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Increase in 44(1) at the border?

Bornlucky

Hero Member
May 15, 2018
706
541
You seem to want it explained to you how the civil service functions, but don't wish to listen to those with some knowledge of it.

There's no surprises in the above. Government via legislation and regulations empowers certain officers to use their discretion, within the limit of the law. The government or 'ministry' of the day (with majority in parliament) deploys that discretion through officers who get instructions from the 'ministry' via the ministers responsible. Those directions for how to run things day to day via the civil service will never (well hardly ever, because scandal-generative) say to do anything contrary to the law, but can give guidance (frameworks, emphasis) on how policy is to be enacted in exercise of that discretion.

The fact this comes (however indirectly) from 'the Minister' is seen in the process, where a 'Minister's delegate' must sign off on the 44(1) reports.

Roughly that guidance might suggest that officers be very strict / extremely strict / strict but don't clog the system up with reports that will be overturned later, or - the least strict level - our priorities are [elsewhere] so be strict only to extent it doesn't detract from important stuff. Rather typical for all governments would be for initial instructions to say something at the extremes of this spectrum (eg 'zero tolerance') and the unintended consequences (eg extremely long waiting times for decisions, high legal expenses to govt) to become apparent after six months or so, and the course corrections to that initial guidance to avoid saying explicitly 'that other memo was moronic rubbish that's caused huge problems, pls ignore until further notice while we figure out how things work' but everyone can read between the lines.

Does any of the above mean that the officer's discretion does not exist? Nope. They have discretion, which they may exercise (as long as lawful), and they would probably never be punished for marginal cases and certainly not straightforward ones. But if their bosses (the minister and minions) are not happy with their exercise of their judgment, their career advancement may be, ahem, limited, and in extreme cases, dismissed. (Note dismissed usually not just due to disagreements over decisions but demonstrably incompetent i.e. at odds with any reasonable exercise of that judgment - or corruption, etc.; I'd hazard a guess that very few dismissals are due directly to disagreements over judgment in decisions such as this but rather serious problems elsewhere in one's record).
You assume that I have no knowledge, and that I won't listen to someone who does.

You don't know me, and I don't know you - but I don't have any trouble with the concept of discretion in the Federal Public Service of Canada.

Your insulting tone to me is like the first whiff of rubbish - you dismissing my understanding of the subject.

I asked a simple question for the very simple statement made, and these messages explaining existing discretion doesn't answer how it will be manifest for these specific cases to become more or less lenient.

You provide that officers will be harassed and their careers tanked if they don't exercise their discretion to be sufficiently severe.

Thanks for nothing
 

deadinside

Full Member
Mar 2, 2024
35
4
On a side note, I checked canlii.org today and noticed that there have been no reports on the site since August. I wonder why? Is that website still actively maintained? Is there an alternative website that pulls official records like canlii?
 

ethelstan

Full Member
Sep 16, 2016
42
26
On a side note, I checked canlii.org today and noticed that there have been no reports on the site since August. I wonder why? Is that website still actively maintained? Is there an alternative website that pulls official records like canlii?
It is Updated. Look up this case from December 2024 - Da v Canada about PRTD issuance refusal.
 

deadinside

Full Member
Mar 2, 2024
35
4
It is Updated. Look up this case from December 2024 - Da v Canada about PRTD issuance refusal.
I took a second look, and found some interesting things on canlii. It is flooded with court cases pertaining to appeals about claims of refugees to gain asylum in Canada.

When I last saw this website in March 2024, most of the cases pertaining to Cic were related to RO breach by PRs.

I wonder what has caused this change? It looks like suddenly there are a whole lot of refugees claiming asylum in Canada, especially in the last six months. I suspect that the courts are clogged by these asylum cases. How will this affect reporting of PRs who're in RO beach..
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,456
3,213
On a side note, I checked canlii.org today and noticed that there have been no reports on the site since August. I wonder why? Is that website still actively maintained? Is there an alternative website that pulls official records like canlii?
It is Updated. Look up this case from December 2024 - Da v Canada about PRTD issuance refusal.
There continues to be plenty of ongoing activity at the https://www.canlii.org/en/ site, including publication of ten Federal Court decisions this year, just two business days into the year, and IRCC was a party in seven of those decisions (mostly refugee appeals); but it appears the site has not published any IAD decisions since August.

So CanII is still operational in most regards but, it appears, it has not been publishing IAD decisions since August. And yeah, this is a big deal, the published IAD decisions has constituted one of the most useful resources for figuring out a lot about things like how the Residency Obligation is enforced in actual cases.

The operational manual for appeals before the IAD, that is ENF 19 Appeals before the Immigration Appeal Division (IAD) of the Immigration and Refugee Board (IRB), was updated in August. The summary of changes says there are updates regarding "directions on recording final decisions in GCMS."

But I do not see where the changes to ENF 19 would affect CanII access to and publication of decisions. It might be hard to dismiss the concurrence of the update and the subsequent absence of IAD decision in CanII (last IAD decision published in CanII was August 19, and this manual was updated August 22), but actually it was in mid-May when the steady publication of IAD decisions in CanII abruptly ended, there being only two heavily redacted decisions published since then.

Demands further research. The IAD decisions are an important resource.

I took a second look, and found some interesting things on canlii. It is flooded with court cases pertaining to appeals about claims of refugees to gain asylum in Canada.

When I last saw this website in March 2024, most of the cases pertaining to Cic were related to RO breach by PRs.

I wonder what has caused this change? It looks like suddenly there are a whole lot of refugees claiming asylum in Canada, especially in the last six months. I suspect that the courts are clogged by these asylum cases. How will this affect reporting of PRs who're in RO beach..
The only thing I see that has changed much is CanII not publishing IAD decisions, as discussed above. Asylum cases have long dominated the immigration related "cases" published by CanII, recognizing that in response to a search of CanII it lists decisions in multiple forums under "cases," thus including both Federal Court and IAD decisions, as well as published decisions in other forums, including the Federal Court of Appeals, the Supreme Court of Canada, and numerous adjudicatory bodies throughout the Canadian government. For decisions specifically by a particular forum, CanII facilitates a search of just that particular forum or, alternatively, use the filter provided to just show a particular forum's decisions.

The majority of published Federal Court decisions have long been refugee appeals, followed by appeals in regards to denied visa or permit applications and appeals in regards to inadmissibility for criminality (including both PRs and FNs). Very few RO enforcement cases reach the Federal Court (but those that do are important sources of information about how the law is applied in actual cases).

Until mid-May last year, a lot of the cases published at CanII were IAD decisions, and a large percentage of these were about RO enforcement, mostly about whether the PR should be allowed to keep PR status despite a breach of the RO based on H&C considerations. If we have lost easy access to these decisions that will really hamper efforts to stay well informed about RO enforcement. Not only did those decisions articulate the reasons why, or why not, the PR kept or lost status, but they often described many of the underlying facts and procedures, and typically described the position the Minister takes. It was in the IAD decisions we saw a dramatic increase, during the last five or so years, in the extent to which the Minister was arguing who-accompanied-whom issues in regards to some PRs living outside Canada with a Canadian citizen spouse.

There is nothing in any of this which appears likely to influence RO enforcement at the Port-of-Entry. So, in regards to "How will this affect reporting of PRs who're in RO beach," if by "reporting" you are referring to the formal preparation of a 44(1) Report for RO breaches, there is no indication it will have any effect.

dpenabill said:
this so-called quote contains content that is NOT from anything I posted
You assume that I have no knowledge, and that I won't listen to someone who does.

You don't know me, and I don't know you - but I don't have any trouble with the concept of discretion in the Federal Public Service of Canada.

Your insulting tone to me is like the first whiff of rubbish - you dismissing my understanding of the subject.

I asked a simple question for the very simple statement made, and these messages explaining existing discretion doesn't answer how it will be manifest for these specific cases to become more or less lenient.

You provide that officers will be harassed and their careers tanked if they don't exercise their discretion to be sufficiently severe.

Thanks for nothing
Please delete the misquote attributed to me.

The content you purport to have quoted from me was posted by another forum participant who is among a number here making a concerted effort to be informative.

"I asked a simple question for the very simple statement made, and these messages explaining existing discretion doesn't answer how it will be manifest for these specific cases to become more or less lenient."​

No one here is answering what confidential criteria border officials are applying. That's confidential. We don't have access to that information.

That said, it is not as if the Minister is issuing a directive to be "more or less lenient." That's not how it works. The directives almost certainly identify various factors and how those factors should be weighed, which in turn will have an impact that is more lenient, or less lenient. Thus, even though neither CBSA or IRCC publicly disclosed how officers were to handle returning PRs in RO breach following the Covid pandemic, it was clear from anecdotal reporting that both CBSA and IRCC were giving the impact of Covid a good deal of weight and generally, overall, approaching RO enforcement more leniently during that time . . . not because there was a directive to be more, or less, lenient, but almost certainly because there was a directive to take the impact of Covid into consideration and give that considerable weight. And that direction has almost certainly been modified if not withdrawn, probably some time ago, so that the guidelines for officers no longer direct them to give Covid reasons the weight they were given in the wake of the pandemic.

Bottom-line: if your complaint or criticism is contesting the statement by @canuck78 that the probability of a PR in breach of the RO being subject to inadmissibility proceedings also "depends on directives from gvt about whether they should enforce or show leniency," that's parsing the language used in search of a reason to challenge, to criticize, rather than trying to understand the gist of it, which is true, and that is that the way officers exercise their discretion is subject to and directed by rules and guidelines adopted by the Minister, which will in turn affect how lenient or strict the enforcement of the RO is.

Again, the period of rather obviously lenient enforcement in the wake of Covid is a prime example. In contrast, another example is the increased strictness in how the accompanying a Canadian citizen spouse RO credit is applied, which is interesting because this was well evident in decisions by IRCC officers (mostly those denying PR TD applications) but NOT in decisions made by CBSA officers -- it is not certain but it appears that the Minister of IRCC approved or adopted a more strict approach (as mostly evidenced by the arguments made by the IRCC Minister's representatives before the IAD and Federal Court), whereas there has been no indication that the Minister of PSEP (Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, which administers CBSA) has directed border officials in this way.
 

Bornlucky

Hero Member
May 15, 2018
706
541
I will not try to speak for @canuck78 but there is nothing in what @canuck78 posted that suggests directives contrary to the governing legislation, but rather appropriately made reference to the fact that under a Minister's administration, CBSA and IRCC formulate and adopt directives guiding and instructing officers in regards to what to consider and how to consider it when making decisions, including decisions involving an exercise of discretion, and otherwise structuring the scope of the officers discretion. To a large extent, that is what bureaucracies do, one part figuring out and administering how things are to work (including how to apply the governing law), and the other part implementing that.

Beyond all that . . . the discretion allowed government decision makers is almost never absolute discretion but is almost always structured by internal policies, rules, and guidelines or instructions, within the framework prescribed by law (the applicable statutes and regulations, and court rulings). In particular, border officers are limited in what they can consider in making a decision whether or not to prepare a 44(1) Report. Unfortunately much of that is confidential.
[/QUOTE]

You seem like a sincere and pleasant person who tries earnestly to help people.

I understand discretion within Canada's immigration's legislation and how that authority is found and bound by the descriptions within the delegated authorities and instruments as to who and what.

Regulations and policies narrow the focus, set up standards, etc. Manuals sew it all together for references, tools and guidance.

I don't need primers, prerequisites or think-pieces on the topic of Canada's Immigration Officers and what their discretion authorizes them to decide. I don't say that with any smirk or derision - I've been around.

Absolute discretion in Legislation cannot be outweighed by anything in subordinate Regulations or Policy because Legislation simply trumps it all. That doesn't mean that these things can't creep in, and it's only when challenged successfully that they disappear.

You're evidently a student of the whole immigration enchilada, so you may be conscious of the then new legislative drafting approach for IRPA to write broad legislation and shape and reshape it going forward in the Regulations. It was a change in the depth of focus.

Broadly written Legislation, narrowed in the Regulations would allow for swift changes - no need to go to the floor of the House for a vote, and you were free to add and subtract as you please. Little need to annotate IRPA when the changes are in the Regs. You can deal with the committee because you have to either way, but no House votes.

Lovely, but the detractors warned - broad Legislation lies out there and is a risk when no Regulations can legally stem or reverse its course. It will have to go to the floor, or you live with it, stop funding it - whatever.

One change within the Act that was a hot topic was the change to reporting inadmissibilities where in the previous Act it said that the officer, "shall" and it of course became, "may" for IRPA.

There was a loud concern from Immigration enforcement management, inland and at POEs that they could no longer compel an officer to make an inadmissibility report. Were they all wet? What do they know about Legislation.

Thanks for your efforts - I know you put your heart into it.

Now - "Also depends on directives from gvt about whether they should enforce or show leniency."

No, it cannot depend upon directing the use of discretion.

Do you see my point?

If "directive" was a poorly chosen word, say so and correct it. Otherwise this is more simply ignorance.
 

Bornlucky

Hero Member
May 15, 2018
706
541
There continues to be plenty of ongoing activity at the https://www.canlii.org/en/ site, including publication of ten Federal Court decisions this year, just two business days into the year, and IRCC was a party in seven of those decisions (mostly refugee appeals); but it appears the site has not published any IAD decisions since August.

So CanII is still operational in most regards but, it appears, it has not been publishing IAD decisions since August. And yeah, this is a big deal, the published IAD decisions has constituted one of the most useful resources for figuring out a lot about things like how the Residency Obligation is enforced in actual cases.

The operational manual for appeals before the IAD, that is ENF 19 Appeals before the Immigration Appeal Division (IAD) of the Immigration and Refugee Board (IRB), was updated in August. The summary of changes says there are updates regarding "directions on recording final decisions in GCMS."

But I do not see where the changes to ENF 19 would affect CanII access to and publication of decisions. It might be hard to dismiss the concurrence of the update and the subsequent absence of IAD decision in CanII (last IAD decision published in CanII was August 19, and this manual was updated August 22), but actually it was in mid-May when the steady publication of IAD decisions in CanII abruptly ended, there being only two heavily redacted decisions published since then.

Demands further research. The IAD decisions are an important resource.



The only thing I see that has changed much is CanII not publishing IAD decisions, as discussed above. Asylum cases have long dominated the immigration related "cases" published by CanII, recognizing that in response to a search of CanII it lists decisions in multiple forums under "cases," thus including both Federal Court and IAD decisions, as well as published decisions in other forums, including the Federal Court of Appeals, the Supreme Court of Canada, and numerous adjudicatory bodies throughout the Canadian government. For decisions specifically by a particular forum, CanII facilitates a search of just that particular forum or, alternatively, use the filter provided to just show a particular forum's decisions.

The majority of published Federal Court decisions have long been refugee appeals, followed by appeals in regards to denied visa or permit applications and appeals in regards to inadmissibility for criminality (including both PRs and FNs). Very few RO enforcement cases reach the Federal Court (but those that do are important sources of information about how the law is applied in actual cases).

Until mid-May last year, a lot of the cases published at CanII were IAD decisions, and a large percentage of these were about RO enforcement, mostly about whether the PR should be allowed to keep PR status despite a breach of the RO based on H&C considerations. If we have lost easy access to these decisions that will really hamper efforts to stay well informed about RO enforcement. Not only did those decisions articulate the reasons why, or why not, the PR kept or lost status, but they often described many of the underlying facts and procedures, and typically described the position the Minister takes. It was in the IAD decisions we saw a dramatic increase, during the last five or so years, in the extent to which the Minister was arguing who-accompanied-whom issues in regards to some PRs living outside Canada with a Canadian citizen spouse.

There is nothing in any of this which appears likely to influence RO enforcement at the Port-of-Entry. So, in regards to "How will this affect reporting of PRs who're in RO beach," if by "reporting" you are referring to the formal preparation of a 44(1) Report for RO breaches, there is no indication it will have any effect.



Please delete the misquote attributed to me.

The content you purport to have quoted from me was posted by another forum participant who is among a number here making a concerted effort to be informative.

"I asked a simple question for the very simple statement made, and these messages explaining existing discretion doesn't answer how it will be manifest for these specific cases to become more or less lenient."​

No one here is answering what confidential criteria border officials are applying. That's confidential. We don't have access to that information.

That said, it is not as if the Minister is issuing a directive to be "more or less lenient." That's not how it works. The directives almost certainly identify various factors and how those factors should be weighed, which in turn will have an impact that is more lenient, or less lenient. Thus, even though neither CBSA or IRCC publicly disclosed how officers were to handle returning PRs in RO breach following the Covid pandemic, it was clear from anecdotal reporting that both CBSA and IRCC were giving the impact of Covid a good deal of weight and generally, overall, approaching RO enforcement more leniently during that time . . . not because there was a directive to be more, or less, lenient, but almost certainly because there was a directive to take the impact of Covid into consideration and give that considerable weight. And that direction has almost certainly been modified if not withdrawn, probably some time ago, so that the guidelines for officers no longer direct them to give Covid reasons the weight they were given in the wake of the pandemic.

Bottom-line: if your complaint or criticism is contesting the statement by @canuck78 that the probability of a PR in breach of the RO being subject to inadmissibility proceedings also "depends on directives from gvt about whether they should enforce or show leniency," that's parsing the language used in search of a reason to challenge, to criticize, rather than trying to understand the gist of it, which is true, and that is that the way officers exercise their discretion is subject to and directed by rules and guidelines adopted by the Minister, which will in turn affect how lenient or strict the enforcement of the RO is.

Again, the period of rather obviously lenient enforcement in the wake of Covid is a prime example. In contrast, another example is the increased strictness in how the accompanying a Canadian citizen spouse RO credit is applied, which is interesting because this was well evident in decisions by IRCC officers (mostly those denying PR TD applications) but NOT in decisions made by CBSA officers -- it is not certain but it appears that the Minister of IRCC approved or adopted a more strict approach (as mostly evidenced by the arguments made by the IRCC Minister's representatives before the IAD and Federal Court), whereas there has been no indication that the Minister of PSEP (Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, which administers CBSA) has directed border officials in this way.
Canuck78 frequently makes great errors, and apologies for the remark meant for another.

Thanks for missing any indication of my own understanding of how it all works. I don't need this analysis - I've been to the mountain, but thanks.

Confidential criteria instructions to fetter discretion? Are you talking about the Confidential Manual for overseas case processing?
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
56,399
13,788
Canuck78 frequently makes great errors, and apologies for the remark meant for another.

Thanks for missing any indication of my own understanding of how it all works. I don't need this analysis - I've been to the mountain, but thanks.

Confidential criteria instructions to fetter discretion? Are you talking about the Confidential Manual for overseas case processing?
First not true. Also thought this was common knowledge so a short post that anyone reading can understand seemed appropriate. Was not expecting this saga. Would add that we will likely also see something similar from IRCC. Anecdotally seems to be already happening in pathways like H&C. There is no other option given the volume of applicants.