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hardness and cruelty of some CIC offciers

alaabebe

Full Member
Apr 19, 2016
42
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ZingyDNA said:
Well, if they suspect misrepresentation, they can trace back more than that, right?
This could be understood if I did not have two years of investigation to renew my PR's
i have a letter of positive determination of residence obligation for the period before 2012

When I myself met with the CIC officer and showed him my letter , he said this covers two years and i need one more yer for your citizenship
this was early 2015 when i did my citizenship test and met an officer for few minutes , two weeks later I got my passport
 

asaif

Hero Member
Sep 3, 2010
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From your name, I may guess where are your from and I can understand why is this happening to you. Unfortunately, there are more Trumpists in the system than you think. Good luck.
 

alaabebe

Full Member
Apr 19, 2016
42
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scylla said:
I don't think we have the full story on dates. My guess is that they applied for citizenship well before 2014 and then their citizenship applications were held up while PR was renewed. I don't believe the four year period before they applied for citizenship is May 2010 to May 2014. I think the four year period is actually quite a bit earlier - so the examination of 2007 to 2010 isn't that odd.
this is what you think and this is not what they required for the citizenship application
they submitted on may 2014 to cover a period of four years backwards till 2010 which they did
we all did
the difference was , I and my elder son met an officer who spent few minutes with us while she and my other son met a lady who spent hour with them and they sent their papers for investigation and we received questionnaire which we replied
we have a letter from CIC on year 2014 of positive determination of residence obligation , why she did inquire a bot period that has been throughly investigated by them before..
i don't see any fairness here
no solid process applicable on every one on just basis
 

scylla

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alaabebe said:
citizenship applications submitted on may 2012 and for a period of four years covering more than 3.5 years , more than required for citizenship
That's what I suspected. So then it makes perfect sense why CIC looked back well before 2010. FYI - The residency requirements for PR are completely different than the residency requirements for citizenship. Having a positive determination of residence for PR doesn't mean anything for citizenship.

Anyway - it does sound like there was something in your application or the evidence you provided that CIC determined to be a misrepresentation for the 2007-2010 period. If you don't know what that specific misrepresentation was, order your notes and find out. If you do know what that misrepresentation was - you should explain it here in detail and also explain why CIC was wrong in assessing this as a misrepresentation. We can't help you further without this information.
 

alaabebe

Full Member
Apr 19, 2016
42
0
heeradeepak said:
Scylla since you peoples have much experience i want ask a question that a person after receiving of RQ voluntarily withdraw the application and CIC approved that request of withdrawal. What will happened when he will reapply, CIC will again check that old file or they will consider only new application with new proofs or residence?
they will consider the new applications , unless , you have made mistake or change a genuine information m they might go back and check the old file
it all depends on the CIC officer you meet
a nice guys will go smooth
a bad racist lady will give a hell in the meeting that follows and might send your file for further investigation which takes a year
no system
no process
no justice
 

scylla

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alaabebe said:
this is what you think and this is not what they required for the citizenship application
they submitted on may 2014 to cover a period of four years backwards till 2010 which they did
we all did
Now you're providing contradictory information. A few posts up you said you applied for citizenship in 2012. Now you're saying 2014. Did you apply at one time and the rest of your family at another time? If so, who applied when? You're going to have to be a lot clearer in your posts and the information you provide if you want assistance from those of us here.
 

alaabebe

Full Member
Apr 19, 2016
42
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tds69us said:
Appeal right away...do not let Citizenship Officers decide the course of your application...some of them abuse their authority...appeal at the federal level if you have to

I went to a lawyer and i will appeal
again no justice
no fairness
no solid systemic process
people are subject to personal abuse from those officers

laws must protect us !
 

alaabebe

Full Member
Apr 19, 2016
42
0
canuck_in_uk said:
You need to provide more information if you want actual advice.

It seems from your first sentence that you applied for citizenship in early 2012, so time from before 2010 would have definitely been a part of the qualifying period. When exactly did you apply?

CIC said that they committed misrepresentation. What specifically was the misrepresentation and how did you try to argue against it?
applied for renewal of PR's on early 2012 , got our PR's renewed on year 2014 after two years of investigations and finally ended up with interview
with a nice CIC officer .
we have a letter from CIC confirming the positive detreminatIon of residence obligation
so on year 2014 we have a two years counted
our citizenship applications was sent on May 2014 to cover a period extend from mAY 2010till May 2014 , we submitted same files for all of us
I and my elder son got the citizenship , while my wife ands end elder son fall into that aggressive rude tricky lady , who got their file stuck for almost a year
they we received a letter to see a judge in a hearing session, at that day no judge and they met the same lady again
she was abusing them
no fairness at all.......

she tortured them and interrogating them for a period three years before year 2012....clear!
 

alaabebe

Full Member
Apr 19, 2016
42
0
dpenabill said:
This is a difficult situation.

Assuming the decision itself was indeed unreasonable, it is best to see a qualified, reputable lawyer AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. As others have observed, there is a limited time within which to seek review of this decision, so time is of the essence, and moreover there is no right to appeal so it is really important to get help from a lawyer who knows how to make a proper application to seek leave for judicial review.

That is, judicial review (appeal) is possible, but first one must ask, in effect, for permission from the Federal Court, and this is a technical procedure for which a lawyer's help is a virtual practical necessity.

Obviously the back side to this story is its inherent lesson: how important it is to avoid making mistakes in the information provided to the government. Damaged credibility is perhaps the most difficult problem there is to overcome.



Beyond that, some objective observations:

I am sure this has been a painful experience. I do not know to what extent the OP's post here is about looking for recourse or is an exercise in expressing dissatisfaction. Perhaps some of both?

To seek recourse, as already suggested: lawyer-up, and lawyer-up real soon.

That noted, while some lawyers are perhaps better than others in showing sympathy, the lawyer's job is not about sympathizing. It is about identifying courses of action to rectify wrongs. But a big part of that is also about identifying the issues and assessing the facts and discerning what prospects for recourse there are. That is, objectively looking at what is and why and how it got there, toward identifying where things can go from there.

I am no Canadian lawyer. But I can offer some objective observations about this situation (recognizing as others have, that there are some elements unsaid).

While it involves reading between the lines some, it is fairly obvious the CIC officer determined there was a misrepresentation made to IRCC or CBSA, constituting grounds to deny the citizenship application.

Since this is about misrepresentation, the time span for calculation of residency is not relevant; what is relevant is whether the applicant submitted inaccurate information to CIC, was that information material to the processing of the application, and did it thus constitute a material misrepresentation of fact. How the information is material is important, but the more important aspect is what the inaccurate information itself was, and how and why it was submitted to CIC.

Tough place to be in. Especially with the five year ban. And then there is the worry whether the misrepresentation could also be grounds for initiating proceedings to revoke Permanent Resident status.


Procedure in this case:

No CJ: The only cases Citizenship Judges decide after August 1, 2014, regardless when the application was made, are residency cases or, for applications made after June 11, 2015, physical presence cases. Thus, if the grounds for denying the application are based on any reason other than residency/presence that is not a matter which goes to a CJ. Thus, cases which are denied or rejected on the grounds of misrepresentation do not go to a CJ. This appears, quite clearly, to be a misrepresentation case, thus it was decided by a Citizenship Officer not a Citizenship Judge.

The OP believes they adequately responded and explained the "misrepresentation," but obviously the examining Citizenship Officer reached a contrary conclusion. It would be no surprise to experience an officer's overt dissatisfaction when the officer believes the applicants have engaged in deliberate misrepresentation. So the officer's demeanor is not surprising, even if it was rooted in error.

Whether the officer reached an appropriate or erroneous conclusion can be the subject of an application for leave to obtain Federal Court review. The application must be made timely. While individuals do not absolutely need a lawyer, with the process in place since August 1, 2014, with there being no right to appeal, the process is more complicated and a lawyer's assistance is more or less a practical necessity.

Given the consequences of this decision, if at all possible, a lawyer should be at least consulted.

The burden in making a case on appeal is high and difficult, in this situation practically limited to showing there was a significant breach of fairness in the process. Disagreement with the conclusion itself is not grounds unless the decision was so far outside the bounds of an acceptable outcome that it is unreasonable. In other words, no amount of showing it was wrong will warrant the decision being reversed on appeal; it must be shown to be unreasonable in order to be overturned.

I realize some people might equate a wrong decision with an unreasonable one. As in, isn't an outcome unreasonable if it is shown to be wrong. But no, that is not how it works. Reasonable people can reach very different conclusions. If the decision is within the range of what reasonable persons might conclude, it is not subject to being overturned on the grounds that a reviewing court thinks the decision itself was wrong.

Looks like there was a fairness letter, an opportunity to respond to that, and an opportunity to be heard in person. So it would be difficult to show there was a material denial of fair procedure. The applicant would need to show something akin to the officer failing to so much as consider material evidence, or reaching a conclusion contrary to any reasonable inference from what is clearly shown in the evidence.


Recent Federal Court decision where a Federal Court did reverse based on unreasonableness of the decision-maker's conclusions:

see http://decisions.fct-cf.gc.ca/fc-cf/decisions/en/item/143404/index.do
Justice Marineau's decision in an appeal by NAJLAA LABIOUI, setting aside the decision by a Citizenship Judge

The case I cite is a residency case and is an appeal of a decision by a Citizenship Judge, so it is not the same procedure as the OP's case. If the OP is going to challenge the decision, the OP will have to seek leave for review of the Minister's decision (albeit actually a decision by a Minister's delegate, the Citizenship Officer) rather than a CJ's decision.

But some of the underlying principles of review are similar. On its face, it is largely about challenging the factual conclusions reached. Again, this is very, very difficult to do successfully. As the Minister argued in the case decided by Justice Marineau, this amounts to asking the reviewing court to reweigh the evidence that was before the decision maker (in the cited case, that being the decision by the CJ; for the OP it is the decision by a Citizenship Officer). And that is NOT the role of the court conducting a review.

The specific question asked is whether what the decision-maker decided "falls within a range of possible, acceptable outcomes which are defensible in respect of the facts and law."

As noted, these are perhaps among the most difficult cases to succeed in making on appeal. But some are successful, as it was in the case decided by Justice Marineau.


Would have, should have . . . another lesson taught:

I already noted the back side of this being the lesson about how crucial it is to be accurate when submitting information to IRCC.

Another lesson here is recognizing the significance of a fairness letter about misrepresentation. These are not common. There are more than a few probably, but they are not common. Typically IRCC (or CIC as it was before it became IRCC) characterizes discrepancies in terms of compromised credibility, the mistake or misrepresentation being reason to question, or doubt, or challenge the applicant's account of facts. Thus, questions of credibility are usually a factor in weighing the evidence overall, and this is usually about evidence or claims as to residency or presence.

A case which is more or less specifically a misrepresentation case is different. Remember, a finding of misrepresentation is a stand alone ground for denying the application, no matter how qualified for citizenship the PR was otherwise. (Obvious, most cited example, is the applicant who used a Mississauga address, one provided by his consultant, because his consultant said the processing time was much faster in Mississauga; claim is the applicant actually lived in Montreal, so he was still resident and present in Canada, just in a different city. Denied. Did not matter he actually met the residency requirement. The false information submitted was grounds to deny.)

In particular, if IRCC identifies a factual discrepancy as reason to overtly address it as a misrepresentation, this is a big deal. Heads-up: big problem looming. Heads-up: probably time to lawyer-up. Just plain heads-up!

I have not seen one of these letters. My guess is that they look like just about any other communication from IRCC, almost generic. That is, they probably do not give notice, in any print let alone in bold, that they are what is described as a fairness letter. My impression is that they simply notify the applicant of an issue and offer the applicant an opportunity to respond. And do not overtly suggest let alone specify the importance such a letter has.

As the OP here describes, they simply received letters requesting the applicants to "clarify two points of misrepresentation in their applications."

Probably did not look that much different than the letters other applicants sometimes receive, such as a request to submit a copy of a rental lease.

But there is a difference.

If the term "misrepresentation" was explicitly used that is probably more than some in a similar situation might be told. Less salient terms like "discrepancy" might be used. The term "misrepresentation" might not alert many, but to anyone familiar with CIC/IRCC procedure, it is a term which rings bells and flashes lights and waves a huge red flag. Some emphatic expletives come to mind.

And the problem is that by the time this kind of letter is sent to someone, the officer deciding to send the letter has largely already made up his or her mind that this was indeed a misrepresentation. Not a mistake. Not an oversight. A misrepresentation, and that makes it a very big deal.

In any event, while it might not always be easy to recognize a fairness letter as such, anyone who receives a fairness letter which is about misrepresentations or discrepancies needs to take immediate action, and consulting with a lawyer is among the first and more important actions to take. This is serious stuff. The consequences can be severe and go beyond being denied citizenship. Government housing of the not-at-all pleasant sort could be looming in the wings.


The Sad Side:

Even among those who were not altogether innocent, many times these things arise more from misunderstanding rather than an overt scheme to mislead. Indeed, many times mostly innocent persons are persuaded by others to give information or answers which are not accurate because the inaccurate answer will, supposedly, be better. Bad advice. There is a lot of such bad advice.

And then some people have a great deal more difficulty explaining how and why the inaccurate information was given, and the misunderstanding is made worse, the problem is made worse. My impression is that those with fraudulent intent tend to be better prepared to navigate this while those who are confused, and misled by bad advice, are the ones who tend to fall deeper and deeper into a problematic transaction with IRCC/CIC, and end up being punished more than the real culprits.

All I can offer is the typical caution I often give: follow the instructions and do your best to be complete and accurate. Beyond that, if mistakes are made, correct them sooner rather than later; but if there is any sign that IRCC is focusing on compromised credibility and especially if there is any indication IRCC is identifying erroneous information as a "misrepresentation," then it is time to lawyer-up.
Yes indeed it's really hard times for the whole family
our situation became critical and my wife hates to stay any longer here!
She and my son thought the officer dealt with them in an abusive manner and she was tricky and wanted to pull their legs into mistakes and troubles
she was not fair and supportive as it should be
If the misrepresentation of information supererce the residence and your fulfillment and meeting residence requirement needed for citizenship
then we are facing a terrible injustice system
this is unfair and I believe innocent people can not tolerate it
Thanks much indeed for your valuable disappointing thoughts your explained in your comprehensive demonstration of how the Canadian lawyer is dealing with similar cases which cause me an immense of dispair ...
you've been great help
have a great day
 

canuck_in_uk

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alaabebe said:
citizenship applications submitted on may 2012 and for a period of four years covering more than 3.5 years , more than required for citizenship
alaabebe said:
our citizenship applications was sent on May 2014 to cover a period extend from mAY 2010till May 2014 , we submitted same files for all of us
You are still providing contradictory information and saying nothing about the misrepresentation.
 

alaabebe

Full Member
Apr 19, 2016
42
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Alurra71 said:
Something in the applications triggered the officer to think there is a form of misrepresentation. Remember, they can examine the time period quite a while back as necessary to even ensure that you were eligible to apply for citizenship at the time the application was signed. It seems as though your files go back quite some time if the officer was looking all the way back to 2007.
As I've explained previously,that, They have submitted their citizenship application when they were quite confident that they covered the 3 years period out of four , since may 2010 till may 2014 when they submitted , they received questionnaire two or three months later , that were answered with all supplementary documents , finally they got a letter to appear for citizenship test, but unfortunately they met a tough aggressive racist lady that gave them the hardest time on earth
I spent few minutes with my officer , while they spent an hour with her
they went I and my elder son got the citizenship , she and my second elder son , nothing for a whole year and finally, got a letter to clarify few points in this application , which they did and then a request to see the judge , they went but did not see the judge and unfortunately met the same lady again!
they were to see a judge for 30 minutes each
they met with her for almost two hours and finally she sent a letter two days later , only two days , refusing their applications!!!!!!with five years ban to submit again
I've never seen cruelty and abuse as such...
 

scylla

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And as we've explained previously - until you tell us exactly why the finding of misrepresentation was made - we can't help you further. If you don't know why the finding of misrepresentation was made - order your notes - your notes will tell you.
 

mwabu1976

Full Member
Mar 10, 2014
48
4
From my experience I would say that immigration officers evaluate application in differant ways. No standard is followed.

Based on your information that you mentioned which are general information, some people may think that the lady has found something that the officer you met with did not see. As result, you and your son passed but your wife and other son not.

I don't know the details of your case. Therefore, I would give you a general simple advise which is

Get a lawyer and go to the court ONLY if you did not do anything wrong. This is very important because you have to remember the Federal Court option is not an easy option and the only way to win your case their is only by obaying the law and saying the truth.
 

Almost_Canadian

Star Member
Dec 2, 2015
133
17
I have been following this thread but some info seems missing.
When me and my wife applied , we sent the applications together in the same envelope. CIC then treats it as a family application. So the processing was done together. There were so many delays with her application and mine was delayed along with that.
In your case, if you all filed together, it would have been a family application. So it gets complicated here:
How did you and elder son get your citizenship earlier ? Normally it would have continued as a family application so you both would have had to wait until the other 2 persons processing was done.
For us, after test, we had to meet the CIC officer together for interview. I presume this is the way for family application. (Senior members- if I'm wrong, please feel free to correct me). So all of you should have met the same officer.
Do remember also that CIC does have access to entry/exit records since last 2 years so they can go back and check for any mistakes/misrepresentation in dates)
As other members have said, you need to present some more info here. Exactly what was the issue which the CIC officer flagged for your wife and other son. Without that info, no one can provide any advice.
 

nkam

Star Member
Dec 20, 2015
82
2
In a scenario in which two applications were successful but the other two within the same family application were denied with determination of misrepresentation.
Would challenging CIC at Federal level trigger revisiting the successful applications to determine if the alleged misrepresentation apply but were not identified? Are there risks of initiating revoking the successful applications and/ or fine procedures?