Immigration Fraud, Marriage of Convenience, Marriage Fraud and Marriage Scam.

[Leon]

Hello Everyone.
I have a question: how long sponsored wife from another country must to be married to canadian citizen and live or pretend that she lives with him at mutual address in Canada before she can separate or divorce legally? Here is a situation: she has an arranged marriage since September, 2011 and, as I know, didn't have papers until very resent time, I don't think she even got them yet. Being legally married she met another man and since November, 2013 moved in with new boyfriend. There is no proof that it was arranged marriage, but is there a way to report her and get some actions done? Generally speaking, can she get away with this?

If she still didn't get her PR, the sponsor can withdraw his sponsorship.

If she already got her PR but left him right away and moved in with someone else, he can report her for marriage fraud and see if immigration does anything about it, which they might or might not.

If they applied for sponsorship on or after October 25th 2012, there is a 2 year condition on her PR. That is, 2 years after getting her PR, immigration will check if she is still with her sponsor. If not, she could lose her PR. If they applied before that, there is no such condition. He could however still report her for marriage fraud and see if anything happens. If immigration looks into their case, they may call her in for an interview and ask her to explain her situation.

 

[newbee1]

Does Anyone know how long does it takes CIC to investigate the marriage of convenience cases as I have reported my spouse to immigration. He falls under the category of conditional PR as he was sponsored after oct 2012.
I am aware that my file has already been transferred to CIC Mississauga

 

[Gogia]

very soon u will see results...trust me...now a days they r fast...

 

[newbee1]

very soon u will see results...trust me...now a days they r fast...

Aww,.. I hope you are right.

 

[canuck_in_uk]

I found this thread very interesting -- I lived in Thailand for many years, where international marriages are part of the culture. On this thread you see the complaints of people who feel that they have been tricked by scheming foreigners, but you don't hear so much from the other half of the equation.

- in many countries marriage is more contractual than in Canada. In Thailand, for instance, courtships are short and there is a financial element in marriage.

Slightly off topic but I read this and recalled something I witnessed in Thailand a few years ago.

I was in an internet cafe in Bangkok. Two women sat down at the computer beside me; one was an American around 50 years old, the other a Thai girl around 18-19 years old. The American started up a Skype conversation, speaking very loudly and without headphones so that both of them could hear the man they were speaking to. I quickly realized that the American was introducing the Thai girl to her future husband, a much older man in Belgium. It was very surreal to sit there and listen to what was a basically a business transaction between the American woman and the Belgian man, essentially trading this Thai girl. They discussed the terms of payment for the American for arranging everything, compensation for the Thai girl's family, what the man would expect of his new wife when she came to Belgium. At one point, the American told the girl to talk to the man that would be marrying her and taking care of her but the girl spoke no English. She waved at the computer and just sat there.

I knew that this happened but to actually sit there and see it was, for me, disturbing.

 

[Leon]

I have heard the point of view from a Thai person that marriages are often arranged anyway so the girl may have had the choice of marrying this guy who might offer her a better life or marry some other guy she didn't really know either. For her, maybe it's a better future prospect to go to Belgium to marry some guy than to stay in Thailand.

I have also come across Thai and Filipino people who are happy to play matchmaker and find some single guy a wife from back home. In one case, an 70 yr. old neighbour of mine was offered to marry a 35 yr. old. with the business agreement that he would pay for the immigration fees, her flight and a relatively small amount of money to buy winter clothes. A part of the agreement was that if he were not to like her as a wife, he could divorce her and she would then re-pay him his expenses in installments over a period of 3 years.

 

[SenoritaBella]

Wow!

 

[on-hold]

Slightly off topic but I read this and recalled something I witnessed in Thailand a few years ago.

I was in an internet cafe in Bangkok. Two women sat down at the computer beside me; one was an American around 50 years old, the other a Thai girl around 18-19 years old. The American started up a Skype conversation, speaking very loudly and without headphones so that both of them could hear the man they were speaking to. I quickly realized that the American was introducing the Thai girl to her future husband, a much older man in Belgium. It was very surreal to sit there and listen to what was a basically a business transaction between the American woman and the Belgian man, essentially trading this Thai girl. They discussed the terms of payment for the American for arranging everything, compensation for the Thai girl's family, what the man would expect of his new wife when she came to Belgium. At one point, the American told the girl to talk to the man that would be marrying her and taking care of her but the girl spoke no English. She waved at the computer and just sat there.

I knew that this happened but to actually sit there and see it was, for me, disturbing.

Oddly enough, this can happen more easily because of the rather high status of women in Thailand. In a normal Thai marriage the groom pays a dowry to his wife's family, which depending on their circumstances, goes to the wife. This is an important part of the marriage, but it doesn't have the same significance as the reverse dowry used in India -- it's the wife's guarantee that the groom is serious, and if things go wrong, she can use it to go live on her own.

In Southeast Asia, women traditionally had higher status than anywhere in the world, including premodern Europe. They normally, and still do, controlled the finances, ran businesses, served at court in various ways (even military) -- when traders from other countries landed in Bangkok, they traditionally married a local wife who would manage the local aspect of the business. Women were also expected to enjoy sex. This system has managed to accommodate VERY easily a worldwide glut of middle aged to older men who have savings, pensions, unhappy past marriages and a wish to try again . . . It's not prostitution or fake marriage, at least on the Thai end.

 

[canuck_in_uk]

I have heard the point of view from a Thai person that marriages are often arranged anyway so the girl may have had the choice of marrying this guy who might offer her a better life or marry some other guy she didn't really know either. For her, maybe it's a better future prospect to go to Belgium to marry some guy than to stay in Thailand.

Oddly enough, this can happen more easily because of the rather high status of women in Thailand. In a normal Thai marriage the groom pays a dowry to his wife's family, which depending on their circumstances, goes to the wife. This is an important part of the marriage, but it doesn't have the same significance as the reverse dowry used in India -- it's the wife's guarantee that the groom is serious, and if things go wrong, she can use it to go live on her own.

It's not prostitution or fake marriage, at least on the Thai end.

I understood that arranged marriages happened often in Thailand but for me, having never know anyone in an arranged marriage let alone been privy to the actual negotiations involved in such marriages, it was disturbing to see this girl reduced to a commodity to be sold.

I know that my feelings about the situation were simply a reflection of how I was raised, my own culture. I don't judge them at all for doing things differently according to their culture or consider their marriages to be any less real because they were arranged. And I really hope that it was the better option for the girl. I must admit, I did judge the American "matchmaker" harshly; she was pretty obnoxious, discussing her "finder's fee" and yelling at the girl in English louder and louder, as if that would make her understand :.

It was an interesting view into an aspect of the world that I had never seen before.

 

[steerpike]

What is "disturbing" is not that arranged marriages happen, but that the CIC openly accepts them and treats them the same as marriages based on love. I have no idea how they can possible tell the difference between an arranged marriage and a marriage of convience, but i guess they can.

 

[SenoritaBella]

I think that's quite a presumption about arranged marriages but a common belief of those who are uninformed. Just because something is different from your own way of doing it doesn't make it "disturbing". I have taken the time to understand and have friends whose parents' marriage was arranged.

An arranged marriage is one where a 3rd party(matchmaker or parents) introduces 2 persons. They have a choice to agree or not (another misconception out there is that they don't have a choice). The matchmaker usually does their homework about both persons and introduces them only if they deem them suitable for each other. In some instances, both sets of parents have been friends for a long time and know the character/background each other's children. So based on that foundation, there is usually no need to "date and fall in love"(whatever that means) because all that can happen during the marriage. So the years it takes to "know" someone has been done for them by their parents/family and red flags addressed.

If arranged marriages are common in the couple's custom why would you assume it's a marriage of convenience? They do that anyway and didn't just start practicing their custom to immigrate. It just so happens sometimes one of the partners lives in Canada and has to bring their spouse. Also, just as some western marriages end in divorce so too can arranged marriages for all kinds of reasons. Do you think all western marriages that involved immigration where for convenience too?

Canada prides itself on being accepting and multicultural so it stands to reason CIC has to treat all marriages in the same manner. I suggest you watch the TLC program, "90 day fiancé". When you do, kindly report back if any of those relationships appears to be for convenience. In my opinion, one of them is for convenience based only on what I have heard the foreign partner say. Mind you these are not arranged marriages/relationships.

What is "disturbing" is not that arranged marriages happen, but that the CIC openly accepts them and treats them the same as marriages based on love. I have no idea how they can possible tell the difference between an arranged marriage and a marriage of convience, but i guess they can.

 

[Gogia]

i think sucess rate in arrange marriage is way more then the fall in love marriage. my opinion.

reason when couple in arrange marriage has any problems....seniors who arrange that marriage get involved in to solve...90% it solve the confusion in married couple.

while in fall in love marriage if problem comes up...couple go to file divorce..in court...there is no binding like seniors involvement in that case...so thats why divorce rate is high in western culture...while in eastern culture...there is binding involve like third party insurance..gaurantors...for marriage to save it. they jump into it to save family dignity and honour...if some one get divorce in eastern culture. ..whole tribe feels bad image on them.

thats a difference of binding in eastern and western marriages.

 

[on-hold]

A lot of what gogia says is correct -- the binary calculation that an arranged marriage is 'false' and a love marriage is 'true' doesn't make any sense, either logical or practical. Both options run the gamut. Love is a state of mind, and it's easy for the Western man in Thailand (two times divorced, hasn't dated for years) to tell himself that he's in love with the woman he met two weeks ago who is far more beautiful than will look at him twice in his own country; and it's easy for her (divorced, poor, unlikely that a local guy is going to marry her) to tell herself that she's in love with this fellow who likes her and has more money than she could hope to marry at home. In one sense, these two fit each other very well, each brings something that the other isn't going to find in their own town, and they both have experience. The marriage has challenges, like language, where to live, etc. etc. but are they worse than two 22-year-old students who date for a year and get hitched before either has a real job?

The real test of a marriage is if both people in it want to be married to that person -- reasons vary.

 

[canuck_in_uk]

i think sucess rate in arrange marriage is way more then the fall in love marriage. my opinion.

reason when couple in arrange marriage has any problems....seniors who arrange that marriage get involved in to solve...90% it solve the confusion in married couple.

while in fall in love marriage if problem comes up...couple go to file divorce..in court...there is no binding like seniors involvement in that case...so thats why divorce rate is high in western culture...while in eastern culture...there is binding involve like third party insurance..gaurantors...for marriage to save it. they jump into it to save family dignity and honour...if some one get divorce in eastern culture. ..whole tribe feels bad image on them.

thats a difference of binding in eastern and western marriages.

I would argue that arranged marriages have a lower divorce rate because in cultures where arranged marriage is the norm, divorce is generally seen as socially unacceptable and shameful, especially for women. In many countries, a woman who attempts to seek a divorce risks not just persecution and violence but also death.

 

[Gogia]

thats true...in east they try their best to avoid divorce situation...famiy members from both side listen both parties in the presence of seniors or gurrantors or marriage arrangers...who ever at fault...will ask forgiveness from.his her spouse..and next time will try their best to avoid that situation..to happen again and live peacefully...