I am a PR, my partner is Armenian-Syrian living in Lebanon. Marriage stuff...!

[BenA105]

Hey guys,

So I'm a PR, originally from England, and I am currently living in Lebanon with my girlfriend. We've been thinking of marriage, and were wondering about a few things.

So she holds Armenian and Syrian passports. However, her mother is from Beirut, hence why we're living here (her real home is Aleppo, but for obvious reasons she no longer lives there). We have been talking about marriage, and I wanted to get some information to make our scenario a bit more clear!

1. From what I gather - We'd need to do an "Inland" application, where I need to move back to Canada, right?

2. I guess, she should apply with her primary nationality being Armenian? Syrian passports are basically worthless now. However, she was born and raised in the Armenian community in Aleppo, so Syria is her "home". She already has criminal checks from there and getting them from her time living in Armenia are fairly easy.

3. We've been together less than a year. We have a very strong relationship, and have done a whole ton of travelling together, so have plenty of photographs, passport stamps etc. We don't have a lot of emails or chat records though, as we've been together most of the time. Anything else we can do? Our parents have all met etc, and we have photos with them.

4. If we do this application, can she then get a visa to come to Canada to visit or even to live, while the process is going on? I assume no, but would be great if this was possible. The problem, she only has family ties here in Lebanon. No strong employment/financial ties. I guess that would make it harder, unless she got a good employer?

5. She used to live in Toronto as a teenager, and went to high school there for a year. Her family visited ON many times in the past, due to them having some family there. Would this help with an application?

6. We're not down for a huge wedding. I'd prefer something small, don't want to make a big deal out of it. Would that be a problem? Or can you marry in the Canadian embassy in Beirut or something?

7. I met her while travelling. As a result, I don't have a ton of money, but I have no problem getting work when I get back to Vancouver. Is it an issue?

Thanks for reading. I hope you guys can shed a bit more light on this process!

 

[Wilderness]

Hello, I'm in the process of applying myself, so am no expert at this. But I'll try to answer your questions to the best of my knowledge.

1. From what I gather - We'd need to do an "Inland" application, where I need to move back to Canada, right?

The guide to sponsorship says "Permanent residents residing abroad may not sponsor from outside of Canada." So yes, you have to submit an inland application.

2. I guess, she should apply with her primary nationality being Armenian? Syrian passports are basically worthless now. However, she was born and raised in the Armenian community in Aleppo, so Syria is her "home". She already has criminal checks from there and getting them from her time living in Armenia are fairly easy.

I'm no expert at this. I would mention both nationalities, and use as primary whichever makes life easier, after explaining it. If her Syrian passport has expired or will expire soon, she could mention this and use her Armenian nationality as primary. You want to be as honest and clear as possible and hide nothing.

3. We've been together less than a year. We have a very strong relationship, and have done a whole ton of travelling together, so have plenty of photographs, passport stamps etc. We don't have a lot of emails or chat records though, as we've been together most of the time. Anything else we can do? Our parents have all met etc, and we have photos with them.

We've asked friends and family to write letters explaining why they think our relationship is genuine.

4. If we do this application, can she then get a visa to come to Canada to visit or even to live, while the process is going on? I assume no, but would be great if this was possible. The problem, she only has family ties here in Lebanon. No strong employment/financial ties. I guess that would make it harder, unless she got a good employer?

The visa is a completely different process from the permanent residency. She could apply for a visitor visa. Family ties are relevant, if she can prove them. Having a stable job with a long term contract will help. She shouldn't hide the fact that she's in the process of applying for permanent residency.

In any case, she'll have to be in Canada when you apply inland. If you are approved as sponsor (which takes about a year) she can get an open work permit.

5. She used to live in Toronto as a teenager, and went to high school there for a year. Her family visited ON many times in the past, due to them having some family there. Would this help with an application?

It might help, but I'm no expert at this.

6. We're not down for a huge wedding. I'd prefer something small, don't want to make a big deal out of it. Would that be a problem? Or can you marry in the Canadian embassy in Beirut or something?

We had a small wedding. Take lots of pictures. Save all receipts, and make sure they are signed and stamped. Save all wedding cards.
I don't think you can marry at the Canadian embassy. Honestly I think having a small wedding ceremony, even if a dinner in a restaurant or at home will be much better than no ceremony at all. You want to show that your marriage has been genuinely acknowledged by your friends and family.
Now that I think of it, you can only have religious marriage in Lebanon. If you're not up for it, you might have to go to Cyprus.

7. I met her while travelling. As a result, I don't have a ton of money, but I have no problem getting work when I get back to Vancouver. Is it an issue?

I'm not sure about this. I'll leave this answer to someone else.

I hope this helps,

Wilderness

 

[canadianwoman]

1. From what I gather - We'd need to do an "Inland" application, where I need to move back to Canada, right?

No. 'Inland' refers to where the application is processed, and to apply inland the applicant has to be in Canada. If she can get a visa to Canada, and you went there with her, then you could apply inland. If you go back to Canada and she stays outside of Canada, then this is an 'outland' application. For an outland application, the applicant can also be in Canada as a visitor, but since your wife will need a visa this may not be possible.
However, since you are a PR, you must be in Canada to sponsor your wife.

2. I guess, she should apply with her primary nationality being Armenian? Syrian passports are basically worthless now. However, she was born and raised in the Armenian community in Aleppo, so Syria is her "home". She already has criminal checks from there and getting them from her time living in Armenia are fairly easy.

Armenian would appear easier than Syrian. She can also apply through the office that deals with Lebanon, where she is living now, if she was admitted to Lebanon for one year. She does not have to have lived in Lebanon for one year: she just needs the visa or whatever she used to enter the country to have been issued for a year or more.

3. We've been together less than a year. We have a very strong relationship, and have done a whole ton of travelling together, so have plenty of photographs, passport stamps etc. We don't have a lot of emails or chat records though, as we've been together most of the time. Anything else we can do? Our parents have all met etc, and we have photos with them.

Proof you have been living together is better than emails and chat records, so no need to worry about that. The other things you mentioned are good proof.

4. If we do this application, can she then get a visa to come to Canada to visit or even to live, while the process is going on? I assume no, but would be great if this was possible. The problem, she only has family ties here in Lebanon. No strong employment/financial ties. I guess that would make it harder, unless she got a good employer?

It will be difficult for her to get a visit visa to Canada, most likely. She can try, but I would not try unless she has proof of strong ties to Lebanon.

5. She used to live in Toronto as a teenager, and went to high school there for a year. Her family visited ON many times in the past, due to them having some family there. Would this help with an application?

Yes. A history of successful visit visas where the person never overstayed is good evidence that she won't overstay this time. The problem will be her ties to you, which the visa officer may find will outweigh her ties to Lebanon and her previous visa history.

6. We're not down for a huge wedding. I'd prefer something small, don't want to make a big deal out of it. Would that be a problem? Or can you marry in the Canadian embassy in Beirut or something?

Small is fine - unless you are both from traditional families in a country where huge weddings are the norm. If you do have a small wedding, still do as much as possible to make it look special. Look at the questions on the forms about the courtship and wedding, and get the kind of proof they want. Don't do anything that is not typical in her or your culture just because they ask about it on the forms, though.

7. I met her while travelling. As a result, I don't have a ton of money, but I have no problem getting work when I get back to Vancouver. Is it an issue?

Since you are a PR, you will not be able to sponsor her until you have moved back to Canada. Someone sponsoring a spouse does not need an income, but of course it is better to have one. I would first get a job, then submit the application.

 

[AnaMaria]

As you have not lived with her for 12 months, you have to be married in order to sponsor her. And the police certificates are only valid for 3 months from the date issued. So basically the one from Syria will most likely be expired by the time you submit the application. I suppose you may have to get them again. I say "may" only because of the situation in Syria. To find about more, I suggest you take a look at Syrian thread in the forum. You will probably be able to find more information.

 

[amikety]

Just a personal observation based on what you've written - not intended to insult you or her.

You've been together for less than 1 year and she's previously lived in Toronto and both of her passports are from areas with civil strife, war, etc.

CIC may question her desire to come to Canada at any cost. Even if you are married, I would strongly suggest you submit letters from both side of the family to attest to the relationship as well as a community members or two (such as your doctor). In your case, you should submit the strongest application you possibly can. Many people only submit a 'sample' whereas you might want to submit everything. She should prepare ahead of time for an interview and become comfortable with the questions the VO may ask. (There's several threads that list all possible questions already on the forum - use the search function to view them.)

It's not any one of those factors I mentioned above, but all 3 of them combined.

 

[BenA105]

Re: I am a PR, my partner is Armenian-Syrian living in Lebanon. Marriage stuff..

Thank you for the responses, it has cleared a lot of things up for me. You guys are very helpful

So it seems I should head back to Canada then. We talked today, and it seems the best option to test our relationship "long distance" for a while, and if it still works then we will marry. It seems to be the natural progression for "us" and where we are at. We want to be together and long term want to be in Canada.

So, to get this straight: once we marry, and I submit the application from Canada, I should try to stay in the country as much as possible? Am I safe to leave for a few weeks to visit family back in the UK, or is that a risky business?

I don't think getting evidence to prove our relationship will be a problem at all. I guess letters from both sets of parents (although her Dad isn't in the picture, so it would just be her mother from her side) and we have a bunch of friends/former employers who can verify. Would copies of matching passport stamps/dates be good for travel evidence? We have a single plane ticket together, the rest of our travel was overland.

I realise that her having a Syrian passport could potentially cause problems, which is why I thought we should apply with the Armenian as primary. Her family consider themselves Armenian first (as most Armenian families seem to), despite being born and raised in Syria. Armenia is fairly stable, although corrupt and poor, but definitely not wartorn. I was living there for a while myself, as was my brother (his wife, strangely, is Armenian-Iranian). I hope CICs perception of Armenia isn't too bad!

A potential issue that has come up as a result of the answers. We have only been in Lebanon a couple of months. Before that was Armenia, and before that they were in Syria (until things kicked off in Aleppo last spring/summer). Now, because she hasn't been in Lebanon long, and is technically a tourist there until she has a proper work visa, does this mean we have to apply through Moscow for her Armenian passport? There's no Canadian Embassy in Armenia and Syria isn't realistic for obvious reasons. Beirut CIC isn't an option for us?

So the short version would be something like:
- Marry in Lebanon, me return to Canada
- Gather documents, photos etc. Submit to CIC
- Wait a year give-or-take. Go to potential interview (where would that take place?).
- If we get approval she can apply for open work permit (how long will that take?)
- Live in Canada together and wait for PR (another year?)
- Land
- Relax

Is that about right?

 

[amikety]

She will have to declare both passports on her application, but she can use the Armenian as her primary. The news media over here makes Syria sound like a hellhole (sorry) at the moment. Hopefully your VO will have a more realistic picture of Syria. I've read several accounts from people here about their views on their home country and how it's portrayed in the Western News Media - and how extremely different these views are.

As you're a PR, you'll need to stay in Canada most of the time. Visiting family is okay. Most people recommend trips lasting no more than 2-3 weeks and only 1-2 trips per year.

Everything you have mentioned will work as proof. The most important part is you can show it happened as opposed to saying it happened. (I personally didn't include any trip as 'proof' unless I had a ticket, hotel receipt, etc. I did mention 'small daytrips' in my relationship story, but that's it.)

Despite the fact you're inside Canada, it will be an Outland sponsorship. It refers to the Visa Office and she can't use Inland unless she's in Canada or can enter Canada freely. There is no open work permit with Outland sponsorship. She can apply at any VO she can get to. If she is legally admitted to Lebanon for at least 1 year, she can apply there - just know if she has to leave Lebanon and can't get back in, your application gets flushed.

She will also need to carefully document her travel history.

 

[BenA105]

Re: I am a PR, my partner is Armenian-Syrian living in Lebanon. Marriage stuff..

Ah ha, so she can't get an open work permit? That would suck. So it takes a year to be approved as a couple and another year for residency? Two years, no chance to live together?!

She can stay in Lebanon for a year at a time on her Syrian passport and then do a border run and have no problems. Is that fine? Otherwise, her mum doesn't have a Lebanese passport but if she got one then in turn her daughter can stay for three years at a time. Is she allowed to travel outside of Lebanon for any length of time?

 

[BCgirl2012]

Re: I am a PR, my partner is Armenian-Syrian living in Lebanon. Marriage stuff..

Ah ha, so she can't get an open work permit? That would suck. So it takes a year to be approved as a couple and another year for residency? Two years, no chance to live together?!

She can stay in Lebanon for a year at a time on her Syrian passport and then do a border run and have no problems. Is that fine? Otherwise, her mum doesn't have a Lebanese passport but if she got one then in turn her daughter can stay for three years at a time. Is she allowed to travel outside of Lebanon for any length of time?

‌Beirut's processing time for 80% of applicants is 19 months, and 15 months for Moscow. As far as I know, she can easily travel to Moscow at anytime on her Armenian passport (they used to be visa exempt. I think they still are). Keeping in mind that the travel will only be necessary if an interview is required. So, that's a point to consider.

My husband is from Georgia, so I have some idea about the region. Like you described, it's not the richest region, but it's not in mayhem either. Most people are actually living quite peacefully, if not luxuriously. I didn't get the sense that everybody is dying to leave Georgia to come to Canada, so I wouldn't personally worry about that aspect.

I actually think it's a good thing that your girlfriend has travelled quite a few times to Canada and a lot of times to other places. What counts here is the fact that she has always been respectful to the visa terms, so that's a good thing.

Do you have proof that you've lived together? It will be a great thing to show. Basically, you want to make it clear that the relationship is genuine and continuing. So I'd say the travel proof (traveling together) and cohabitation proofs are great things to enclose.

Each case is unique. It's really difficult to suggest specific pieces of evidence to include in your application, but the usual lists are in the guides and you probably know them already. However, I really want to suggest that you think about your relationship from an outsider's point of view, and see what doesn't fit what CIC calls "cultural norms". Then you will need to provide some supporting document for that specific point, explaining why that point isn't a big deal for you.
For example, in some cultures age difference is a big deal and in some it isn't. But the VO will want to know how the couple feels about it, if this is really a big deal in that particular region.

The processing time will be (time to approve you as the sponsor in CPC-M) + (time to approve her PR application at the VO)
Right now, the processing time at CPC-M is around 30 days, and the second stage depends on the VO. I've mentioned the respective processing times above.
You can take a look at the processing times here:
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/times/perm-fc.asp

Also, take a look at the VO specific threads and spreadsheets to get a feel of which one would be faster. I know there is a Beirut thread. The Moscow thread doesn't seem to be very active. I haven't seen a Moscow spreadsheet, as most Russian speaking people discuss and keep track on Russian speaking forums, but like I mentioned, the processing time will be faster than the 80% announced time. Those are normally for a few cases.

Best wishes, and hope this helps.

 

[canadianwoman]

Re: I am a PR, my partner is Armenian-Syrian living in Lebanon. Marriage stuff..

So, to get this straight: once we marry, and I submit the application from Canada, I should try to stay in the country as much as possible? Am I safe to leave for a few weeks to visit family back in the UK, or is that a risky business?

As a PR, you have to stay in Canada while her application is being processed. Short trips out are OK. A few weeks to visit her or your family in the UK will be fine, a few times a year. 6 months or more at a time, and you risk her visa being denied.

I don't think getting evidence to prove our relationship will be a problem at all. I guess letters from both sets of parents (although her Dad isn't in the picture, so it would just be her mother from her side) and we have a bunch of friends/former employers who can verify. Would copies of matching passport stamps/dates be good for travel evidence? We have a single plane ticket together, the rest of our travel was overland.

This is all good evidence. If you are going to use matching dates/stamps in your passports, find some way to make this evidence clear for the visa officer: I put a cover page showing each border crossing we did together, then stated which page of his passport had the entry stamp and which page of mine had the entry stamp. Another poster actually scanned their passports, and showed the matching stamps by cutting and pasting the relevant pages.

I realise that her having a Syrian passport could potentially cause problems, which is why I thought we should apply with the Armenian as primary. Her family consider themselves Armenian first (as most Armenian families seem to), despite being born and raised in Syria. Armenia is fairly stable, although corrupt and poor, but definitely not wartorn. I was living there for a while myself, as was my brother (his wife, strangely, is Armenian-Iranian). I hope CICs perception of Armenia isn't too bad!

The Armenian passport is definitely the one to use, since the Canadian embassy in Syria is closed. The visa officer will see your wife's history in any case, so any suspicions raised by that history should be counteracted by you providing more proof your relationship is genuine than other couples might have to.

A potential issue that has come up as a result of the answers. We have only been in Lebanon a couple of months. Before that was Armenia, and before that they were in Syria (until things kicked off in Aleppo last spring/summer). Now, because she hasn't been in Lebanon long, and is technically a tourist there until she has a proper work visa, does this mean we have to apply through Moscow for her Armenian passport? There's no Canadian Embassy in Armenia and Syria isn't realistic for obvious reasons. Beirut CIC isn't an option for us?

For her to use her country of residence, she has to have been admitted there for a year. It doesn't sound like she was. There is no harm in using her Armenian passport, except that if there is an interview, they would expect her to go to the visa office processing the file for it. Presumably Moscow, though in some cases the visa officers do travel to do interviews - in which case it would be in Armenia.

So the short version would be something like:
- Marry in Lebanon, me return to Canada
- Gather documents, photos etc. Submit to CIC
- Wait a year give-or-take. Go to potential interview (where would that take place?).

Depends on what visa office is selected for processing. See above. If your evidence that the relationship is good enough, and the visa officer is not suspicious about anything, there may not be an interview.

- If we get approval she can apply for open work permit (how long will that take?)

She will be applying outland. With outland, once she gets the PR visa and goes to Canada, she is a Canadian PR and can start working right away (once she gets her SIN card.)

- Live in Canada together and wait for PR (another year?)

If she applies outland, she will get the PR visa, will come to Canada, and will be a PR right then. There is now conditions on that PR, but if you stay together for two years, the conditions are dropped. If she gets a TRV, she can come visit you while the outland application is being processed, or you could then apply inland.

 

[Fencesitter]

*I only read the title of this thread*

Is this a for sale thread?

FS

 

[amikety]

*I only read the title of this thread*

Is this a for sale thread?

FS

Haha FS.... looking for some cheap leftovers for a second wedding?

OP, one thing I would consider is where she would be comfortable going for an interview. Is she comfortable going to Moscow? (I would ask Beirut too but I think that's obvious.) Another thing to consider is cultural differences that may be present in each office. For those questions, you're probably best asking questions in threads for Moscow and Beirut. Some VO seem like their heads are screwed on and some seem like brainless zombies.

 

[BenA105]

Once again, thanks for the responses. Things are getting much clearer.

An issue which I can see is the "us living together" part. We've lived together since the turn of the year, but it's pretty unofficial. The proof we can provide from that would be a statement from her mother confirming it. That's what I can do. It's actually not a cultural norm for an unmarried Armenian girl to live with a partner. Basically, once you get married, you move in with the husband's family. Before that, you stay home. However, I'm from England, where living together is not a big deal at all (and also in Canada it's culturally accepted of course), so would that counteract this "non culturally normal" part of our application?

So, we'd put our application together, submit it, and it looks like we'd hear within a month or so whether I am approved as a sponsor then. After that, it's just a case of how long the specific VO will take to process the application? Basically, 18 months - 2 years, and in that time she's unable to get an open work permit, as she's not from a visa exempt country. Correct? I guess there's a small chance she could get a visitors visa, but she'd need a "good" job here in Lebanon, and a contract stating she'll be returning on whatever date etc. Basically, if we want to see each other it would unlikely to be in Canada.

She is comfortable with going to an interview, wherever it may be. Indeed, with an Armenian passport she is visa exempt from Russia, so that is no problem. I'd hope that we can provide enough evidence to not have to do that - it'd be an expensive trip, and with what's happened to their situation due to the war, money isn't the most forthcoming thing. At least I have the opportunity to earn good money in Canada to help if it's necessary. To get things straight - will they just want to interview her, or me as well?

Are letters from friends also counted as references? I have a few friends who'd be comfortable making a statement, as would a former employer, although I guess the more stuff you can provide the better, whatever it is.

And yes, she's not been in Lebanon a year, so I guess we can't use the Beirut office? It's a tricky situation - she is in Lebanon on her Syrian passport, and can stay up to a year at a time with it. Then she has to get a stamp, or something, to continue to stay, but she is under no danger of being kicked out. Most of their extended family is here, so they have strong ties, and always a place to stay (we're currently looking for our own apartment). It's not like they're living in a refugee camp or something!

 

[canadianwoman]

An issue which I can see is the "us living together" part. We've lived together since the turn of the year, but it's pretty unofficial. The proof we can provide from that would be a statement from her mother confirming it. That's what I can do. It's actually not a cultural norm for an unmarried Armenian girl to live with a partner. Basically, once you get married, you move in with the husband's family. Before that, you stay home. However, I'm from England, where living together is not a big deal at all (and also in Canada it's culturally accepted of course), so would that counteract this "non culturally normal" part of our application?

If you marry her, unofficial proof of your having lived together will be enough. If you are married, you still have to prove the relationship is genuine. You can address the unusualness of her living with you by explaining your situation in the application form. I would not bother, though, unless it is something so strange that the visa officer will question what is going on. If there is an interview, the visa officer may ask her about why she decided to live with you, and so she should be comfortable with explaining her reasons.

So, we'd put our application together, submit it, and it looks like we'd hear within a month or so whether I am approved as a sponsor then. After that, it's just a case of how long the specific VO will take to process the application? Basically, 18 months - 2 years, and in that time she's unable to get an open work permit, as she's not from a visa exempt country. Correct?

She can get an open work permit if she applies inland - it comes about 10 months or so after applying. First, though, she would have to get a TRV for Canada. If you apply outland, as appears likely, she won't be able to work until she gets her PR visa and lands in Canada. She can always try getting a job in Canada through other methods, though they are difficult.
If you put together a really good application with a lot of proof of the genuineness of the relationship, you may be able to avoid an interview, which means the application will be processed more quickly.

I guess there's a small chance she could get a visitors visa, but she'd need a "good" job here in Lebanon, and a contract stating she'll be returning on whatever date etc.

Yes.

will they just want to interview her, or me as well?

Just her. Once in a while the visa officer will want to interview the sponsor as well, but they will phone. If you are visiting her at the time of the interview, and go with her to the embassy, the visa officer may interview you too. I suggest avoiding this.

Are letters from friends also counted as references? I have a few friends who'd be comfortable making a statement, as would a former employer, although I guess the more stuff you can provide the better, whatever it is.

Letters from friends/landlords/former employers/anyone who knows you two are a couple, are good evidence.

And yes, she's not been in Lebanon a year, so I guess we can't use the Beirut office? It's a tricky situation - she is in Lebanon on her Syrian passport, and can stay up to a year at a time with it. Then she has to get a stamp, or something, to continue to stay, but she is under no danger of being kicked out.

She might be able to use the Beirut office then. She does not have to have already been in Lebanon for a year - she has to have been admitted for a year. Once you are admitted and have some proof that you can stay for a year, you could apply through that office the next day. If she elects the Beirut office, and they decide that is not appropriate, the officials will send the application to the office they think best - presumably Moscow.