How exactly is Harper destroying immigration when immigration has grown to unprecedented levels while the Cons have been in power?taleodor said:Probably because Harper is destroying immigration... and citizenship as an institution.
BTW, there are plenty of other threads in this forum. No need to comment on each single one
Help defeat the Conservatives for Bill C-24 (Federal Elections - October 19th)
- Thread starter taleodor
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How do you know that? Cons' propaganda? CIC also tells us that everyone should get citizenship applications processed within 24 months, and yet we have people on this forum waiting since 2012.torontosm said:
As you know, long-form Census has been 'killed' by the Harper government a while ago, so there can be no independent proof to what you are saying about 'unprecedented immigration levels'. I personally do not believe that claim.
Well, when I make the decision , I would just compare the options (contrast to seeking a perfection). What economic policies would be the best to get out of this economic climate (it's not confined to Canada, so many countries are affected).Slovan said:
No propaganda....just pure facts and figures:taleodor said:
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/statistics/facts2014/permanent/01.asp
Now if you don't believe official stats from the CIC, then what alternate source do you propose considering? Or are you just happy believing that your baseless opinion is "fact"?
Also, no "long form census" is needed to track immigration. CIC can easily determine exactly how many people were awarded PR. There is no room for data manipulation. But then, it sounds like your mind was already made up before you even posted your first comment.
We are fortunate that the Cons definitely did tighten the refugee rules, but if anything, that would have taken the PR numbers lower. However, the opposite happened and PR numbers increased, thereby showing that the despite cracking down on fraud and abuse of the system, the Cons still raised immigration to levels that the Liberals had never reached.AlexRox said:
keesio
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I can only speak for myself but the comment that somehow the Conservative government has been "destroying immigration", or somehow hostile to it is a bit absurd to me. I'd say that in the past 15 years in Canada, very few people here has had more applications to CIC then me. I've had:
-9 work permit applications (each for a 1 year permit)
-1 FSW PR application
-1 Sponsorship application of my wife
-1 Citizenship application
During this time, it has been 6 years of Liberal governments and 9 years of Conservative governments. All applications were successfully processed in a nice, timely fashion. Sure CIC could do a lot of things better (transparency, timelines that don't make much sense, better documentation, etc) and they have certainly frustrated me in the past, but overall my dealings with CIC have generally been positive. I certainly didn't notice a hostile change with my work permit applications when a Conservative government came into power. And my PR, sponsorship and citizenship applications were all under a Conservative government. They certainly tightened some requirements and stuff but nothing that was an huge eye opener to me.
Again, I can only go by my experience and obviously others have had a different experience. But a blanket general statement that the Conservatives are "destroying immigration" certainly does not jibe with my experiences.
-9 work permit applications (each for a 1 year permit)
-1 FSW PR application
-1 Sponsorship application of my wife
-1 Citizenship application
During this time, it has been 6 years of Liberal governments and 9 years of Conservative governments. All applications were successfully processed in a nice, timely fashion. Sure CIC could do a lot of things better (transparency, timelines that don't make much sense, better documentation, etc) and they have certainly frustrated me in the past, but overall my dealings with CIC have generally been positive. I certainly didn't notice a hostile change with my work permit applications when a Conservative government came into power. And my PR, sponsorship and citizenship applications were all under a Conservative government. They certainly tightened some requirements and stuff but nothing that was an huge eye opener to me.
Again, I can only go by my experience and obviously others have had a different experience. But a blanket general statement that the Conservatives are "destroying immigration" certainly does not jibe with my experiences.
ZingyDNA
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From your stats, I understand the number of immigrants has increased from approximately 216k in 1990 to 260k in 2014, which is a 20% increase. However, the population of Canada in 1990 is 27.8 million, compared to 35.5 million in 2014. So the population increased by over 27% from 1990 to 2014, but the immigrants only increased by 20%.
I wouldn't say the conservatives have taken immigration to an unprecedented level based on these facts.
I wouldn't say the conservatives have taken immigration to an unprecedented level based on these facts.
torontosm said:
Look, do you believe Harper's account on sen. Mike Duffy or sen. Pamela Wallin? Would you believe his government on other issues?torontosm said:
Now, even if you look at your own link carefully, you would see that the immigration was at flat line during Harper. If you factor in provincial nominees and population growth (see the previous reply), you would notice, it actually declined in relative numbers. So the claim about 'unprecedented' immigration levels is utterly false.
It also looks not everybody understands the 'destroying immigration' statement in relation to Harper. Let me explain:
1. I don't mind stricter rules, but the problem is under Cons we have no rules at all. They are changing rules every couple of months, even for existing applicants. That's same as saying there are no rules at all.
2. Same with citizenship, where suddenly (see C-24) government can take your citizenship away without any court hearing. Where is the due process here?
3. I'm happy for the person above and their positive experience. Let me tell you from my experience where tens of thousands of applicants had their cases stuck for 1.5+ years due to the spontaneous closure of the Buffalo office. This situation has only been resolved due to direct involvement of an opposition party. Does it look like a normal story in a civilized country? Also, take a look at tens of thousands of applicants which were returned to senders without processing.
4. Look at the new citizenship rules also. Somebody sitting on welfare and doing nothing would easily qualify. However, a businessman who is travelling a lot and paying a lot of taxes would be bombarded with RQs, other forms, suspicions, etc and etc
... this list can go on, but I hope you get the idea
As a consequence, the immigration in Canada under Cons turns out to be a lottery. Gamblers would try to go in. But well-educated and well-trained people would choose to go elsewhere. This is what I mean by 'destroying immigration'.
My experience (personal and what I hear ) follows a same pattern. Legit immigrants for the most part experience improved processing times, etc. People who are trying to misuse the system(fake claims, etc) starting to see more and more obstacles. I know there are some exceptions to this. But overall I will not agree with the narrative that CPC destroyed "legit" immigration.keesio said:
The exceptions are in hundreds of thousands people. I wouldn't call it 'some'. There is lots of proof on this forum (of course Cons are trying to hide this data, so it's not so easy to get it from official sources). That is exactly what it is, which is destroying legit immigration.AlexRox said:
A simple question for you. How often do you see an advise on this forum to contact your local MP about an immigration issue? Do you consider such frequency of contacts and advises to contact to be normal?
The destruction of immigration system is not a done deal though, just a trend for now. There is still a chance to kick Conservatives out of the office.
Disparaging characterizations like "destroying immigration" are, of course, at best overbroad and uninformative.
But there are scores of reasons why many Canadians, immigrant and non-immigrant, feel that the Conservative government's reign has had a seriously negative impact on many immigrants, has damaged Canadian immigration, has in particular abused large numbers of legitimate immigrants and Permanent Residents, and overall has pursued policies and agendas detrimental to many immigrants and their families, and contrary to the legacy of Canada as an immigrant friendly nation.
The latter looms large for non-immigrants as well as immigrants because reasonable Canadians understand full well that the Canadian economy, and thus the welfare of all Canadians, depends on Canada continuing to attract immigrants who will invest their lives in Canada.
In many respects, the Harper/Kenney/Alexander reign (and to some extent, Diane Finley before Kenney) has attempted to accomplish this, ranging from focusing immigration policy with the intent to attract qualified immigrants who will work and invest in Canada, and the Strengthening Canadian Citizenship Act (the SCCA) was in part intended to reform the naturalized citizenship process toward this end.
The problem is that the policies and practices actually implemented are in many respects counter-productive, misguided, and rife with unfair, even abusive consequences. There are two overriding characterizations of Tory policy and practice: incompetence and a lack of transparency.
The roll-out of the Harper/Perrin/Kenney project to address the problem of fraud in citizenship applications, for example, probably did address the problem of fraud, probably reducing the incidence of fraud by hundreds, perhaps even a few thousand . . . but it abused the statutory rights of hundreds of thousands of legitimate, qualified PRs applying for citizenship.
Consider a decision by the Federal Court just last week, in the Abdulghafoor case, an individual who applied for citizenship in November 2009, and even though he declared actual presence for over 1200 days, and a Citizenship Judge eventually ruled in his favour, nearly six years later CIC has continued to obstruct the grant of citizenship. (I assume CIC is at last scheduling, or has as of this week scheduled, this individual for the oath, but it has been a long, long time coming.)
Between late 2011 and the latter part of 2013, the process for grant citizenship came to a near standstill because of the misbegotten policies and practices implemented under Kenney's watch as Minister of CIC, clearly at the direction of Harper (with many indications that Ben Perrin was the primary architect of the disastrous policy underlying OB 407).
The full scope of that disaster is beyond public scrutiny because of the other profoundly pervasive manner in which the Harper government has abused its power: the radical curtailment of transparency. From the elimination of the annual report by the Citizenship Commission (last one partially covered 2009) to the replacement of the Operational Manuals and Operational Bulletins by the far less informative Program Delivery Instructions, from the extensive redaction of even rudimentary instructions in processing applications in response to legitimate Access to Information requests to general approaches in delivering information to the public (examples: previous practice of publishing timelines including when 20% and 50% of applications had been processed has been stunted to the utterly uninformative information about how long it has taken to process 80% of applications; occasions like a fee increase with NO notice, so that a large number of applications already in the mail ended up being returned to applicants for inadequate fees; the obviously deliberate failure to give reasonable notice of the implementation of the changes in grant citizenship requirements; among literally scores of other examples of blatant abuses).
While not about immigration or citizenship, a recent Federal Court case illuminates the disregard, the outright disdain even, the Harper government has for the right of not just the public to information, but the right of the provinces as well. See the case regarding promise made to preserve information but the actual deliberate destruction of that information, rendering it unavailable. The blatant abuse of power contrary to basic principles of democratic government should be of great concern.
On the incompetency front: look at Harper's Chief of Staff in the PMO, Ray Novak, who has rather cavalierly acknowledged he did not even read brief emails from his [then] boss in the PMO, email regarding a major crisis being handled (corruptively handled it turned out) by the PMO. Frankly, most indications are that Ray Novak is actually lying about this, pursuing a cover-up of malfeasance on a broad scale within the PMO, but his defence is to overtly confess utter incompetence . . . sure we all get streams of inconsequential email we hardly glance at, but it is unabated incompetence to ignore email from one's boss, particularly when it regards a matter of importance.
I like the humour underlying the observation that Harper's government cannot even deliver the mail, but that is merely the catchy phrase which resonates so widely because it reflects the pervasive failures of this government to provide even basic services to so many. (For example, my 91 year old neighbour, who is a veteran injured during WWII, now has to navigate a phone tree and long periods on hold, calling an office over 400 miles away, to deal with a veteran's affairs bureaucracy that has systematically decreased and weakened the support our veterans well-deserve.)
And the hundreds of thousands of citizenship applications which wallowed in limbo for two and three and many for four and even five years, despite the legitimacy and qualification of the vast, vast majority affected, is more than ample evidence of both incompetence and a glaring disdain for the rights of Canadians, which is just one example among so many which have tainted the world's perception of Canada.
One could go on. And on. And on. There really is no doubt, whatever advantages a Conservative government might ordinarily provide to the governing of Canada, the Harper government has been a disaster on many, many fronts. My impression is that scores and scores of Conservative supporters are concerned about a Harper government and would have preferred to see a change in the party's leadership, but are afraid to speak up. Which brings up another profoundly disturbing aspect of Harper's governing: muzzling discourse, from muzzling scientists to the recent email sent to members of Justice intended to preclude any expression of political views even in their own private social media circles.
In any event, Canadians who care about the direction this great country is headed are not ready for another Harper government. The end is nigh, the heave Steve movement is swelling, but it is important to not take what should happen for granted, but to do our part to make sure what happens is what should happen, that Harper is sent packing, sent off with an emphatic message.
But there are scores of reasons why many Canadians, immigrant and non-immigrant, feel that the Conservative government's reign has had a seriously negative impact on many immigrants, has damaged Canadian immigration, has in particular abused large numbers of legitimate immigrants and Permanent Residents, and overall has pursued policies and agendas detrimental to many immigrants and their families, and contrary to the legacy of Canada as an immigrant friendly nation.
The latter looms large for non-immigrants as well as immigrants because reasonable Canadians understand full well that the Canadian economy, and thus the welfare of all Canadians, depends on Canada continuing to attract immigrants who will invest their lives in Canada.
In many respects, the Harper/Kenney/Alexander reign (and to some extent, Diane Finley before Kenney) has attempted to accomplish this, ranging from focusing immigration policy with the intent to attract qualified immigrants who will work and invest in Canada, and the Strengthening Canadian Citizenship Act (the SCCA) was in part intended to reform the naturalized citizenship process toward this end.
The problem is that the policies and practices actually implemented are in many respects counter-productive, misguided, and rife with unfair, even abusive consequences. There are two overriding characterizations of Tory policy and practice: incompetence and a lack of transparency.
The roll-out of the Harper/Perrin/Kenney project to address the problem of fraud in citizenship applications, for example, probably did address the problem of fraud, probably reducing the incidence of fraud by hundreds, perhaps even a few thousand . . . but it abused the statutory rights of hundreds of thousands of legitimate, qualified PRs applying for citizenship.
Consider a decision by the Federal Court just last week, in the Abdulghafoor case, an individual who applied for citizenship in November 2009, and even though he declared actual presence for over 1200 days, and a Citizenship Judge eventually ruled in his favour, nearly six years later CIC has continued to obstruct the grant of citizenship. (I assume CIC is at last scheduling, or has as of this week scheduled, this individual for the oath, but it has been a long, long time coming.)
Between late 2011 and the latter part of 2013, the process for grant citizenship came to a near standstill because of the misbegotten policies and practices implemented under Kenney's watch as Minister of CIC, clearly at the direction of Harper (with many indications that Ben Perrin was the primary architect of the disastrous policy underlying OB 407).
The full scope of that disaster is beyond public scrutiny because of the other profoundly pervasive manner in which the Harper government has abused its power: the radical curtailment of transparency. From the elimination of the annual report by the Citizenship Commission (last one partially covered 2009) to the replacement of the Operational Manuals and Operational Bulletins by the far less informative Program Delivery Instructions, from the extensive redaction of even rudimentary instructions in processing applications in response to legitimate Access to Information requests to general approaches in delivering information to the public (examples: previous practice of publishing timelines including when 20% and 50% of applications had been processed has been stunted to the utterly uninformative information about how long it has taken to process 80% of applications; occasions like a fee increase with NO notice, so that a large number of applications already in the mail ended up being returned to applicants for inadequate fees; the obviously deliberate failure to give reasonable notice of the implementation of the changes in grant citizenship requirements; among literally scores of other examples of blatant abuses).
While not about immigration or citizenship, a recent Federal Court case illuminates the disregard, the outright disdain even, the Harper government has for the right of not just the public to information, but the right of the provinces as well. See the case regarding promise made to preserve information but the actual deliberate destruction of that information, rendering it unavailable. The blatant abuse of power contrary to basic principles of democratic government should be of great concern.
On the incompetency front: look at Harper's Chief of Staff in the PMO, Ray Novak, who has rather cavalierly acknowledged he did not even read brief emails from his [then] boss in the PMO, email regarding a major crisis being handled (corruptively handled it turned out) by the PMO. Frankly, most indications are that Ray Novak is actually lying about this, pursuing a cover-up of malfeasance on a broad scale within the PMO, but his defence is to overtly confess utter incompetence . . . sure we all get streams of inconsequential email we hardly glance at, but it is unabated incompetence to ignore email from one's boss, particularly when it regards a matter of importance.
I like the humour underlying the observation that Harper's government cannot even deliver the mail, but that is merely the catchy phrase which resonates so widely because it reflects the pervasive failures of this government to provide even basic services to so many. (For example, my 91 year old neighbour, who is a veteran injured during WWII, now has to navigate a phone tree and long periods on hold, calling an office over 400 miles away, to deal with a veteran's affairs bureaucracy that has systematically decreased and weakened the support our veterans well-deserve.)
And the hundreds of thousands of citizenship applications which wallowed in limbo for two and three and many for four and even five years, despite the legitimacy and qualification of the vast, vast majority affected, is more than ample evidence of both incompetence and a glaring disdain for the rights of Canadians, which is just one example among so many which have tainted the world's perception of Canada.
One could go on. And on. And on. There really is no doubt, whatever advantages a Conservative government might ordinarily provide to the governing of Canada, the Harper government has been a disaster on many, many fronts. My impression is that scores and scores of Conservative supporters are concerned about a Harper government and would have preferred to see a change in the party's leadership, but are afraid to speak up. Which brings up another profoundly disturbing aspect of Harper's governing: muzzling discourse, from muzzling scientists to the recent email sent to members of Justice intended to preclude any expression of political views even in their own private social media circles.
In any event, Canadians who care about the direction this great country is headed are not ready for another Harper government. The end is nigh, the heave Steve movement is swelling, but it is important to not take what should happen for granted, but to do our part to make sure what happens is what should happen, that Harper is sent packing, sent off with an emphatic message.