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Getting reported at US/Canada border for not meeting res. reqs. Still PR?

magedhoh

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Sep 11, 2011
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Hello everyone,

I've read many posts on this great forum talking about how it is possible to enter Canada at a US-Canada border in a private/rented car or by foot only with one's confirmation of permanent residence or record of landing + passport of a country that needs a visa to enter Canada, without the need of a PR card. The officers at the border usually ask questions to check whether or not the returning PRs have met their residency requirements and may lecture those whom they feel aren't but then eventually let them through when they're convinced that they had good H&C reasons, this is because the officers at the border don't have the authority to judge whether or not these H&C reasons are sufficient or not so they're usually more flexible and let people through more readily (To my understanding, trying to convince the officers at the US-Canada border of one's H&C reasons face to face is much better than writing the H&C reasons down in a travel document application because if the officers at the embassy aren't fully convinced by the written H&C reasons and refuse to issue a TD, this would automatically lead to the revocation of PR status completely). However, in the worst case scenario, the officers may report the PR if they're not convinced by the PR's H&C reasons, if the PR has spent very long times outside Canada or if they're not convinced that the PR is willing to return to Canada permanently. In that case, they would still let the person through into Canada for only 30 days during which he/she is supposed to appeal the decision. My question is, during these 30 days would that reported person still be considered a permanent resident of Canada or would this reporting mean that he/she has lost his/her status as a PR until he/she appeals during the 30 days and wins?

I'm asking this because I'm willing to cross the US-Canada border but I fear that if I get reported (as I haven't met my residency requirements) but still allowed to enter for 30 days, that I wouldn't be considered a Permanent resident during these 30 days and therefore my citizenship application would be cancelled and I wouldn't be able to attend my future citizenship ceremony (My Father who lives in Canada applied for citizenship 1.5 years ago and added me to his application as a minor). I'm planning to return to Canada through the US-Canada border in a private vehicle as soon as my father gets the letter inviting us to the citizenship ceremony, I do have some convincing H&C reasons to say at the border including that I was unintentionally removed from Canada by my parents when I was just 12 years old and that I now want to join my mother, father and younger brother in Canada and enter university there (I suppose they consider the best interests of any "children" involved, I am under 22 (19) and unmarried) so I think I have quite a good chance at entering Canada without getting reported. However, in the worst case scenario that I get reported and given 30 days to appeal in Canada, would I still be able to attend my citizenship ceremony as a PR or would I then not be considered a PR in the first place and not allowed to attend. My plan is to attend the citizenship ceremony and become a Canadian citizen, even if I get reported at the border (because I intend to return to Canada much less than 30 days (the time they'd give me in Canada to appeal) before the time of the citizenship ceremony). Also, in order to receive citizenship, one must give the judge his/her PR card and original immigration documents, so I wanted to know whether or not they would take them from me or stamp them if I get reported at the border?

Thank you very much
 

Leon

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Jun 13, 2008
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You can not get citizenship if your PR status is in question so if you are reported on entry, you will likely not be able to get your citizenship. However, if you were over 14 when your father applied for you, you must attend the oath in order to get it.
 

magedhoh

Full Member
Sep 11, 2011
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Thank you Leon for making that clear. I was 17 years and 11 months old when my Father applied for citizenship 19 months ago, so I must attend the oath to obtain citizenship. I have no choice but to enter Canada either in a private vehicle with my confirmation of permanent residence + passport through the US-Canada border or by applying for a travel document and entering by commercial transport. Which of the two options do you recommend, especially that I haven't met my residency requirements and don't want to jeopardize my PR status by applying for a travel document under H&C reasons (Although I do feel that I have some good H&C reasons to justify not meeting my residency requirements, I still wouldn't be 100% sure that they would get me a travel document). Is it really true that the officers at the US-Canada border would be more flexible than the officers at embassies with returning PRs who haven't met their residency requirements because they don't have the authority to judge whether or not the H&C reasons are sufficient or not? Is it true that they usually just let the PRs pass?
Thank you
 

Leon

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From what I have heard, they usually let PR's pass at the border without reporting them. If you are visa exempt to Canada, you can fly in on the strength of your passport and deal with immigration when you arrive at the airport. If you are not visa exempt, you either need a travel document or you get a US visa and enter in a private car or on foot at the land border.

Do you have an expired PR card? If you do, you can show that too when you enter. If they ask you how long you were outside Canada and your reasons, you can tell them that you had good reasons and that you will explain that to immigration when you apply to renew your PR card. In most cases, the immigration officers do not seem to want to deal with you at the border and let you pass without reporting. Therefore it is better for you to try your luck with that. If you apply for a travel document through the embassy, they will have to make a determination on your reasons for being outside being acceptable or not. One acceptable reason might be that your parents made the decision when you were a minor and that you are now returning first chance after becoming an adult. However, if the embassy does not accept your reasons and does not give you a travel document, you can appeal that but if you lose the appeal, you lose your PR.
 

Msafiri

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Nov 18, 2012
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magedhoh,

What is the timeline for your father's application i.e. has he taken the test as yet and has there been a Residency Questionnaire issued?
 

magedhoh

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Sep 11, 2011
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Thank you Leon. I'm not visa exempt to Canada unfortunately so I need to get a visa to the US and then enter Canada in a private car (I'll try to arrange to enter in a car with my Family to show them that I'm really entering Canada to join my Family, I suppose that may strengthen my situation). I do have an expired PR card but how would showing them that at the border help me (since I'd already be entering with my record of landing or confirmation of permanent residence, not with a PR card). Do you mean that, if they start asking me questions about how long I was outside Canada, I should just show them my expired PR card (as proof that I need to renew it?) and tell them that I'd be renewing it when I enter Canada and that I'd explain my good reasons for my absences from Canada in my renewal application?

Thanks Msafiri. My Father applied for citizenship in May 2011 (19 months ago). He still hasn't taken the test. Could you please tell me what you mean by residency questionnaire. Thank you :)
 

Leon

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magedhoh said:
Do you mean that, if they start asking me questions about how long I was outside Canada, I should just show them my expired PR card (as proof that I need to renew it?) and tell them that I'd be renewing it when I enter Canada and that I'd explain my good reasons for my absences from Canada in my renewal application?
Yes, that sounds like a good idea. Just be polite and calm. They may say all kind of things to you, even that you have lost your PR and don't have a snowballs chance but if they don't actually report you, that's just meaningless talk and you would enter Canada and still be a PR.
 

Msafiri

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Nov 18, 2012
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magedhoh said:
Thanks Msafiri. My Father applied for citizenship in May 2011 (19 months ago). He still hasn't taken the test. Could you please tell me what you mean by residency questionnaire. Thank you :)
If CIC have doubts on the residence declared by an applicant for Citizenship or PR Card renewal then CIC will issue a Residence Questionnaire. This has to be filled out with proof of residence in Canada including employment letters, taxes filed etc. It is intrusive and significantly adds to processing times.

Your dad should request access to his file - a 19 month hold up to test is unusual where no RQ has been issued. CIC site has details on how to access your file under the Privacy Act.

Out of interest you state your parents took you out of Canada unwillingly but yet your dad has included you in his citizenship application. Also that you want to join your family in Canada..were your siblings not removed from Canada?

I think a major issue will be obtaining a US visa given your age unless you have strong ties to your current country of residence/ nationality.
 

magedhoh

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Sep 11, 2011
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Thanks Msafiri. I thought that, according to the processing times section on the CIC website, the average time required to process routine Canadian citizenship applications is 21 months, that's why my Father is expecting an invitation letter to the test and ceremony at any moment. Till now, my Father has been residing and working full time in Canada for almost 5 years now so I don't see why a residency questionnaire could be issued for our citizenship application (I suppose they only check that the major applicant for citizenship has been in Canada for 3 out of the 4 years before application, and not that the minor applicants (my younger brother and I) have met their residency requirements, is that right?)

My whole story is that I landed in Canada with my parents in 2006 when I was only 12 years old but I returned straight away to Egypt after just a week because my Father had work in Egypt and still didn't get a job offer in Canada. So basically I left Canada as a child who is innocently and ignorantly accompanying his parents, who didn't intend to leave Canada in the first place nor could make a conscious decision as to whether or not to stay in Canada. In February 2008, my Father got a job offer in Canada and so left for Canada by himself and I stayed with my mother and younger brother in Egypt and entered school there. I went to Canada for the second time, with my mother and younger brother to visit my father in the summer of 2008 for 3 months but then left to Egypt also accompanying my mother and younger brother (I was an ignorant 15 year old accompanying my mother out of Canada; I could not take the decision to stay in Canada by myself at the time nor did I know anything about my PR status let alone my residency obligations).

In Egypt, I enrolled in a British high school program which included courses in the summer so in the summer of 2009 I couldn't go to Canada to visit my father as the year before. My mother and younger brother left for Canada and returned to Egypt 3 months afterwards and I stayed with my grandparents for those 3 months of summer courses.

In June 2010 my mother and younger brother traveled to Canada without me, I didn't have summer courses that year so I also traveled to Canada and stayed there for about 3.5 months (from July to October) but I traveled alone that time because I had some exams late in the summer and my father hadn't wanted my mother and younger brother to wait till I finish my exams in July. My mother and younger brother remained in Canada since then and I returned to Egypt alone to finish my last year of high school.

On the 16th of March 2011, my PR card expired while I was outside Canada, in Egypt completing my last year of high school. Meanwhile, my father had completed his 3 years out of 4 residency obligation for citizenship and applied on the 20th of May 2011 for Canadian citizenship for himself and included me as a minor as I was just under 18 at the time. (Right now I am 19 and 5 months). Now I'd like to join my Father, Mother and younger brother who currently permanently reside in Canada and attend the upcoming citizenship ceremony.

Regarding obtaining a visa to the US, I understand that I must show very strong ties to Egypt that convince the US embassy officials that I'll leave the US after my visit. I'm currently enrolled full time, in good standing, at a medical school in Egypt, and I'm in my second year (which should be a strong enough tie). I applied for an international medical student conference that will be held in the US March of next year (organized by the American Medical Student Association), they'll support me with an invitation letter for a B2 visa.
 

magedhoh

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Sep 11, 2011
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I just wanted to ask what would happen if I miss my citizenship ceremony for any reason? Would CIC give me a second chance to attend a ceremony at a future time? Would I have to write them a letter before the ceremony explaining why I wouldn't be able to attend?
 

Leon

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magedhoh said:
I just wanted to ask what would happen if I miss my citizenship ceremony for any reason? Would CIC give me a second chance to attend a ceremony at a future time? Would I have to write them a letter before the ceremony explaining why I wouldn't be able to attend?
You have some time after the ceremony as well to explain why you could not attend. If they accept your reasons, they will re-schedule you at a later date but you don't know when. Could easily be a year later. If they realize that you do not meet the PR residency requirements, they will not give you citizenship and they could revoke your PR. You could appeal again based on having been removed from Canada by your parents as a minor and for that reason being unable to meet the requirements. However, it could work against you that you have currently made the decision to study outside Canada. You are not a minor any more so that is by your choice that you are staying outside now.
 

Msafiri

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Nov 18, 2012
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magedhoh said:
I just wanted to ask what would happen if I miss my citizenship ceremony for any reason? Would CIC give me a second chance to attend a ceremony at a future time? Would I have to write them a letter before the ceremony explaining why I wouldn't be able to attend?
1. As per CIC Operational bulletin 476 released 16 November 2012 no shows for a first test will get a second test invite. No shows for a second test will get RQ'd.

2. I must say you are an articulate 19 year old who has worked hard to get into medical school and appears to have a plan of action in place. However as Leon pointed out your window of 'I was removed from Canada as minor' is narrowing and will eventually zero out in regards to any appeals.

3. An added challenge is that foreign trained medical professionals have a tough time obtaining work in their field in Canada as their credentials are not necessarily recognized. You are better off getting into medical school here.

4. As per my earlier post it would be wise for your father to get his GCMS notes something appears amiss - my initial impression is expired background checks. Any hold ups in his processing affect you too.
 

magedhoh

Full Member
Sep 11, 2011
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Please Leon this is urgent! I finally got an invitation to take the oath of citizenship on the 15th of August 2013. I'm departing tomorrow for the US, then I'll go to Niagara Falls, NY and cross the Rainbow bridge (on the morning of July 29th) to Canada as a pedestrian. Should I tell the Canadian border officials that I have a citizenship ceremony coming up or should I just show them my expired PR card and tell them that I'd be renewing it when I enter Canada and that I'd explain my good reasons for my absences from Canada in my renewal application. If they find out from their system that I'm going to become a Canadian citizen soon then I don't think they'd believe me if I tell them I'm going to renew my PR card. Could you please advise me of the best I should tell them if they start asking me how long I was outside Canada and my reasons? Should I just explain my reasons to them on the spot? Thank you very much.
 

Leon

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I think it is best that you show them your expired PR card and say that you are going to attend your citizenship ceremony. If they ask if you meet the residency requirements, you can explain further. However, don't go crazy bombarding them with info, just answer their questions.

As a minor child on your fathers application, you were not required to meet the 1095 days / 4 years in order to get citizenship and you are still a PR although you do not meet the PR residency requirements. You have mitigating circumstances because you were removed from Canada as a minor by your parents and even if they were to report you, you would win the appeal because of that. However, you would not want them to report you because if they do, your PR would be in question and then you don't get citizenship.

If they ask if you are back in Canada for good, it would probably be better if you say that you are. If they were to report you and you appeal for your PR, you should definitely stay in Canada for the next 2 years if you want to keep your PR.