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Express Entry is look like PGWP holder's enemy :(

Chintan.patel

Hero Member
Oct 19, 2012
244
108
Category........
FAM
Candidates on open work permits and working in Canada need more visibility in Express Entry system.

The Express Entry system for immigration, putting thousands of temporary workers on post graduate work permit in great difficulty. Foreigners graduating from Canadian universities and colleges formerly had various options to stay. Consequently, many of us did work towards said options, as life resulted in many of us losing their heart to this county. We have been in Canada for 3 to 6 years, have settled down, adapted and assimilated with the Canadian society and culture. Also, we already have full time jobs which we had to compete for. In fact, well-integrated and hard-working students bring many benefits to Canada:

- Our brains! An economy thrives when people create and innovate. Studies show that nearly half of innovative start-ups are founded by immigrants. However, in order to continue doing so, we need more than just a (hard-to-get) start-up visa.
- Your future. Much like in most Western countries, Canada's suffering from an aging population. We'd be your tax-payers of the future. So, don't throw us out just yet...
- We have special skills. For dozens of years, immigrants have brought many benefits to Canadian businesses. Not only are we well-educated and hard-working, we also add a ton of value with our language skills. Many of us speak and write more than 5 (!) languages.
- We create jobs. Immigrants found about 50% of new ventures. Down the line, this means that we don't just create our own job but many more. Look at Montreal, Toronto, or Vancouver: the number of foreign business owners is immense!
- We have a Canadian education: most foreign post-graduates studied in Canada for 2 to 4 years.
- Our youth and health: We are young and thus not a major burden on the heath system (yet, we pay the health premiums as part of our taxes).
- Most of us are single: International students will most probably be immigrating to Canada by themselves, thus neither burdening Canada by bringing in families nor using the health and education systems.

Unfortunately, the recent draw in the Express Entry system brought up the following concerns:

1. Points awarded for Canadian work experience are too few (Considering the whole thing is out of 1200).

2. We did not get CRS-Arranged Employment points since we already have a full time job without LMIA as we are on PGWP?

3. We are (in most cases) educated in Canada often with 2 to 4 year degrees.

4. Our English language skills are up to the mark.

5. We have work experience here.

6. We required to create a Job Bank profile even though we have full time jobs?

7. We are already in Canada, often for 3-6 years and have already settled down, adapted and assimilated with the Canadian society and culture.

8. We already have full time jobs which we had to compete and struggle for to acquire.

9. As international students we have been contributing to the Canadian economy by paying extremely high fees (including fees, residence, travel, food and other expenses).

10. We have been paying taxes on our salaries as well as other purchases for 3-6 years we have been here.

11. We are young and thus not a major burden on the health system (and we pay the health premiums in our taxes).

12. International students will most probably be immigrating to Canada by themselves, thus not burdening Canada by bringing in families and burdening the health and education systems with a few exceptions.

13. We are already working in Canada on open PGWP, this puts us in a very difficult position in terms of being LMIA exempt. Our employers are mostly not willing to apply for LMIA or they might even let us go thinking that we are only going to be in CANADA for a short time period. No promotions either if he finds out about this whole LMIA thing.

14. We are mostly recent graduate and cannot score anything for the foreign experience section, as we mostly have Canadian work experience again with a few exceptions.

15. Even if you bring in foreign workers with foreign work experience, trust me Canadian companies prefer candidates with Canadian experience first (so why not keep PGWP with experience here).

16. Some of us are in a very difficult situation as their work permits are expiring soon and by the time few draws are done and CRS comes down to their level it would be too late.

17. Having a job offer and an LMIA doesn't mean you're going to integrate fantastically well in Canada, you might get fired after a week for being useless. You would think a year or more of proven work experience with a Canadian employer would be afforded more recognition

So below are our suggestions

1. Let candidates who are in express entry pool and have expiring post graduate work permit be allowed to extend their post graduate work permits.

2. Eliminate LMIA requirement for Candidates on post graduate work permit and award them the 600 points.

3. If LMIA requirement cannot be eliminated then atleast make LMIA process easy and educate employers and promote employers to apply for LMIA. Also increase points awarded for Canadian experience.
 

vishal23489

Star Member
May 1, 2013
180
2
Toronto
Category........
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
Hi Chintan,
I am totally agreed and equally disappointed with this EE evaluation system.

I am on PGWP and it took 5 months of day/nights to get this job. now LMIA is something impossible for people like us who have job on hand.

What do we do now?
Experts give us suggestion pls
 

riddymon

Hero Member
Jun 26, 2013
467
72
Category........
NOC Code......
2174
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
For the majority of us PGWP'ers - Provincial nomination is our best option as the majority of us fall in the 400 - 450 points range so I'd advise to go that route if possible. Nova Scotia introduced a new stream (Nova Scotia Experience - Express Entry) in May that made nomination the obvious (read "easiest") option for us and personally that's made this journey exponentially easier for me. In a matter of one or two months, I went from worrying about my future in Canada to wondering when I'll receive PPR. However, nova scotia has been experiencing a huge brain drain lately with many people heading out west looking for higher salaries and less taxes so it worked in our favor. I'm sure this is not the case for other provinces like ontario, alberta, bc, etc. which has put many PGWP holders in a very awkward position.

Many people on here will argue that getting an education in Canada doesn't entitle you to Permanent Residency or Citizenship which I agree with - however, many of us have spent the majority of our adult lives (I came at 18 and am now 33 - 3 of those years I went back home to work and support my family - most of the time was spent in school and I only recently applied for PR) here or at least been here long enough to become settled productive citizens so to now be in a position where all that could end up going to waste and you're forced to pick up and head elsewhere is very nerve-wracking. I could imagine that this is the root of your argument and I absolutely feel you on that.

I definitely understand your frustration...continue to explore your options and I pray that things will work out for you and everyone else here in that situation.
 

vishal23489

Star Member
May 1, 2013
180
2
Toronto
Category........
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
Happy to hear about your progress :) best of luck in future, and hopefully you ill get your PPR soon.

I am in Toronto and that's the problem.
bigger problem is - I have (awesome) job on hand in Toronto itself, but hard to get LMIA now

I have talked to my manager about EE and my situation - he is supportive and asked for help from HR (for LMIA)
I am glad to know that they have helped employees for LMO before but in my case (LMIA) advertisement part is hard to tackle (knowing the fact that I am already hired)

Don't know what to do !!
Anyways, thanks for your concerns.
 

kettysem

Member
Apr 16, 2015
13
0
Chintan.patel said:
Candidates on open work permits and working in Canada need more visibility in Express Entry system.

The Express Entry system for immigration, putting thousands of temporary workers on post graduate work permit in great difficulty. Foreigners graduating from Canadian universities and colleges formerly had various options to stay. Consequently, many of us did work towards said options, as life resulted in many of us losing their heart to this county. We have been in Canada for 3 to 6 years, have settled down, adapted and assimilated with the Canadian society and culture. Also, we already have full time jobs which we had to compete for. In fact, well-integrated and hard-working students bring many benefits to Canada:

- Our brains! An economy thrives when people create and innovate. Studies show that nearly half of innovative start-ups are founded by immigrants. However, in order to continue doing so, we need more than just a (hard-to-get) start-up visa.
- Your future. Much like in most Western countries, Canada's suffering from an aging population. We'd be your tax-payers of the future. So, don't throw us out just yet...
- We have special skills. For dozens of years, immigrants have brought many benefits to Canadian businesses. Not only are we well-educated and hard-working, we also add a ton of value with our language skills. Many of us speak and write more than 5 (!) languages.
- We create jobs. Immigrants found about 50% of new ventures. Down the line, this means that we don't just create our own job but many more. Look at Montreal, Toronto, or Vancouver: the number of foreign business owners is immense!
- We have a Canadian education: most foreign post-graduates studied in Canada for 2 to 4 years.
- Our youth and health: We are young and thus not a major burden on the heath system (yet, we pay the health premiums as part of our taxes).
- Most of us are single: International students will most probably be immigrating to Canada by themselves, thus neither burdening Canada by bringing in families nor using the health and education systems.

Unfortunately, the recent draw in the Express Entry system brought up the following concerns:

1. Points awarded for Canadian work experience are too few (Considering the whole thing is out of 1200).

2. We did not get CRS-Arranged Employment points since we already have a full time job without LMIA as we are on PGWP?

3. We are (in most cases) educated in Canada often with 2 to 4 year degrees.

4. Our English language skills are up to the mark.

5. We have work experience here.

6. We required to create a Job Bank profile even though we have full time jobs?

7. We are already in Canada, often for 3-6 years and have already settled down, adapted and assimilated with the Canadian society and culture.

8. We already have full time jobs which we had to compete and struggle for to acquire.

9. As international students we have been contributing to the Canadian economy by paying extremely high fees (including fees, residence, travel, food and other expenses).

10. We have been paying taxes on our salaries as well as other purchases for 3-6 years we have been here.

11. We are young and thus not a major burden on the health system (and we pay the health premiums in our taxes).

12. International students will most probably be immigrating to Canada by themselves, thus not burdening Canada by bringing in families and burdening the health and education systems with a few exceptions.

13. We are already working in Canada on open PGWP, this puts us in a very difficult position in terms of being LMIA exempt. Our employers are mostly not willing to apply for LMIA or they might even let us go thinking that we are only going to be in CANADA for a short time period. No promotions either if he finds out about this whole LMIA thing.

14. We are mostly recent graduate and cannot score anything for the foreign experience section, as we mostly have Canadian work experience again with a few exceptions.

15. Even if you bring in foreign workers with foreign work experience, trust me Canadian companies prefer candidates with Canadian experience first (so why not keep PGWP with experience here).

16. Some of us are in a very difficult situation as their work permits are expiring soon and by the time few draws are done and CRS comes down to their level it would be too late.

17. Having a job offer and an LMIA doesn't mean you're going to integrate fantastically well in Canada, you might get fired after a week for being useless. You would think a year or more of proven work experience with a Canadian employer would be afforded more recognition

So below are our suggestions

1. Let candidates who are in express entry pool and have expiring post graduate work permit be allowed to extend their post graduate work permits.

2. Eliminate LMIA requirement for Candidates on post graduate work permit and award them the 600 points.

3. If LMIA requirement cannot be eliminated then atleast make LMIA process easy and educate employers and promote employers to apply for LMIA. Also increase points awarded for Canadian experience.
Look at this situation from government's point of view. When you apply for non immigration visa, they directly ask you "Do you have immigration intentions" what do you reply? of course "No". And then you extend your visa and then apply for PR, so they think you lied to them. You DO have immigration intentions. When outlanders openly state that they want to immigrate. Those are the words of my friend, who works in government, so maybe CIC also thinks so? I hope not
 

uxd

Hero Member
Feb 27, 2015
226
6
Ontario
Category........
Visa Office......
Ottawa
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
01-09-2015
AOR Received.
01-09-2015
Med's Done....
04-09-2015
Passport Req..
16-10-2015
VISA ISSUED...
6-11-2015 copr rcvd
When they know most will immigrate then why do they ask this question. Of course people will immigrate and will find job here only after spending so much and studying here. This is not rocket science.
 

mead

VIP Member
May 4, 2012
4,107
167
Visa Office......
delhi
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
27-11-2012
Doc's Request.
28-11-2012
IELTS Request
n/a
Med's Request
n/a
Med's Done....
n/a
VISA ISSUED...
6-12-2012
this is copy paste from the online petition...lol ....plagiarism
https://www.change.org/p/citizenship-and-immigration-canada-candidates-on-open-work-permits-and-working-in-canada-need-more-visibility-in-express-entry-system
 

dobes

Champion Member
Nov 23, 2014
1,177
95
Category........
NOC Code......
1123
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
vishal23489 said:
Happy to hear about your progress :) best of luck in future, and hopefully you ill get your PPR soon.

I am in Toronto and that's the problem.
bigger problem is - I have (awesome) job on hand in Toronto itself, but hard to get LMIA now

I have talked to my manager about EE and my situation - he is supportive and asked for help from HR (for LMIA)
I am glad to know that they have helped employees for LMO before but in my case (LMIA) advertisement part is hard to tackle (knowing the fact that I am already hired)

Don't know what to do !!
Anyways, thanks for your concerns.
For you, an Ontario nomination is a good idea if your points are over 400. You should have your IELTS score ready and apply for EE, and then Ontario may contact you. A PNP from them will also give you 600 points. Although I had an open work permit, not a PGWP, as a result of my partner being a full-time student in Toronto, my situation was similar. I had a job I competed with Canadians for - and won. I love my job, but getting an LMIA for it would have been next to impossible, as Canadians would have applied if we had advertised the job as required. It also would have been a little cruel, since they would have been interviewing for a job they were not going to get. I didn't take that route.

Instead, both my partner and I got the highest possible scores for our English abilities, and I got credit for working in Canada as well as in another country. With a score of over 460, you will get invited eventually, and we did.

The Ontario human capital stream is specifically for people like us (though I got an ITA before it existed). You have a leg up over other applicants who do not yet have ties to Ontario. If your CRS score is over 460, I wouldn't worry, as you will get invited, but if it is between 400-460, I would see if making an EE profile draws Ontario's attention and, if it does, I would apply. Good luck!
 

cartwright

Star Member
Jul 31, 2015
129
4
dobes said:
For you, an Ontario nomination is a good idea if your points are over 400. You should have your IELTS score ready and apply for EE, and then Ontario may contact you. A PNP from them will also give you 600 points. Although I had an open work permit, not a PGWP, as a result of my partner being a full-time student in Toronto, my situation was similar. I had a job I competed with Canadians for - and won. I love my job, but getting an LMIA for it would have been next to impossible, as Canadians would have applied if we had advertised the job as required. It also would have been a little cruel, since they would have been interviewing for a job they were not going to get. I didn't take that route.

Instead, both my partner and I got the highest possible scores for our English abilities, and I got credit for working in Canada as well as in another country. With a score of over 460, you will get invited eventually, and we did.

The Ontario human capital stream is specifically for people like us (though I got an ITA before it existed). You have a leg up over other applicants who do not yet have ties to Ontario. If your CRS score is over 460, I wouldn't worry, as you will get invited, but if it is between 400-460, I would see if making an EE profile draws Ontario's attention and, if it does, I would apply. Good luck!
Perfectly summed up dobes. Congrats on your PPR.
 

Fitztorious

Star Member
Sep 3, 2013
79
7
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
To young students looking at getting PR in Canada after University/College:

We are going to assume the score never drops below 450. To get and ITA as an international student you need to take a 3 or 4 year program at a Canadian University or College where you will be awarded a Bachelor Degree. 3 year programs are usually general degrees while 4 year programs will generally give you a better chance of finding a job. Once you finish you will be issued a 3 year PGWP, if you apply. You will have 3 years to get 2 years experience in any NOC A or B level job. Depending on how well you score on your language test you should be chosen quite quickly once you create a profile. 9 in all categories for the CELPIP will get you 457 and 10+ in all categories will get you 469. You will likely have around 6 months or less left on your PGWP when you receive an ITA. Apply for a BOWP if necessary and hopefully everything goes smoothly on your first submission.
 

mead

VIP Member
May 4, 2012
4,107
167
Visa Office......
delhi
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
27-11-2012
Doc's Request.
28-11-2012
IELTS Request
n/a
Med's Request
n/a
Med's Done....
n/a
VISA ISSUED...
6-12-2012
Fitztorious said:
To young students looking at getting PR in Canada after University/College:

We are going to assume the score never drops below 450. To get and ITA as an international student you need to take a 3 or 4 year program at a Canadian University or College where you will be awarded a Bachelor Degree. 3 year programs are usually general degrees while 4 year programs will generally give you a better chance of finding a job. Once you finish you will be issued a 3 year PGWP, if you apply. You will have 3 years to get 2 years experience in any NOC A or B level job. Depending on how well you score on your language test you should be chosen quite quickly once you create a profile. 9 in all categories for the CELPIP will get you 457 and 10+ in all categories will get you 469. You will likely have around 6 months or less left on your PGWP when you receive an ITA. Apply for a BOWP if necessary and hopefully everything goes smoothly on your first submission.
yes but its still unpredictable as compared to earlier when CEC was first come first serve and pretty much guaranteed PR even if it took years. students who came before 2015 did not get any indication that it will be so difficult. even though we have jobs we dont get 600 points . this was not clarified before launch of express entry.
 

Hansdza

Hero Member
Mar 7, 2013
426
41
Canada
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
I am myself a PGWP holder and I know how if feels that we are treated exactly the same with other people around the world who get their education assessed by WES and equivalent to Canadian degree. I am lucky enough to have a long skilled experience in my home country prior to the launching of EE system. Without that, my score with 1 yr Canadian experience would not have been competitive enough to expect an ITA

I know it hurts a lot to international students coz many (of course not all) of them have intention to stay permanently in Canada after graduation and they find out that the scoring system is big hurdle for immigration.

I personally advice young student in my home country not to pursue post secondary education in Canada at least at this time with the current EE scoring system. Rather I ask them to pursue education elsewhere, get 3 years exp then come to Canada as a graduate student or apply directly to express entry. I told them there are too many things to go through to become PR as an International student including difficulty to find a job after graduation

Lets be honest, the sweetest thing about Canadian degree is the opportunity to become a PR after graduation. I remember exactly when I attended Canadian education fair in my country one of the selling point of the institution promoting their school is the Immigration opportunity.

The EE system Is government political decision, there's nothing we can do about it and we cannot blame anybody about that. Even if, say, someday in the future, Canadian government shut it immigration doors entirely. We can do nothing but to accept the fact.

If my score was too low to get an ITA, I wouldn't have the courage to bet on my life hoping the system will change or score dramatically go down. definitely I'd go back and pursue my dream elsewhere. The time and money I invested for pursuing education in Canada will give it return someday in the future.

Life is a set of choices and we make our decision based on limited information.
 

r1987

Star Member
Feb 28, 2012
146
1
Category........
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
06/10/15
Nomination.....
17/09/15
AOR Received.
06/10/15
Med's Done....
29/06/15
LANDED..........
Inland
Hansdza said:
I am myself a PGWP holder and I know how if feels that we are treated exactly the same with other people around the world who get their education assessed by WES and equivalent to Canadian degree. I am lucky enough to have a long skilled experience in my home country prior to the launching of EE system. Without that, my score with 1 yr Canadian experience would not have been competitive enough to expect an ITA

I know it hurts a lot to international students coz many (of course not all) of them have intention to stay permanently in Canada after graduation and they find out that the scoring system is big hurdle for immigration.

I personally advice young student in my home country not to pursue post secondary education in Canada at least at this time with the current EE scoring system. Rather I ask them to pursue education elsewhere, get 3 years exp then come to Canada as a graduate student or apply directly to express entry. I told them there are too many things to go through to become PR as an International student including difficulty to find a job after graduation

Lets be honest, the sweetest thing about Canadian degree is the opportunity to become a PR after graduation. I remember exactly when I attended Canadian education fair in my country one of the selling point of the institution promoting their school is the Immigration opportunity.

The EE system Is government political decision, there's nothing we can do about it and we cannot blame anybody about that. Even if, say, someday in the future, Canadian government shut it immigration doors entirely. We can do nothing but to accept the fact.

If my score was too low to get an ITA, I wouldn't have the courage to bet on my life hoping the system will change or score dramatically go down. definitely I'd go back and pursue my dream elsewhere. The time and money I invested for pursuing education in Canada will give it return someday in the future.

Life is a set of choices and we make our decision based on limited information.
+1

Nicely said. I wouldn't said better myself. Quote of the day "Life is a set of choices and we make our decision based on limited information."
 

vishal23489

Star Member
May 1, 2013
180
2
Toronto
Category........
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
Hey Dobes,
Thanks for the advice.
My score will be 449 (if I get high marking in tomorrow's CELPIP exam) - also WES process is almost completed
I am going to create my EE profile once I get my CELPIP result and will see what happens.
Hoping to get ITA from OOPNP (Hoping to get it based on your story and some of my friends' stories as well)
-----------------
Apart from that -
I have talked to my HR already and my manager is already supporting me for this LMIA process.
I have 1:1 meeting with my HR director to talk about this LMIA procedure on 22nd Sept.
Any suggestions you could give me on this to tackle the situation for EE?

dobes said:
For you, an Ontario nomination is a good idea if your points are over 400. You should have your IELTS score ready and apply for EE, and then Ontario may contact you. A PNP from them will also give you 600 points. Although I had an open work permit, not a PGWP, as a result of my partner being a full-time student in Toronto, my situation was similar. I had a job I competed with Canadians for - and won. I love my job, but getting an LMIA for it would have been next to impossible, as Canadians would have applied if we had advertised the job as required. It also would have been a little cruel, since they would have been interviewing for a job they were not going to get. I didn't take that route.

Instead, both my partner and I got the highest possible scores for our English abilities, and I got credit for working in Canada as well as in another country. With a score of over 460, you will get invited eventually, and we did.

The Ontario human capital stream is specifically for people like us (though I got an ITA before it existed). You have a leg up over other applicants who do not yet have ties to Ontario. If your CRS score is over 460, I wouldn't worry, as you will get invited, but if it is between 400-460, I would see if making an EE profile draws Ontario's attention and, if it does, I would apply. Good luck!