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Flagpoling - Posing a problem by telling a story

Layman

Full Member
Oct 16, 2012
31
1
Hello,

I was told and taught and now preach and practice that generally people like to approach issues by way of narrative. That is, through the use of a story....

Jack and John are two honest, hard-working, experienced and highly qualified Portuguese welders. They´re having a tough time finding employment in their occupation in Portugal, a country mired in the worse economic crisis in living memory ... and beyond. Problem is other European countries aren´t faring much better either.

They started searching the internet for work opportunities in their field in Canada - a country they were fond of and where friends and family are already residing. In a relatively short period of time they found an employer in the province of Alberta willing and eager to offer them and a batch of other G6 welders 2 yr. work contracts. The employer needs welders urgently - no time to wait. Even better, no LMO is now required for that occupation in Alberta. So, that´s one big obstacle and delay out of the way.

All they have to do, since welder is an occupation where certification is compulsory in Alberta, is wait about 6 weeks to have their work experience verified by the Alberta Apprenticeship and Industry Training System. That should be no problem as long as their former employers pick up the phone when the official from the AAITS decides to phone.

OOooppss ... a major roadblock has appeared in their path and dampened their spirits. Although they´re visa-exempt, since they´ve been continuously residing on the mainland, a medical exam is required. And just because Continental Portugal has a higher incidence of tuberculosis than Canada. Well, that really spoiled their plans. They were aiming to obtain the WP at the POE. Now, they must apply for a work visa at the Embassy in Paris, which means it will take another 4-6 months before they´re cleared. Ain´t no way the employer is going to wait that long. They don´t want to risk letting the job opportunity slip away, so risk it is what they will have to do.

They plan to slip into Canada as visitors (since no Visa is required) and one week later sign the work contracts with the employer awaiting them (a copy of which they had already received by e-mail).

Before going to the nearest border, they pay a Canadian registered doctor to perform exactly the same medical examination as they would have had to perform in Portugal with a panel physician. In Portugal it would have cost them exactly 237.50€. Hopefully, it will be cheaper in Canada.

Within days they receive the results of the examination(s). Great news. Just what they expected - a good medical report. And, of course, no tuberculosis.

Now, they take off to the border to obtain their WPs. They present their work contracts and a certified and translated true copy of there criminal record to te government official who attends them. The official then requests the medical examinations ...

OK ... drum-roll.... can I have an opinins from the experts ... especially the experts on legal matters on how this story will end??

They didn´t do it by the book, but they proved they have no health issues that warrants them inadmissible. So, what´s next?

Thanx for reading this and please reply. Pretty please with a cherry and sugar on top. :D This is a "true" story and a dead serious concern.
 

Layman

Full Member
Oct 16, 2012
31
1
Please .... can someone post a reply ... comment ... make an assessment ... computergeel, Scylla, PMM and others where are you? :-[
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
95,840
22,108
Toronto
Category........
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Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
If you need a medical, I don't think you can be issued a work permit at the border. I believe you have no choice but to mail in your application.

I'm not certain this is the right answer. Hopefully someone else can confirm.
 

wilson

VIP Member
Oct 11, 2008
4,405
324
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If you are in good health and in possession of a medical report to support, then you are eligible to apply for a work permit as you enter Canada (at the POE).
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
95,840
22,108
Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
wilson said:
If you are in good health and in possession of a medical report to support, then you are eligible to apply for a work permit as you enter Canada (at the POE).
My bad - ignore what I said. I couldn't the reference on the CIC site anyway...
 

amikety

VIP Member
Dec 4, 2011
4,905
143
Calgary
Category........
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Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
15-01-2013
AOR Received.
2-2-2013
Med's Done....
12-10-2012
Passport Req..
9-07-2013
VISA ISSUED...
7-08-2013
LANDED..........
7-08-2013
Canada allows the change of status from visitor to worker. If they ask why, I would just be honest and tell them it was easier to get the medical done in Canada.
 

motherinlaw

Newbie
Feb 7, 2011
5
0
In answer to the original Posting...

The medical (with or without LMO) must be current within last 6 months.

Let me advise what we learned on Saturday night about "Flagpoling" and please be aware of the long term effects that can come about.

A Class 1 truck driver with full licencing and credentials, is offered a position here in Canada. He goes through all required steps including the medical and the company who offers the position applys for the LMO in the first half of the year.
In September the family is advised that the LMO is imminent and they move to Canada. By New Years there still is no LMO in place. After lobbying MLA and others, they search out an alternate employer who has open LMO. Within 10 days they have the LMO from Immigration and head down to the border to get the work permits.
Here is where it gets tricky. The US "Denies entry" not only for him but for his 4 family members. This stays on their record for life. Even the 11 year old. They are escorted back to Canada by a gun-toting official... yes they have WP now... but can't go into USA or leave Canada for any reason.
 

amikety

VIP Member
Dec 4, 2011
4,905
143
Calgary
Category........
Visa Office......
CPP-O
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
15-01-2013
AOR Received.
2-2-2013
Med's Done....
12-10-2012
Passport Req..
9-07-2013
VISA ISSUED...
7-08-2013
LANDED..........
7-08-2013
You didn't have to try to enter the US. You could've just informed them you were flagpoling with no intention to enter. It would've given you an administrative refusal and immediately entry to the Canadian side.
 

motherinlaw

Newbie
Feb 7, 2011
5
0
That is exactly what we did. Told them we were only there to turn around and go back.

Guy was in a bad mood I think. We were very polite, and told the absolute truth.

What is the difference between "denied entry" and "administrative refusal?" There was no reason put on the paper.

Canadian Immigration told us that it means from now and forever, any one of the 5 will have to declare that they were refused entry and most likely will not be allowed into the US.

I am an American and understand much of the immigration process but I am not familiar with this.

Also, they were told that if ANY of them leave Canada for any reason, they are not promised re-entry. The oldest daughter (17) was planning a vacation in Germany for August, but Immigration said she could very well be refused entry back into Canada to re-join her family after the vacation.
 

amikety

VIP Member
Dec 4, 2011
4,905
143
Calgary
Category........
Visa Office......
CPP-O
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
15-01-2013
AOR Received.
2-2-2013
Med's Done....
12-10-2012
Passport Req..
9-07-2013
VISA ISSUED...
7-08-2013
LANDED..........
7-08-2013
The administrative refusal is basically a record you showed up, but they don't flag it as a refusal in the system. It would have little to no effect on any other attempts to enter the USA.

Does the daughter need a visa or is she visa exempt?

Honestly, she's a minor. If her guardians are in Canada legally, the chances of her being refusal entry are very small.
 

motherinlaw

Newbie
Feb 7, 2011
5
0
So does that mean we cancel our plans for a US holiday with this family in July?
We had planned a 5 day road trip to a car show in Washington with my antique cars.
They were to bring one of them with them and see a bit of the USA.

This family has been through he** over the last year through all of the process and could really use a little fun.

The sponsorship I have given them is the only reason they have not been on the streets for the last 3 months.
 

amikety

VIP Member
Dec 4, 2011
4,905
143
Calgary
Category........
Visa Office......
CPP-O
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
15-01-2013
AOR Received.
2-2-2013
Med's Done....
12-10-2012
Passport Req..
9-07-2013
VISA ISSUED...
7-08-2013
LANDED..........
7-08-2013
Well, I'm not an expert on American immigration, but if the IO told you it would likely make them ineligible to enter the USA, then he's probably speaking the truth.

They might want to apply for visitor's visa (or whatever the US calls them) for the trips. That way either they will be able to show ties to Canada and make getting refused less likely.

What country are they from?

One of the biggest issues they're facing is the US describes it's border with Canada as 'leaky.' It's very easy to cross in some areas - just walk across a town. Right now, experts estimate (note I said estimate because that's what they do, not hard facts) that more contraband and illegals enter the US through the Canadian border than Mexican. These IOs were probably worried about that - and will continue to worry about it.

Frankly, a brand new job isn't much of a 'tie' to Canada. The IO is probably worried they are really seeking to enter the US and look for a job or work illegally. Some people do lie about everything to get their scam in - and the rest of us get punished for it. I'm not a big fan of getting punished for other's bad deeds, but that's life. Life isn't fair.
 

motherinlaw

Newbie
Feb 7, 2011
5
0
They are from Germany.
The husband has 2 year contract on LMO for Class 1 driving. I think that he will not be able to drive cross-border. He also must drive long haul, and his log books submitted to Imm.

The wife was given an open work permit with exception to health care, children or teaching because she had no medical with her at the border... again, if we had only known...

I was told by someone who has experience with LMO that they should apply for their PR right away, that they can only get 3 extensions to the WP. Immigration site says that they can't apply for PR before 3 - 5 years, but I know we applied within less time than that for my future son in law from Oklahoma and he got his done.

So much paper to drag through... one step at a time.
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
95,840
22,108
Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
motherinlaw said:
So does that mean we cancel our plans for a US holiday with this family in July?
We had planned a 5 day road trip to a car show in Washington with my antique cars.
They were to bring one of them with them and see a bit of the USA.

This family has been through he** over the last year through all of the process and could really use a little fun.

The sponsorship I have given them is the only reason they have not been on the streets for the last 3 months.
They need to determine what sort of refusal they receive before they try re-entering the US. They need to determine if they were given an administrative refusal, simply refused or actually banned for some period of time. They would have received some kind of paperwork or stamp. Google the ID / number - this should tell you what they are facing. Unlike Canada, the US takes an extremely harsh stances towards those who try to re-enter when they are not allowed to. I definitely wouldn't try crossing the border again until they understand EXACTLY what sort of refusal they received.
 

amikety

VIP Member
Dec 4, 2011
4,905
143
Calgary
Category........
Visa Office......
CPP-O
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
15-01-2013
AOR Received.
2-2-2013
Med's Done....
12-10-2012
Passport Req..
9-07-2013
VISA ISSUED...
7-08-2013
LANDED..........
7-08-2013
motherinlaw said:
They are from Germany.
The husband has 2 year contract on LMO for Class 1 driving. I think that he will not be able to drive cross-border. He also must drive long haul, and his log books submitted to Imm.

The wife was given an open work permit with exception to health care, children or teaching because she had no medical with her at the border... again, if we had only known...

I was told by someone who has experience with LMO that they should apply for their PR right away, that they can only get 3 extensions to the WP. Immigration site says that they can't apply for PR before 3 - 5 years, but I know we applied within less time than that for my future son in law from Oklahoma and he got his done.

So much paper to drag through... one step at a time.
Are you in Alberta? Check into AINP Alberta provincial nomination.