Freedom of movement

[zumbagirl]

Hello all,
I would like to bring up a policy issue.

Freedom of movement is a basic human right. It is part of the Canadian Charter also. It means that you can freely move around in your country and exit and re-enter your own country whenever you want.

In the EU freedom of movement of the citizens includes the right for free movement of family members even if the family members are not EU citizens. This in practice means that your non EU citizen spouse would immediately (without any consideration) would receive a Schengen entry visa when you want to enter to the EU with your non EU citizen spouse for example.
The reasoning behind this policy is that if that if the movement of your non EU family members are restricted by visas and or lengthy administrative processes than the rights for free movement of the EU citizens are also compromised. (you are not really free to move around if your family is not able to move with you)

In this sense Canada is seriously limiting the freedom a movement of Canadian citizens because they cannot enter Canada with their non Canadian spouses/ parents/ children etc. Canadian citizens might "stuck" abroad waiting years for the family class immigration process to be completed for their spouses. Forcing Canadians to chose between their families leaving abroad or returning to Canada without them. In my view this is seriously limiting the rights of Canadian citizens to freely return to Canada and or chose their place to live.

what do you think?

 

[AG317]

Agreed 100%

But just to clarify, even in the EU there still is some issues with this.
I was born and raised in Germany. Last year, my husband and I decided to move there for a while. He got a Schengen Visa and we left.
Once we got there, Germany did NOT issue him any residence papers or similar. They argued that he came with the wrong visa, we should have requested a family reunication visa instead. For that, I need to be in Germany, and he needs to be waiting abroad. Since I am German, and we moved to Germany, the German Immigration Laws apply.
But had we moved to England, Spain, France, any other EU country, the EU laws would have applied and he would have gotten his papers within a month, that is true.
It's a little complicated, trust me, we paid the price for not knowing exactly what it was we were getting ourselves into.

 

[zumbagirl]

Agreed 100%

But just to clarify, even in the EU there still is some issues with this.
I was born and raised in Germany. Last year, my husband and I decided to move there for a while. He got a Schengen Visa and we left.
Once we got there, Germany did NOT issue him any residence papers or similar. They argued that he came with the wrong visa, we should have requested a family reunication visa instead. For that, I need to be in Germany, and he needs to be waiting abroad. Since I am German, and we moved to Germany, the German Immigration Laws apply.
But had we moved to England, Spain, France, any other EU country, the EU laws would have applied and he would have gotten his papers within a month, that is true.
It's a little complicated, trust me, we paid the price for not knowing exactly what it was we were getting ourselves into.

Hi AG317
of course no system is perfect. I am really sorry to hear about your issues in Germany.

however the interpretation of freedom of movement rights there is very different from Canada.
good luck with your application!!!

 

[screech339]

The problem is that according to you, a jihadi husband can enter Canada because he has a Canadian jihadi bride when they decided to move back to Canada? Freedom of movement doesnt always apply in the literal sense to spouses/common law of Canadians, just because they are married / common law to Canadians.

Besides EU laws are different to Canadian laws. If you want to have the same freedom of movement as EU has, Canada must be part of EU to get the same privilege as EU citizens.

 

[zumbagirl]

The problem is that according to you, a jihadi husband can enter Canada because he has a Canadian jihadi bride when they decided to move back to Canada? Freedom of movement doesnt always apply in the literal sense to spouses/common law of Canadians, just because they are married / common law to Canadians.

Besides EU laws are different to Canadian laws. If you want to have the same freedom of movement as EU has, Canada must be part of EU to get the same privilege as EU citizens.

you are correct screech339, that is the issue what the Schengen countries are dealing with. However it is still an interesting legal problem whether your individual freedoms are limited (or not) because your spouse cant travel with you.

:'(

 

[GG and B]

My thoughts... I think Canada is handling immigration way smarter than EU / Schengen to be honest.

Yes, it sucks that we have to wait so long for processes and that the application is super complex and expensive and stressful. But Canada protects their country by looking very closely into who they are letting in which nowadays unfortunately is very important.

I actually think, the EU should do it like Canada and not the other way around.

 

[steaky]

Forcing Canadians to chose between their families leaving abroad or returning to Canada without them.

They have a third option - By living with their families abroad and move to Canada once each member (if not already PR/citizens) get their PR visa.

 

[mikeymyke]

They have a third option - By living with their families abroad and move to Canada once each member (if not already PR/citizens) get their PR visa.

Or get a visitor visa while the PR app is ongoing which is what my wife and I had done. OP made it sound as though foreign spouses have zero ability to be w their spouses

 

[Alurra71]

Hello all,
I would like to bring up a policy issue.

Freedom of movement is a basic human right. It is part of the Canadian Charter also. It means that you can freely move around in your country and exit and re-enter your own country whenever you want.

In the EU freedom of movement of the citizens includes the right for free movement of family members even if the family members are not EU citizens. This in practice means that your non EU citizen spouse would immediately (without any consideration) would receive a Schengen entry visa when you want to enter to the EU with your non EU citizen spouse for example.
The reasoning behind this policy is that if that if the movement of your non EU family members are restricted by visas and or lengthy administrative processes than the rights for free movement of the EU citizens are also compromised. (you are not really free to move around if your family is not able to move with you)

In this sense Canada is seriously limiting the freedom a movement of Canadian citizens because they cannot enter Canada with their non Canadian spouses/ parents/ children etc. Canadian citizens might "stuck" abroad waiting years for the family class immigration process to be completed for their spouses. Forcing Canadians to chose between their families leaving abroad or returning to Canada without them. In my view this is seriously limiting the rights of Canadian citizens to freely return to Canada and or chose their place to live.

what do you think?

I think it is a matter of your interpretation of the "Freedom of Movement" here. A Canadian is not free to move beyond his/her borders, until the intended destination has issued him/her a visa for arrival (assuming one is needed for the Canadian). The Canadian can however move around the country freely without hindrance and he/she is allowed to bring his/her spouse along with without ramifications if the spouse is already inside the border of Canada.

I think you are confusing the term here simply because the EU is made up of multiple countries. This country is made up only of this country ....

 

[zumbagirl]

I think it is a matter of your interpretation of the "Freedom of Movement" here. A Canadian is not free to move beyond his/her borders, until the intended destination has issued him/her a visa for arrival (assuming one is needed for the Canadian). The Canadian can however move around the country freely without hindrance and he/she is allowed to bring his/her spouse along with without ramifications if the spouse is already inside the border of Canada.

I think you are confusing the term here simply because the EU is made up of multiple countries. This country is made up only of this country ....

for your reading pleasure:

https://eumovement.wordpress.com/2007/04/15/requirements-for-a-short-stay-visa-family-of-eu-citizen/

You might find this interesting. it describes in simple terms what is required and what is not required to obtain a spousal visa.

it is interesting to contrast this with our Canadian system where bringing your family to Canada is not your right but a hard earned, slow and expensive privilege.

there are no perfect system for immigration but there are significant differences between countries in terms of values and priorities

 

[ImABule]

Or get a visitor visa while the PR app is ongoing which is what my wife and I had done. OP made it sound as though foreign spouses have zero ability to be w their spouses

For most people the ability to obtain a TRV while PR processes is nothing more than a pipe dream..

 

[screech339]

For most people the ability to obtain a TRV while PR processes is nothing more than a pipe dream..

I 100% agree. PR processing (staying permanently) negates TRV processing (staying temporarily).

 

[ImABule]

for your reading pleasure:

https://eumovement.wordpress.com/2007/04/15/requirements-for-a-short-stay-visa-family-of-eu-citizen/

You might find this interesting. it describes in simple terms what is required and what is not required to obtain a spousal visa.

it is interesting to contrast this with our Canadian system where bringing your family to Canada is not your right but a hard earned, slow and expensive privilege.

there are no perfect system for immigration but there are significant differences between countries in terms of values and priorities

I'm 100% in agreement that Canada has a very flawed family immigration system and that the EU model is much much better. It's actually ridiculous that someone can sign a 3 year undertaking and have their spouse still be denied a visa because one visa officer deems their relationship to be fraudulent.

 

[screech339]

I'm 100% in agreement that Canada has a very flawed family immigration system and that the EU model is much much better. It's actually ridiculous that someone can sign a 3 year undertaking and have their spouse still be denied a visa because one visa officer deems their relationship to be fraudulent.

If an visa officer deems a relationship to be fraudulent, he/she must have good reasons to come up with this decision. Remember, people in Canada do go through the motions of marriage / common law so the applicant can get PR for profit and / or as a favour to someone. Signing a 3 year commitment won't stop them.

 

[zumbagirl]

If an visa officer deems a relationship to be fraudulent, he/she must have good reasons to come up with this decision. Remember, people in Canada do go through the motions of marriage / common law so the applicant can get PR for profit and / or as a favour to someone. Signing a 3 year commitment won't stop them.

criminal issues such as fraudulent marriages should NOT be dealt with in the immigration framework.
That is a for a criminal justice system. The current system is designed to treat everybody as a criminal... although your only fault is that you are marring a person from abroad...