Help me evaluating my RO

[soulred]

Hello,
I did soft landing on March 6th 2020, I drove from US to Vancouver.
I re-entered US on March 9th 2020.

I am planning to permanently move to Canada on Feb 20th 2023.

If I plan to stay through and through till 5 years are completed from March 6th 2020 ( which is March 6th 2025? ), how many days will I fulfill for RO?

Also, the PR card says its expiring on July 24th 2025. Does this date mean anything for RO? Or is the RO end-limit date is March 6th 2025?

Thanks in advance!

 

[armoured]

Sounds like two times 365 days plus however many days between Feb 20 and march 6. Plus the three days or so from 2020.

 

[dpenabill]

Hello,
I did soft landing on March 6th 2020, I drove from US to Vancouver.
I re-entered US on March 9th 2020.

I am planning to permanently move to Canada on Feb 20th 2023.

If I plan to stay through and through till 5 years are completed from March 6th 2020 ( which is March 6th 2025? ), how many days will I fulfill for RO?

Also, the PR card says its expiring on July 24th 2025. Does this date mean anything for RO? Or is the RO end-limit date is March 6th 2025?

Thanks in advance!

Many know well, not just the words but by being there, doing that, the famous line in Robert Burns poem to a mouse, "the best laid plans of mice and men . . . " and yeah, it's about things going awry.

Compliance with the Residency Obligation is about counting days. There is NO "end-limit date," rather the RO is ongoing.

For purposes of calculating RO compliance, the date the PR card expires is NOT relevant.

I understand you are trying to makes plans which will help you avoid a breach of the PR RO. But it warrants emphasizing that cutting-it-close has risks. And it appears you are indeed cutting-it-close. You might recall events occurring shortly after you landed in 2020 and the impact that had on travel. Of course the bigger risk is that personal stuff happens.

When cutting-it-close, there is no substitute for the PR personally and carefully keeping track, counting the days. No one else can reliably do that for you. I will restate how the calculation is done below, even though you most likely know how it works (it is just about counting days).

Scores and scores of soft-landing PRs cut-it-close. And things do not go according to plan. There is no shortage of tales of woe reported here by those who planned to come to Canada in time to meet their RO but, well, stuff happens. Mom gets sick. There's a car wreck, or unexpected medical issue, and time stuck in hospital and recovery. An employment or other financial opportunity that is just too compelling to give up. Yeah, stuff happens.

The good news is that CBSA (at the Port-of-Entry) and to some extent IRCC, tend to be quite lenient in how it enforces the RO with new PRs (first five years plus a bit perhaps). So, for example, if you do not come to Canada until late March 2023, or so, more than 1095 days since you were last in Canada (which would mean you are for sure in breach of the RO, and obviously so), so far as we have seen the odds should be very good there will be no problem at the PoE, no RO enforcement proceedings. No guarantees however.

Moreover, that would not be problem-free, since it will require staying in Canada two full years, without leaving, to get into compliance. During that time it would not be prudent to engage in any transactions that would trigger a RO compliance examination (no PR card applications, even for a lost card for example, and no sponsorship applications, and NOT leaving Canada).


Calculating RO compliance for a PR who landed March 6, 2020 --

-- For the first five years, until the fifth year anniversary of the day of landing (March 6, 2025):​

-- -- the way the RO is phrased in the statute, and IRCC information, is that the PR must be IN Canada enough days to spend a total of at least 730 days in Canada by the fifth year anniversary of the day of landing (March 6, 2025); so count the days IN Canada and add the days left on the calendar until March 6, 2025, and if that total is at least 730, the PR is in compliance​

-- -- another way to count is to simply keep track of the days spent outside Canada; as long as the PR does not spend more than 1095 days outside Canada, the PR is in compliance​

​

-- As of and after the fifth year anniversary of the day of landing (March 6, 2025), RO compliance is based on the preceding five years, requiring the PR to be IN Canada (with some exceptions) at least 730 days within that five year time period; this means there is a new calculation every day​

Some observations about applying this:

If a PR is outside Canada for more than 1095 days prior to the fifth year anniversary of landing, the PR is in breach as of the day they exceed this (or, technically, after 1096 days counting the extra day in a leap year), and importantly, the PR will continue to be in breach for at least the next two years.

Remember that there is a different, new five year time period beginning the fifth year anniversary of the day of landing. For you that will be March 6, 2025. So, on March 14, 2025, for example, the relevant time period for you will be March 14, 2020 to March 14, 2025; that means the days you were in Canada March 6 to March 9, 2020 do NOT count (they will be outside the relevant five years as of March 10, 2025).

 

[canuck78]

Hello,
I did soft landing on March 6th 2020, I drove from US to Vancouver.
I re-entered US on March 9th 2020.

I am planning to permanently move to Canada on Feb 20th 2023.

If I plan to stay through and through till 5 years are completed from March 6th 2020 ( which is March 6th 2025? ), how many days will I fulfill for RO?

Also, the PR card says its expiring on July 24th 2025. Does this date mean anything for RO? Or is the RO end-limit date is March 6th 2025?

Thanks in advance!

Do you plan on taking more than 14 days of vacation outside Canada? will your job require any travel outside Canada? You have left yourself very little buffer time. Would also not suggest applying to renew your PR card until a few months after you have reached 730 days to try an avoid secondary inspection. The best option is to make sure you always have a valid PR card and you remain compliant with your RO or else your life becomes more complicated.

 

[soulred]

Many know well, not just the words but by being there, doing that, the famous line in Robert Burns poem to a mouse, "the best laid plans of mice and men . . . " and yeah, it's about things going awry.

Compliance with the Residency Obligation is about counting days. There is NO "end-limit date," rather the RO is ongoing.

For purposes of calculating RO compliance, the date the PR card expires is NOT relevant.

I understand you are trying to makes plans which will help you avoid a breach of the PR RO. But it warrants emphasizing that cutting-it-close has risks. And it appears you are indeed cutting-it-close. You might recall events occurring shortly after you landed in 2020 and the impact that had on travel. Of course the bigger risk is that personal stuff happens.

When cutting-it-close, there is no substitute for the PR personally and carefully keeping track, counting the days. No one else can reliably do that for you. I will restate how the calculation is done below, even though you most likely know how it works (it is just about counting days).

Scores and scores of soft-landing PRs cut-it-close. And things do not go according to plan. There is no shortage of tales of woe reported here by those who planned to come to Canada in time to meet their RO but, well, stuff happens. Mom gets sick. There's a car wreck, or unexpected medical issue, and time stuck in hospital and recovery. An employment or other financial opportunity that is just too compelling to give up. Yeah, stuff happens.

The good news is that CBSA (at the Port-of-Entry) and to some extent IRCC, tend to be quite lenient in how it enforces the RO with new PRs (first five years plus a bit perhaps). So, for example, if you do not come to Canada until late March 2023, or so, more than 1095 days since you were last in Canada (which would mean you are for sure in breach of the RO, and obviously so), so far as we have seen the odds should be very good there will be no problem at the PoE, no RO enforcement proceedings. No guarantees however.

Moreover, that would not be problem-free, since it will require staying in Canada two full years, without leaving, to get into compliance. During that time it would not be prudent to engage in any transactions that would trigger a RO compliance examination (no PR card applications, even for a lost card for example, and no sponsorship applications, and NOT leaving Canada).


Calculating RO compliance for a PR who landed March 6, 2020 --

-- For the first five years, until the fifth year anniversary of the day of landing (March 6, 2025):​

-- -- the way the RO is phrased in the statute, and IRCC information, is that the PR must be IN Canada enough days to spend a total of at least 730 days in Canada by the fifth year anniversary of the day of landing (March 6, 2025); so count the days IN Canada and add the days left on the calendar until March 6, 2025, and if that total is at least 730, the PR is in compliance​

-- -- another way to count is to simply keep track of the days spent outside Canada; as long as the PR does not spend more than 1095 days outside Canada, the PR is in compliance​

​

-- As of and after the fifth year anniversary of the day of landing (March 6, 2025), RO compliance is based on the preceding five years, requiring the PR to be IN Canada (with some exceptions) at least 730 days within that five year time period; this means there is a new calculation every day​

Some observations about applying this:

If a PR is outside Canada for more than 1095 days prior to the fifth year anniversary of landing, the PR is in breach as of the day they exceed this (or, technically, after 1096 days counting the extra day in a leap year), and importantly, the PR will continue to be in breach for at least the next two years.

Remember that there is a different, new five year time period beginning the fifth year anniversary of the day of landing. For you that will be March 6, 2025. So, on March 14, 2025, for example, the relevant time period for you will be March 14, 2020 to March 14, 2025; that means the days you were in Canada March 6 to March 9, 2020 do NOT count (they will be outside the relevant five years as of March 10, 2025).

Thank you for the detailed response.
Correct me if I am wrong here :
If we somehow try to enter Canada say on Aug 1st 2023 with our PR cards (already in breach of RO) and somehow get successful in entering; && we are committing in staying in Canada for 2.5 years at stretch, its still possible that we get the PR extension later when its time.


We are on H1bs, and we are very very confused whether we should get rid of it and move OR, choose 3x the net savings $$$ here in US YOY than if we become Canadians and give up on PR. Hence I am just trying to sense a worst case scenario where we are late.

 

[Ponga]

Thank you for the detailed response.
Correct me if I am wrong here :
If we somehow try to enter Canada say on Aug 1st 2023 with our PR cards (already in breach of RO) and somehow get successful in entering; && we are committing in staying in Canada for 2.5 years at stretch, its still possible that we get the PR extension later when its time.


We are on H1bs, and we are very very confused whether we should get rid of it and move OR, choose 3x the net savings $$$ here in US YOY than if we become Canadians and give up on PR. Hence I am just trying to sense a worst case scenario where we are late.

You do not have to `try' to enter Canada. Even if the CBSA officer creates a 44(1) report because of failing to meet the R.O., you will still be allowed to enter Canada.

You would not be getting a PR extension. PR status does NOT expire. The PR Card expires and can be renewed if you meet the R.O. to qualify to maintain your PR status.

IMHO, consider more than just the net savings YOY to live in the U.S. when weighing your options.

 

[canuck78]

Thank you for the detailed response.
Correct me if I am wrong here :
If we somehow try to enter Canada say on Aug 1st 2023 with our PR cards (already in breach of RO) and somehow get successful in entering; && we are committing in staying in Canada for 2.5 years at stretch, its still possible that we get the PR extension later when its time.


We are on H1bs, and we are very very confused whether we should get rid of it and move OR, choose 3x the net savings $$$ here in US YOY than if we become Canadians and give up on PR. Hence I am just trying to sense a worst case scenario where we are late.

Do you have children or will you be having children soon? Sponsoring a child while not being compliant with your RO is extremely risky and not recommended because it would highlight to IRCC that you are not compliant with your RO. Border agents are more likely to not pursue someone for not meeting their RO then a VO at IRCC. If you had children you would need to wait until you meet your RO before you can start the sponsorship process that would take another 6-12 months.

 

[dpenabill]

We are on H1bs, and we are very very confused whether we should get rid of it and move OR, choose 3x the net savings $$$ here in US YOY than if we become Canadians and give up on PR. Hence I am just trying to sense a worst case scenario where we are late.

U.S. versus Canada is almost exclusively a personal thing . . . both in terms of personal preferences but also in terms of practical feasibility, the ability to live in these countries can depend on a lot of individual factors.

Personally I have nothing to offer in regards to the benefits of status in the U.S. versus status in Canada, other than to say Canada is a perfect fit for me (well, in recent years, straying beyond just getting old, travel has gotten difficult for us, and I miss some other settings, especially desert mountains . . . but to be anywhere else, I'd miss "home" and Canada is home now, best home ever), and yeah there were far more lucrative "opportunities" available to me in the U.S., but I found my niche a good long while ago and was able to move my business here, even though my clients/customers are in the U.S. (and I continue to maintain this business despite being long past retirement age).

Correct me if I am wrong here :
If we somehow try to enter Canada say on Aug 1st 2023 with our PR cards (already in breach of RO) and somehow get successful in entering; && we are committing in staying in Canada for 2.5 years at stretch, its still possible that we get the PR extension later when its time.

By the way, as a PR you are a "Canadian," a Canadian PR. Somewhat different than the U.S. system, once a person has PR status in Canada they are no longer a "Foreign National" in Canadian law.

@Ponga otherwise answered your question.

My version, with some repetition:

-- PR status does not expire, and there is no extension​

-- as a PR you are entitled to enter Canada even if in breach of the RO​

-- if you fail to come to Canada to stay in time to avoid a breach of the RO, you could be subject to inadmissibility proceedings at the border (the Port-of-Entry), resulting in the loss of PR status, but​

-- -- there is a right of appeal and you can enter Canada pending making an appeal (for at least thirty days; if an appeal is made within that time, the PR can stay pending the appeal)​

-- -- for a new PR (less than five years since landing) who is a few months in breach upon arrival, it still appears there are good odds of being waived through without being subject to inadmissibility proceedings; the caveat is there is no guarantee, none at all, that border officials will continue to be so lenient, and we are not likely to have much if any notice until after they start being more strict​

If you are waived through (not "Reported" as some reference it), your PR status is good and will stay good unless you do something to trigger a RO compliance examination. So if you come and stay, and stay two years, to when you have been in Canada >730 days within the preceding five years, your status is secure (for at least the next three years or when you otherwise are outside Canada so long you have no longer been in Canada >730 days within the preceding five years).

As @canuck78 cautions, that is not so easy as some might think. Again, mom or dad gets sick or something else is demanding a trip abroad.

Things that trigger a RO compliance examination:

-- PR card application​

-- PR TD application​

-- family sponsorship application​

-- arrival at PoE when returning to Canada from abroad (this can trigger a RO compliance examination, but does not always trigger one; in fact, vast majority of PRs are not questioned much if at all about RO compliance at the border . . . but of course the risk is much greater for a PR arriving at the border after a lengthy absence for years)​