought about writing a detailed letter of explanation explaining the officer exactly that - did a civil marriage for now so we can get our sponsorship application process started and begin living together, and then when money doesn't become an issue in the future, we plan on having a grand celebration.

However, I am still experiencing difficulties explaining. If you don't mind, would you please share your letter of explanation with me? Obviously, it goes without saying that hide your personal details, but if we can help each other out on this, I'd appreciate that very much.

 

[canuck78]

Hi Pam9293,

I am pretty much in the same pickle as you are. I thought about writing a detailed letter of explanation explaining the officer exactly that - did a civil marriage for now so we can get our sponsorship application process started and begin living together, and then when money doesn't become an issue in the future, we plan on having a grand celebration.

However, I am still experiencing difficulties explaining. If you don't mind, would you please share your letter of explanation with me? Obviously, it goes without saying that hide your personal details, but if we can help each other out on this, I'd appreciate that very much.

Approval really depends on whether you are “out” as a married couple already and have been living as a married couple. Many have a civil ceremony but do not live like a married couple and not all their friends and family know you are married and treat you like a married couple.

 

[pam9293]

Hi Pam9293,

I am pretty much in the same pickle as you are. I thought about writing a detailed letter of explanation explaining the officer exactly that - did a civil marriage for now so we can get our sponsorship application process started and begin living together, and then when money doesn't become an issue in the future, we plan on having a grand celebration.

However, I am still experiencing difficulties explaining. If you don't mind, would you please share your letter of explanation with me? Obviously, it goes without saying that hide your personal details, but if we can help each other out on this, I'd appreciate that very much.

I added an explanation letter AND letters from friends and family in which they acknowledge our marriage & us as a married couple and vouch for the genuineness of our relationship. I also added a cover letter.

Our cover letter was like:

Name, DOB Sponsor, Name, DOB Applicant

I am ___________ a Canadian citizen by birth, born in _______, Ontario. I am writing this letter to help clarify some questions which you have with our application, namely:
a) civil wedding in lieu of big fat indian wedding: talked about reasons (mainly money)
b) cohabitation: we live with my parents which is what I talked about here and I made reference to their letter of support also
Thank you for taking the time to consider our application.
Sincerely,
___________

My explanation was along the lines of:

Explanation to 7(a):

We decided to have a civil marriage after discussing the option for a while. We felt it was the next step in our relationship and we didn't want to wait for better finances in order to be together. His parents couldn't join us because his dad was sick (added proof from hospital) and because we want to celebrate with our CLOSEST friends, we are having a small party (more affordable) in the summer. I added receipts and booking proof. I also stressed how important is was for my parents to have me married before living with my (now) husband. My indian parents would never let me stay under their roof without getting married, we were ready to be married so it worked out that way as well.
- I mentioned we have had our parents support for school so we don't want them to pay for a grand wedding
- I mentioned how many guests are expected at indian weddings which is why we want to save up for it at a later date
- I mentioned how it is impossible to just have an indian wedding with a smaller guest list because it is more offensive to not invite vs not having one entirely
- Then I explained how much money we make (and added references to proof-pay stub/cheques).
- I added letters from my family, his family, my friends and his friends.

Hope that helped!