how to keep her PR Status

[Tri-Cities]

Hi there,
after reading a lot of posts I'm a bit confused, but also learned a lot about the subject / immigration.

Today I would like to talk about our situation - I'll try my best to explain the whole thing.

In 2007 my family - meaning my hubby, my daughter and I - moved from Germany to Vancouver Island. In Dec. 2008 we became PR's.
Life was good!

In 2014 my daughter graduated from High School and during those years in Canada I became very nervous about how to really settle down,
especially building a career after High School in BC was a huge problem in my mind.
I didn't know that my daughter didn't see it that way and she never said something. Anyways...

The two of us moved back to Germany in 2014, which I regret to the fullest, and I'll go back in about three weeks.

My daughter though started an apprenticeship in August 2015 and is supposed to graduate in Summer of 2018. Even though she likes the job she's doing her passion is a totally different story.

We talked and she told me that she wants to go back to Canada in 2018. And that's where the problem starts.

She applied for a PR Card in 2014 which is valid until 2019. First thought was, well okay the PR Card is valid she'll be fine at the airport 'crossing' the border.
But by then she won't have the minimum of 730 days she needs to keep her PR Status.

Now we don't know what to do, what options she got.

She could cancle her apprenticeship, but she's not a big fan of that idea. And on top, she and her bio dad are on the way on getting closer after the relationship between them was basically non existent. That would be a big point for her to not pack up and leave right now.

I am very concerned. It's all my fault.

I didn't know that she was doing fine with building up a career in BC even it costs a lot of money, knowing that so many people have those huge student loans and drowning in debt.
A few days ago she said, mom, I would've been fine.
I feel aweful. I told her that whatever she decides is fine with me. And, if she wants to leave it's fine too. This time it's all up to her.

I feel like she should pack up and leave as well, especially since she wants to go College anyways (I know for a fact that she isn't unhappy in Germany but she isn't happy either.) But I know she won't do it.

So question is what are the options for her? Is there anything she (or we) can do to keep her status? If she would try to cross borders with her valid PR Card how are chances that she'll get in trouble?

Thanks for your time!

T-C

 

[kateg]

She applied for a PR Card in 2014 which is valid until 2019. First thought was, well okay the PR Card is valid she'll be fine at the airport 'crossing' the border.
But by then she won't have the minimum of 730 days she needs to keep her PR Status.

Now we don't know what to do, what options she got.

If you don't meet the requirement (two years in five), or if you are unable to meet it in the first five years, you run the risk of losing status. Cards that are about to expire may prompt an investigation. They may not. If the agent notices, you may get reported. You may get warned. You may not.

 

[kk1957]

My parents have been in this situation earlier (back in 2008). They entered Canada with just 2 weeks remaining to expire and had no issues. LISTEN THIS: AS LONG AS YOUR DAUGHTERS PR CARD IS VALID AND NOT EXPIRED, NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU GET QUESTIONED ON THE BORDER, NO ONE CAN STOP YOU FROM ENTERING CANADA.

So your daughter comes back in Canada in 2018. Don't apply for a PR card renewal right away in 2019. Instead, wait! Wait until 2021 or 2022 (whatever amount of time is required to complete the obligation). Do not leave Canada in this time period. Once you have completed the time, apply now. The requirement is that you must have been present in Canada for X days FROM THE DATE OF APPLICATION.

So don't worry too much for now, keep in contact with a lawyer until 2018 but things should be ok.

THIS IS JUST MY LAYMAN ADVICE, DO NOT TAKE IT AS A LEGAL ADVICE. INSTEAD, DOUBLE CHEKC THIS WITH A LAWYER.

 

[nope]

My parents have been in this situation earlier (back in 2008). They entered Canada with just 2 weeks remaining to expire and had no issues. LISTEN THIS: AS LONG AS YOUR DAUGHTERS PR CARD IS VALID AND NOT EXPIRED, NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU GET QUESTIONED ON THE BORDER, NO ONE CAN STOP YOU FROM ENTERING CANADA.

So your daughter comes back in Canada in 2018. Don't apply for a PR card renewal right away in 2019. Instead, wait! Wait until 2021 or 2022 (whatever amount of time is required to complete the obligation). Do not leave Canada in this time period. Once you have completed the time, apply now. The requirement is that you must have been present in Canada for X days FROM THE DATE OF APPLICATION.

So don't worry too much for now, keep in contact with a lawyer until 2018 but things should be ok.

THIS IS JUST MY LAYMAN ADVICE, DO NOT TAKE IT AS A LEGAL ADVICE. INSTEAD, DOUBLE CHEKC THIS WITH A LAWYER.

Except for the last sentence, this is the worst possible advice that you could be given. It is technically true, but practically and logically wrong. When it comes to remaining a PR, only one thing matters -- THAT AT ANY TIME, YOU HAVE 730 DAYS RESIDENCE IN CANADA. It is a rolling requirement, which means that if it is true today, it could become untrue tomorrow, and has nothing to do with the card itself.

The expiry of the PR card does not matter. It has NOTHING to do with whether your daughter is a PR. Here is why the advice given above is either ignorant or evil. It is correct that if your daughter shows up with a valid PR card after having spent the past 4-5 years outside of Canada, she will be admitted. However, the agent who admits her has the option, if he is suspicious that she has not been living in Canada, of reporting her. If she's reported, she can still enter Canada -- but CIC will be investigating her status, and it is likely that she will be found to not be a PR and given 30 days to leave.

The person who misled you so seriously is also correct about another thing -- that if you get into Canada without being reported, you can live here for 2 years and then apply for a PR card. For some reason, though, they don't mention that this is not true if you are reported at the border. Formal loss of PR status comes, not when you miss the residency requirement, but when you 'test' your status, and are found to lack it. Crossing the border is such a test.

But, the above is technically correct -- she'll be admitted to Canada. Then she'll have to leave forever, 30 days later.

 

[kk1957]

@Nope Mind you language. It was an advice given to a desperate person.
@Tri-Cities: Talk to your lawyer to see if this is a possibility. Most people on this forum go strictly by the book (which is good) but the reality is that there are cases when cases like your's occur frequently. And that is why people talk to lawyers to get work done which otherwise is not possible or super difficult.

 

[Tri-Cities]

Hi

First of all - Thanks you!

I know that the (valid) PR Card has nothing to do with the PR Status. I was just hoping that she might not get questioned too much, but no one knows that.

Do the agents know how long someone has been out of country? My guess would be that a PR has to prove his status / that he meets the obligations.

Weird thing... I am glad that there are these rules, I really am. At the time I'm sad because it might take away something important from my daughter. It looks like she has to decide what's more important and where she wants to live.

 

[nope]

@Nope Mind you language. It was an advice given to a desperate person.
@Tri-Cities: Talk to your lawyer to see if this is a possibility. Most people on this forum go strictly by the book (which is good) but the reality is that there are cases when cases like your's occur frequently. And that is why people talk to lawyers to get work done which otherwise is not possible or super difficult.

I have no respect at all for people who give advice that is wrong, about subjects that they know nothing about.

Why do you think telling a desperate person something that is incorrect, and which, if followed, has the potential to destroy their life, is a good idea?

Nothing I said was rude -- it was accurate.

 

[nope]

Tri-Cities, your story is a little confused . . . How old was your daughter when she left Canada? Did she leave Canada as a minor, because you chose to? Was her apprenticeship her idea, or your idea? If leaving Canada and joining the apprenticeship program were both your ideas, and if you can demonstrate that what she is doing now was largely caused by you, that might leave her able to apply for restoration of Canadian status. Children who were PRs, who lose their PR status because of their parents' choices, can often be readmitted to Canada by applying. It might be that she was too old, and the delay caused by her finishing her apprenticeship program, will weaken her application.

What date did she leave in 2014? What date would she return in 2018? It's possible, that if she spent summers with you in Canada, that she might be able to meet the RO. Is her program full time, or does it follow an academic year?

Why didn't you guys apply for citizenship when you were eligible? It's probably too late now, because of the 'continue to reside in Canada' clause -- but if she could suspend the apprenticeship program for one year, she could come back, live with you, apply for citizenship (the Vancouver office is the fastest in the country, she would have an excellent chance of being approved within 8 months) and then decide what she wants to do.

For me, one way of looking at this is that her apprenticeship program, which you say she is not actually that interested in, is going to cause her to lose her status in the country where she wants to live. Basically, she has to decide what is more valuable to her -- and she has ~2 more years to do it, before the choice is made for her by the passage of time.

 

[kateg]

My parents have been in this situation earlier (back in 2008). They entered Canada with just 2 weeks remaining to expire and had no issues. LISTEN THIS: AS LONG AS YOUR DAUGHTERS PR CARD IS VALID AND NOT EXPIRED, NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU GET QUESTIONED ON THE BORDER, NO ONE CAN STOP YOU FROM ENTERING CANADA.

This is true, but misleading.

If you come back with 2 weeks on the card, you may or may not be reported. You will be let in. If you are reported, you will likely lose Permanent Resident status.

So your daughter comes back in Canada in 2018. Don't apply for a PR card renewal right away in 2019. Instead, wait! Wait until 2021 or 2022 (whatever amount of time is required to complete the obligation). Do not leave Canada in this time period. Once you have completed the time, apply now. The requirement is that you must have been present in Canada for X days FROM THE DATE OF APPLICATION.

This is also good advice, if you are not reported at the border. When you apply, they will look back 5 years. So, if you can cross the border, then staying for two years before renewing would be a very good thing to do.

 

[kateg]

Do the agents know how long someone has been out of country? My guess would be that a PR has to prove his status / that he meets the obligations.

A better question might be "can agents know?". There is a limit to what they can show on the initial screen. If the agent cares to dig, yes, they can find out. With the information sharing agreement with the US, they can also now track land border crossings. With fewer holes in the system, they are more likely to trust the data they have.

To answer your question, yes and no.

They have a record of entries and exits, and these are associated with passports and cards.

If (for example) you fly to Germany on a German passport, there will likely be a record in a database with your name, birthday, and passport number. This is provided to the government of Canada by the airline. Your CoPR is also associated with a passport based on name, birthday, and passport number.

Given these two, it is possible for the agent to search and link the records. If the passport number matches, it's easy. If it doesn't (for example, you renewed a passport), then they have to do fuzzy searches (name + birthday + country) matches. This leads to false positives - there may be two German men named Hans Müller.

For criminal records, they tend to be cautious - if there is a terrorist with your name and a similar birthday, they will assume you are him and make you prove you are not.
For immigration records, they tend to be less so - if there is a permanent resident with your name and a similar birthday, they assume you are not a permanent resident until you prove you are. This is partially why the PR card is a big deal - without it, they have to look in the system for someone who is a P/R with your info and hope it's you.

The practical outcome of this is simple: The system may be able to show them your last date of entry or exit, if it was possible to link the two records. It may not. If it does not, the person can find out if they are willing to take the time to piece it together.

This matters little, though - if they want to know, they can ask you. Lying is misrepresentation, which is bad.

 

[Leon]

If she tries to enter Canada in 2018, she may get reported for not meeting the RO. If that happens, she would have the chance to appeal but she would not have very good odds at winning the appeal because she does not have any humanitarian grounds for not meeting the RO.

As you say, she had graduated high school by the time you left so she can not say she was removed from Canada as a minor or at least not that she could not have returned to Canada with you now. Studying outside Canada is not considered humanitarian grounds.

If she manages to enter without getting reported, she could stay for 2 years straight and at that point meet the RO again and be able to renew her PR card and keep her PR status.

So basically it is up to her. If she wants to keep her PR, she should break off her apprenticeship and move with you. If she wants to move in 2018, there are no guarantees that she can.

Building a career in BC does not necessarily mean going to college and having large student loan debts. It is also possible to do apprenticeships in Canada.

Is your daughters apprenticeship even going to be useful in Canada? Will it get her a job? In many cases, education and apprenticeships do not translate well between countries. If that is the case here, there would be no reason for her to continue the apprenticeship if she wants to build a career in BC.

 

[Tri-Cities]

Hello

I'm trying to explain as good as I can.

My daughter was 18 by the time, almost 19 when we left. Yes, everything was my idea because I kinda panicked about her career possibilities after HS. I cannot explain where that came from but it did. So I said she should go back and get paid for the apprenticeship instead of paying college and starting life with debt.
As long as we were living on Van Island everything was good. For me everything changed when we had to move to Vancouver.
I know for a fact that she trusted me and that I made her believe it would be best to leave.
You guys have no idea how I feel today about this.

She got an apprenticeship in a lawyers office, becoming a Rechtsanwalts- und Notarfachangestellte which is somewhere inbetween Legal assistant and paralegal. And I am not sure if she can use that. Maybe with an immigration lawywer (lol).

She likes it a lot but it's not her passion.

I don't wanna push her again and decide for her. Being 20 now she has to decide herself.

I just hear her talk about Canada every day. I believe there are two points making it hard for her to just pack up and leave. First off all breaking up her relationship with her bio dad again (he woudln't understand and he would be mad and I guess she would feel guilty) and second of all, she isn't someone who likes to not finish what she started.

But I hear you guys and I realize that the only way is to make a clear decision.

Oh when I asked about the agents can see or what they know it wasn't about lying to them. It was more in regards to being prepared because of what they know. As I mentioned in my other thread I'm not a good lair and that's why I'm going to tell them how it is.

I hate what I did. It sucks.

 

[Tri-Cities]

Ooops, I forgot.... the reason that we didn't apply for Citizenship was the thought of keeping the German, which would have been expensive and a lot of work. And we never felt it was neccessary.

@Leon
yeah, you're right about the loans and College and stuff. I really don't know what made me go crazy and why I couldn't figure out how to handle it.

She told me a few minutes ago that she is confused and she'll think about what's best for her. All I can do is support her as much as I can. And hope. (I feel like she doesn't belong here, not at all).

Thanks to all of you - it's good to have someone to talk to.

T-C

 

[Leon]

So understandably she is torn but she has to make her own decision and you have to make yours. Once you move, she might long for Canada even more and will decide to follow you or she might go the other way, lean towards her dad and stay in Germany. Whichever she decides, has to be right for her.

I don't know how well her apprenticeship would translate. Plenty of things that are apprenticeships in Germany tend to be diplomas in Canada but she is still young so even if her apprenticeship doesn't translate, she can still re-train in that field or another one.

 

[Tri-Cities]

I have to agree - we both have to decide what's best for us, no matter which way we choose.

About her career, I think that if she would come back she would start all over again. She isn't really an office lady. She always wanted to be an interior designer. She actually took every class in HS that would've helped and she worked as an intern at Ikea and loved it.

I can picture her doing that, we'll see.