Help Please! Conjugal Relationship (Cdn citizen and South African Citizen)

[maggie123]

I seriously need some help/adivce/input from people who know the ins and outs of CIC. I am looking for advice on deciding whether to apply inland or outland, questions about open work permits, when to do an outland medical and declaring our relationship on recent visitor application as "friend" (we will be in a one year conjugal relationship one month from now).

I am a 30 yr old female Canadian Citizen and I am dating a 23 yr old South African. I met him while I was in South Africa volunteering for 3 months (he was a employee at the company I was volunteering at). We started dating 25 March 2008. My 90 day South African visitor visa expired so I left South Africa and came back to Canada at the end of May/08. I was in Canada for the weekend and I had to go back to see him. I flew back to South Africa for 4 weeks, then I had to return to Canada as I started a full time permanent job with the government at the beginning of July/08. We managed to get a visitor visa for him to visit Canada, we did not state our relationship (because obviously they wouldn't have given him his one time entry visa if we stated "girlfriend"). He was granted a one time entry visa (under the guise that he wanted to travel Canada). The contact list on the visitor visa form was all female volunteers and the Immigration Officer in Pretoria, South Africa called his cell phone and asked about his relationship with all three girls, to which he responded "friends". So...his visit to Canada was for 2.5 months, from end of Sept/08 until mid Dec/08 and then he returned to South Africa. I then took all of my vacation time and flew to South Africa Christmas Day to be there for the holdiays and over new years for 2 weeks. He is now applying for his next visa, a multi entry exit visa (Ive looked into work visa, student visa etc but this is the safest bet to get him back into Canada). He will be sending it off next week- I'm hoping everything will be okay. We are submitting it before the 25 March/09 because we cannot state our relationship (one year anniversary) otherwise he won't be let in! He would like to come to Canada for May/09 and then file for PR once he is here.

That's our situation, the problem is the next step...filing for a conjugal relationship under PR. We intend to do this in the late summer 2009. We have everything in order, we spend $500/month in phone calls, we send messages/emails all day long every 30 mins, his name is on our apartment rent lease, he is my beneficiary, we have a joint bank account and I send him money every week and I am in his will. We are not yet engaged (I refuse to get engaged for the purpose of immigration) but it is coming in the next few months- we are trying to have the most normal of relationship given our circumstances.

I just don't know whether to apply inland or outland. If we apply inland, we don't right of appeal, it could be more than 18 months, but from what I can understand he can get an open work visa so he can at least work while waiting (or am I wrong?). If we apply outland (mail his forms back), Pretoria processing time is 6 months which is nice, he won't be able to work but I don't know what to do about the medical exam. From my understanding it has to be done in South Africa by certain physicians (like, he wouldn't be able to get a Canadian physican in Canada to do the medical right?). If he does it before he comes to Canada in May/09 it shows preplanning, that he would be coming to Canada under a visitor visa knowing that he would not be 'returning'. If he goes back to South Africa in the fall/09 to get the medical done, it means that we are waiting longer to submit our PR claim and he would not be able to work (if we apply inland he gets the open work visa right?), but the greater fear is that if he goes to South Africa for a month in fall/09, and then came back to Canada at the end of 2009, will the immigration officers at the airport let him back in after seeing that he would have stayed 5+ months on his multientry exit visa, returned to South Africa for a month and now wants back in for no good reason...

This whole immigration situation is totally stressing us out, obviously! We just want to be together and get on with our lives as a normal couple. Thankfully my job is more than enough to provide for the both of us very comfortably so that is not our main issue. Its him not being able to work and contribute that is pretty hard for him to deal with, he had a very difficult time last time sitting in the apartment for 2.5 months waiting for me to come home from work even though my family and friends tried to take him out and be there for him as much as possible.

We just dont know what to do about this PR situation...we understand the hurdles we face and that a conjugal relationship is the hardest to prove, we just need some advice on how to best approach immigration and PR. Inland or Outland? What about the inland open work visa? What about the outland medical? Also, when we apply for PR will immigration punish us for classifying our relationship (on his visitor visas) as "friendship"? We are hoping to get around this because a conjugal relationship is one that has been in effect for one year- after March 25/09 we will officially be considered as a conjugal relationship.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Mrs.BWL]

I totally understand how difficult the distance between SA and Canada is as hubby and I are both originally from there (I'm now Canadian and he lives in the UK).

As for the conjugal issue, I'm not very familiar with that route, but I understand it's only really for people who cannot marry or live together for reasons beyond their control (same sex couples in countries where homosexuality is illegal, for example), so you should probably do a little more research into whether this is the best route for you. Check out the CIC manuals (and the guide if you haven't already read it) for more info.

We did manage to get 2 visas for hubby coming from SA to visit me in 2001 and 2003 from SA. I can't remember if we stated I was his girlfriend in those applications, but we have in most of them (he's come over a number of times). They do notice these things. They asked every time if it was the same girl and even asked on his last application why he didn't mention his plans to marry in Canada on a previous visit, so you have to be pretty careful on your applications. It's a bit of a rock and a hard place situation.

Good luck!

 

[mitamata]

Honestly, I don't believe you could sponsor him as a conjugal partner. Yes, you would be in a conjugal relationship, but in order to be able to sponsor him, you need to prove that you absolutely can not qualify for common-law or spousal application. Not that you didn't want to, but that you just could not. Meaning you have to prove you couldn't move to South Africa and that he couldn't move to Canada to start a common-law relationship aka live together. You also have to prove that you could not marry him - this would work if you were unable to visit each other or if you couldn't get the paperwork done for example. Unfortunately, "I refuse to get engaged for the purpose of immigration" alone does not mean you can sponsor him as a conjugal partner.
Honestly, I've been stalking two forums dedicated to immigrating to Canada for a year now and I've not heard of someone say they've had a successful conjugal partner sponsorship. Maybe they're just quiet, but I really think it's because it's so hard to fit the criteria.

I know from personal experience how hard it is to endure the distance. My husband and I met in 2003 and until today, we've been living on seperate continents (I'm in Slovenia, he's in Canada). We get one visit a year, due to lack of vacation time and plane ticket costs (we were both in college until last year) and those are too brief (2-5 weeks). We've been at it for over 5 years. We were waiting until we were ready for marriage and finally got married last year. On the plus side though, we've gotten tonnes of relationship evidence in those 5 years, so at least putting together the application wasn't too difficult.

Since your relationship is headed that way anyway, I would recommend enduring the distance a bit longer until you're ready to get married and filing a spousal application afterwards. Personally, I'd file an outland application, since Pretoria has pretty decent processing times. But that's just because I know I would be stressed to no end until I got an approval and 18 months of stress would be too much for me. With everything you already have (visits, phone calls, bank account, ...), I'm sure you'll just breeze through the processing.

As for the medical exam... if you will be doing an outland application, he should still be able to do the medical exam in Canada. They are the same everywhere, the only difference is where the results are sent. Just make sure to list the correct visa office when doing it, so the results get sent to the right place so it doesn't cause delays later. He should ask the DMP (designated medical practitioner) about it before doing it.

However you decide to go about this, I wish you two the best of luck. The immigration is a stressful process even if everything goes smoothly, so you'll need a lot of patience. But it's all worth it. Good luck!

 

[maggie123]

Thanks for your help!

I am a little confused with the whole definition of "Conjugal Relationship", this is what I have found on CIC's website:

You can sponsor a person as your common-law partner if

that person is of the opposite or same sex,
you and that other person have cohabited in a conjugal relationship for a period of at least one year, and
your relationship with that person is continuing, even though you are temporarily living apart.


You can sponsor a person as a conjugal partner(1) if

that person is of the opposite or same sex,
that person is residing outside Canada (that is, has, for legal purposes, a fixed, permanent and principal home outside Canada), and
you have maintained a conjugal relationship with that person for at least one year, that is you have been in a committed and mutually interdependent relationship of some permanence where you have combined your affairs to the extent possible.
(1) This last category is intended for partners of Canadian sponsors who would ordinarily apply as

common-law partners but cannot meet the definition, that is were not able to live together continuously for one year with their sponsor, or
spouses, but marriage to their sponsor is usually not an available option to them,
usually because of marital status or sexual orientation, combined with an immigration barrier (for example, rules preventing partner and sponsor of long stays in one another’s countries).

If your sponsorship is successful, your conjugal partner becomes a permanent resident of Canada but cannot exercise any rights or privileges associated with common-law status until you have cohabited for at least one year.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/applications/guides/3900E2.asp

I think we fall under conjugal because my partner and I have not co-habitated for one year because of the immigration barrier which prevents us from long stays in one anothers countries [he would love to come here but there is the Canadian Immigration barrier and I'm allowed 90 days there, which I have maxed out previously and now I'm tied down with a job and limited vacation time!]. I would love to apply under commonlaw, but we haven't cohabited for a year because we are physically apart. Obviously when I was in South Africa I was living with him and when he was in Canada for 2.5 months we were living in our apartment. It would be so much easier to apply as a spouse but our wedding would not be until December 2010, and if we move it forward for the purpose of immigration, we aren't really celebrating us.

Does anyone know if a one (plus) year relationship will be taken seriously and get processed? Thanks for any comments, anything is helpful!!

: )

 

[ariell]

I think mitamata is right. Plus, I think you could have alot of problems if you get a visa saying he "just wants to travel" and then you submit a sponsorship application. CIC could see this as misrepresentation. I know others have tried to do this, so I would wait until you get more feedback on this before you proceed. I also don't think you can apply under conjugal. Even though you can only go to South Africa for 90 days, that is plenty of time to get married. Anyway, I don't mean to discourage you but I know the regulations for conjugal sponsorship are quite strict so you are better off knowing the facts now than submitting an application and spending alot of time and money only to not get the response you're hoping for. Anyway, I wish you the best of luck.

 

[Mrs.BWL]

I recommend you read OP 2 here:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/op/index.asp

Specifically check out pages 31-34.


Also, you may want to pop over to roadtocanada.com and look at the Family Class forum. There are folks there with some experience with conjugal applications and they may be able to give you some first hand advice (just do a quick skim / search as there have been some discussions on the topic lately).

 

[mitamata]

I found another thread on a different forum about this subject.

There's a long quote in there from a manual intend for CIC officials (I see it was posted in the post above). The quotes that make me think you do not qualify are things like:

"In most cases, the foreign partner is also not able to marry their sponsor and qualify as a spouse."

"The conjugal partner category is mainly intended for partners where neither common-law partner status nor marriage is possible, usually because of marital status or *censored word*ual orientation..."

"If a foreign national could have married their Canadian sponsor or lived with them, and chose not to do so, then it is questionable whether they have the significant degree of commitment characteristic of a conjugal relationship"

Of course, at the same time they have things like:

IRPA brought CIC's immigration legislation into conformity with the Modernization of Benefits and Obligations Act. Because of Supreme Court decisions, the choice not to marry is a constitutionally protected choice. Thus, CIC cannot require couples to marry in order to immigrate.

And, most importantly, this:

Although the intention of the conjugal-partner category is to accommodate those few Canadians
with foreign partners who can neither marry nor live together, inability to marry cannot be an
absolute requirement, since this could have the effect of “forcing” those couples to marry who may
have chosen not to do so. Persons who have established and maintained a conjugal relationship
for one year and who do not intend to marry might be conjugal partners if they have been unable
to cohabit because of an immigration impediment or other serious barrier. The key to determining
whether an individual is a conjugal partner is whether they are in a conjugal relationship with their
sponsor and whether there is a compelling barrier to continuous cohabitation.

Now, reading all of that, I would say you could qualify. It seems to me you have to prove you're practically married, it's just not legal yet, which seems like quite a task, but still possible. But somebody else could say what I originally said: you could marry, but didn't want to, so you don't qualify. So nobody here can tell you for sure it will either pass or not.

Personally, I don't know if I'd risk it, I'm not good with handling disappointments and a rejection would be a huge one. But you can appeal or reapply (for outland anyway), so it's not the end of the world. It will just mean a lot more stress.

I think ultimately it's up to you if you're willing to chance it. If you, make sure you have all the evidence you can get. It's a tough category to take on.

Oh, and for the record: I take it back, I'm sorry. Technically speaking, you could apply as conjugal partners. From all the stories I've read, I guess I just came to assume you can't if you have the ability to marry. According to the manual, that is not the case. So, good luck! Again

 

[frolic]

The part that always catches my eye when reading those definitions is this...

you have maintained a conjugal relationship with that person for at least one year, that is you have been in a committed and mutually interdependent relationship of some permanence where you have combined your affairs to the extent possible

Have you combined your affairs? On each others insurance? Bank acounts? Wills? Employee benefits perhaps even? Benificiaries?

If you are both living seperate lives and are just in a long distance relationship then you do not match the definition of "conjugal"...you are just dating. Which you have even said yourself...

I am a 30 yr old female Canadian Citizen and I am dating a 23 yr old South African.

 

[maggie123]

I'm even more confused about conjugual relationship or commonlaw! Commonlaw clearly states that we have to live with each other for 1 year, which we cannot do. If CIC would let him in to Canada he would live here for a year happily, but he can't even do that under a visitor visa (because of the 6 month limit). Since I am the one supporting both of us, I can't give up my job in Canada to live in South Africa. I have thought of taking a year of unpaid leave [I won't be able to do that until I've been working for a year and our lease is up in October/09] to go to South Africa to be with him while immigration stuff is being sorted out, but then where does the money come from?! Idealistically I would love to go live in SA (although I can't get a job even with a Masters because the unemployment rate there is so high), but realistically my job is here and our lives would be better here.

So...I'm reading the OP2 document and I'm 95% sure we are conjugal, but it's soooo open to interpretation...

5.45 What is a conjugal partner?
-for foreign national partners of Canadian or permanent resident sponsors who would ordinarily apply as common-law partners but for the fact that they have not been able to live together continuously for one year, usually because of an immigration impediment.

This would be us because we can't live together for one year continuously without breaking visa regulations, let alone get the visa's in the first place.

...As well, for these individuals, marriage is usually not an available option.

It says "usually" and not "always". Like it mentions on this post already, CIC cannot require couples to marry in order to immigrate. We want a wedding in SA, we also want to enjoy being engaged. My sister is engaged to be married in Spring 2010 and we dont want to upstage her wedding and get married in the Winter of 2010 (we want to get married in the winter because it is summer in South Africa and we want to get married on the beach next to where he lives). It's a tough balance, what would look "good" for immigration and what is good for us and our families...

Still under 5.45:
The conjugal partner category is mainly intended for partners where neither common-law partner status nor marriage is possible.

Ahhh! So I'm guessing we are the exception to "mainly", but it's the "neither...nor" that gets me because it usually states "or...". No we cannot claim common-law because we can't live simultaneously for one year together. Marriage is possible (and in the picture) yet CIC JUST stated in the paragraph before that they cannot require couples to marry in order to immigrate!

5.47 Assessment of Conjugal partner relationships

I say we are "dating" because there is no other word for it at 11 months. In one month we will have reached one year together at which point we can consider ourselves as "conjugal".

We are in a "marriage-like" realtionship. Under 5.47, CIC requires proof of that relationship, or as they refer to it... "evidence".

He is my beneficiary on my insurance provided by work. I am in his will (for half of his worth, his parents are named for the other half). We have jointly signed a lease for our apartment in Canada. We have a joint bank account and I send him money every week to support him (he keeps reciepts and everything). The renters insurance for the apartment is for both of us. I paid for his flight to come to Canada, I've been to South Africa 3 times in the last year! Our phone bills are $500/month! I am not worried at all about providing evidence of our relationship, because it's all there...I just want our forms to be processed through the right channel to avoid any delays.

 

[ariell]

I really think you do not qualify for conjugal.

Here are a few quotes from the OP2 manual:

"This category was created for exceptional circumstances – for foreign national partners of
Canadian or permanent resident sponsors who would ordinarily apply as common-law partners
but for the fact that they have not been able to live together continuously for one year, usually
because of an immigration impediment. In most cases, the foreign partner is also not able to
marry their sponsor and qualify as a spouse. .......If a Canadian and a foreign national can get married or can live together and establish a common-law relationship, this is what they are expected to have done
before they submit sponsorship and immigration applications.........The conjugal partner category is mainly intended for partners where neither common-law partner status nor marriage is possible, usually because of marital
status or *censored word*ual orientation (both analogous grounds of discrimination under the Charter),
combined with an immigration barrier. .......[The conjugal category] is not intended to be used to avoid
the usual requirement to be a spouse or common-law partner before immigrating. .......People who are dating or who are thinking about marrying or living together and establishing a common-law relationship are NOT in a
conjugal relationship,
" You are able to marry. You are just choosing not to. And that's fine but not necessarily fine for CIC.

The only people that I have heard of having a successful conjugal application are those that have an actual impediment to marrying. For instance, in the Phillipines, divorce is illegal. So if you are already married (though separated), you cannot legally marry someone else. So that is a true impediment to marrying, not just a choice. I have heard only of one person having a successful conjugal sponsorship and I believe that they were together for quite a few years but could not marry because the woman was Phillipino and had previously married so she could not get a divorce. However, they had a long and complicated wait before their application was finally approved.

If it were really so easy to apply for conjugal, believe me, we would have all already done that. Pretty much everyone here has had to be separated from their spouse during the sponsorship process. I would really urge you to read some more about this and possibly consult with an immigration lawyer before going ahead with a conjugal sponsorship application.

 

[maggie123]

I recommend you read OP 2 here:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/op/index.asp

Specifically check out pages 31-34.


Also, you may want to pop over to roadtocanada.com and look at the Family Class forum.

Hello Mrs. BWL,

Thank you for the OP2 link, I already had it in my pile of stuff so you brought it to the surface and I read those parts very carefully! And thank you also for the roadtocanada.com, I've been reading it all evening and can't pull myself away!

It seems as if, for our situation, it would be best to apply outland.

So that's one of my concerns dealt with... now I'm just left with what class to apply under...I have been reading a lot of posts where people are getting married to help speed up the process and avoid the conjugual route...yet it goes against what CIC says, CIC cannot require couples to marry in order to immigrate but what, are they secretly highly recommending it??!! It's like a catch-22!

Through default (not married therefore not spousal route, not living under same roof for one continuous year therefore not common-law) we are left with conjugual! But I don't like the failure rates of this class... I'm not worried about proving our relationship, I'm worried about Immigration saying something silly like
a) we could marry (going against Supreme Court decisions)
or b) could cohabitate for one year in SA (4 x 3 month South African visas on my behalf -Cdns are automatcially granted 90day visitor visas upon arrival in SA as long as they have a return flight booked- but this is barely attainable because with no job, there would be no funds to book those flights or survive a year without a job!)

Ugh...I'm going to bed now!

 

[maggie123]

" You are able to marry. You are just choosing not to. And that's fine but not necessarily fine for CIC.

Say if in the Summer/09 while he is in Canada (hopefully) we have a civil marriage at city hall (we reside in Ontario which I've read takes 3 months to even get the marriage certificate which would be submitted with the PR application, but we also plan on flying to Saskatchwan, Alberta and BC to visit my extended family- maybe the wait times are less there?), would the certificate along with all of our piles of evidence satisfy CIC? I've read a lot of people do this and then plan for a "proper" wedding at a later date. But then what do you do for the spousal application forms when asked about length of engagment, wedding, recpetion, honeymoon etc?

Okay, now im going to bed! So much worry and the PR application process hasn't even started!

 

[frolic]

He is my beneficiary on my insurance provided by work. I am in his will (for half of his worth, his parents are named for the other half). We have jointly signed a lease for our apartment in Canada. We have a joint bank account and I send him money every week to support him (he keeps reciepts and everything). The renters insurance for the apartment is for both of us. I paid for his flight to come to Canada, I've been to South Africa 3 times in the last year! Our phone bills are $500/month! I am not worried at all about providing evidence of our relationship, because it's all there...I just want our forms to be processed through the right channel to avoid any delays.

Ok so these things would go far to proving that you have the "mutual interdependence and some permanence" necessary to qualify as conjugal. BUT...you started daing Mar 25, 2008...that does not mean that you had progressed to the point where your relationship would have qualified THAT very day. If you started dating him that day...AND gave him a bank card, put him on your will, and signed the lease with him all at the same time I would be very surprised.

And since they require you have maintained a conjugal relationship with that person for at least one year you still would not qualify.

I am just trying to play devil's advocate here because just from the description you are at the point in your relationship that I was in mine a year and a half ago. I was dating, and looking at ways we could be together. And as you now know...that is a difficult thing. BUT, as a Canadian I know there are people that will do many things to get into Canada...including prey on people already here to try to get in. Balancing those two things...reuniting family, while protecting Canadians from those who would commit fraud, is a tricky thing. So they have some rules...you just look like you are trying to rush through the rules, or bypass them. In the end you could get married if you wanted to go faster but you chose not too. CIC will look at your situation and probably decide the same.

 

[Flori]

I have one question Maggie...
Do you love him???

 

[travel_fan]

At the end of the day - immigration is going to look for proof of a genuine, committed relationship. Since there are no real barriers to entering a marriage - you're best bet (if you are truly committed to each other) is to bite the bullet and get married. You are in an international relationship and there are many practical challenges that you will have to deal with.

I think you are going to have issues if you keep applying for visitor visas - and then apply for a conjugal visa at a later date. The very fact that you will have to prove your relationship during the time frame he applied for visitor visas and never mentioned your relationship. This is not going to go over well with immigration.

You may want to change your thinking re getting married for immigration purposes. If you truly love each other and are committed to each other - this is your best chance to have a life together (short of you moving to South Africa). Having a "normal" relationship internationally is not like being in a relationship with someone already living in Canada.

I think many of us started out with the same hopes as you - and quickly (or not so quickly) realize that:
1. Living a "normal" life together is going to take time - approximately a year in most cases (if you're lucky)
2. Living life as a "normal" couple will likely have to entail marriage (especially if you are involved with someone from a country that doesn't have comparable wealth to Canada) and then applying via a spousal visa application

As right or wrong it may all seem - these are the realities you will both have to deal with.

I don't know many people who have had success with conjugal visa applications - I think that is pretty rare. Even having a legal marriage does not guarantee he can get a visa and enter Canada. However your chances will be significantly higher.

Good luck with it all.