Express entry based on LMIA (Not fair to international Grads)

[Dennia]

I recently read a post that states,"valid work experience, good educational qualification, communication skills can fetch you an ITA". My reply to this post is below. I would love to hear everyones comment on this

This is just an asset but doesnt fetch you an ITA. A LMIA or PNP is the only one that grants an individual a guranteed ITA. An International Grad residing in Canada even with all major qualifications that you have mentioned in the post are being pushed back because of their system that provides max points for LMIA.Even if you have a valid job offer,that doesnt qualify the individual for those points without an LMIA,which is totally unfair for any international Grad (This was never a requirement for employers to hire an international grad till 2014 and still not a criteria).

I do agree LMIA a good system that can help Canada to maintain its job market by hiring immigrants,but I dont agree with LMIA being a criteria for International students as they are given an open work permit after graduation

In my opinion, I think CIC is doing a mistake by not filtering their points system on basis of NOC's,they might still not be getting skilled workers but letting people to immigrate in their country who can buy a LMIA (There is certain system in place to maintain and monitor,but there are also loop holes). We will actually know their success rate on EE only after they publish their results on the basis of NOC ( A cook is as important as an engineer,but CIC's success rate completely depends on the balance)

 

[kateg]

If they want to adjust the NOC balance, they can do it through LMIAs rather than through scores. Make it easier to get an engineering LMIA than a cook LMIA, and there will be more engineers than cooks.

As for being unfair, it is. People get a free several year work permit just because they graduated from a Canadian university, when qualified candidates elsewhere are unable to work in Canada at all.

Canada owes graduates nothing, yet they give them easy qualification for CEC, legal status in the country to find work (unlike people overseas), and then even give them a work permit for years to give their employer time to obtain a LMIA. Any other candidate would have to find the employer first (very hard to do from outside Canada), then find an employer in dire need of an employee who is willing to wait months to have that need met.

Given Canada's economic priorities, they should really limit or eliminate the PGWP program beyond the year to qualify for CEC. One and done.

 

[Dennia]

LMIA is a 15 page document with all personal details that needs to be completed by an employer. How many employers in Canada are willing to fill out that document?,the max that you can expect from an employer is a permannet job offer and nothin more. They rather hire a local candidate to save the trouble. This might help a canadian born, who might not be actually qualified (tht is actual purpose of this system), but kills the purpose of bringing international students to Canada

I dont understand why do international Grads need to go through the same process as other immigrants? According to Canada's old system students were invited to study in Canada and an open work permit was given to them in order to become economically established and contribute further to Canada's econonmy ( Even before becoming an immigrant an International Student contributes to canada's economical growth through tuition fees and other expenses ,an international student fees is twice or thrice the regular tuition fees). Something should change, the EE system or atleast honour the old system(the old system just needed a job offer).

I really cant disagree on this statement "Given Canada's economic priorities, they should really limit or eliminate the PGWP program". This makes more sense to me

 

[mead]

If they want to adjust the NOC balance, they can do it through LMIAs rather than through scores. Make it easier to get an engineering LMIA than a cook LMIA, and there will be more engineers than cooks.

As for being unfair, it is. People get a free several year work permit just because they graduated from a Canadian university, when qualified candidates elsewhere are unable to work in Canada at all.

Canada owes graduates nothing, yet they give them easy qualification for CEC, legal status in the country to find work (unlike people overseas), and then even give them a work permit for years to give their employer time to obtain a LMIA. Any other candidate would have to find the employer first (very hard to do from outside Canada), then find an employer in dire need of an employee who is willing to wait months to have that need met.

Given Canada's economic priorities, they should really limit or eliminate the PGWP program beyond the year to qualify for CEC. One and done.

students have to get admission which is competitive then pay 3 times the fees that canadians pay. students bring in lots of money in terms of fees. students are young and canada needs young people too. students in canada education and canadian experience can be verified easily as opposed to out of canada which can be faked.
canada owes graduates noting and also canada owes nothing to people over seas. if canada does not want students then they should stop issuing so many study permits. so the whole express entry is flawed as it puts experienced people with young graduates in the same pool. People out side canada may not be right for job in canada. once they get PR they would leave the company that did their LMIA. Third world country people can fake experience /education(see the fake degree scandal in Pakistan no offense to anyone) . lots of problem with express entry.
Graduated and open work permit holder should be kept separate and then make it easy for experienced people around the world to apply for PR.

 

[kateg]

[this] kills the purpose of bringing international students to Canada

The purpose of bringing international students to Canada is to sell them an education. It's a "Temporary Resident" program, and the students agree to leave upon completion of their studies and PGWP.

I dont understand why do international Grads need to go through the same process as other immigrants?

They don't. CEC is a special fast track system for them.

According to Canada's old system students were invited to study in Canada and an open work permit was given to them in order to become economically established and contribute further to Canada's econonmy ( Even before becoming an immigrant an International Student contributes to canada's economical growth through tuition fees and other expenses ,an international student fees is twice or thrice the regular tuition fees). Something should change, the EE system or atleast honour the old system(the old system just needed a job offer).

In the past, students were given even more of a bonus. People who are better qualified are unable to get work permits, yet students get an instant automatic work permit that's not tied to any employer. They get this even if their degree is useless to Canada, and their field is oversaturated.

As for the tuition being higher, that's because it's not subsidized by the taxpayers. You pay for an education, and you get ... an education. A good one.

I really cant disagree on this statement "Given Canada's economic priorities, they should really limit or eliminate the PGWP program". This makes more sense to me

I suggested eliminating after a year. That gives time to get CEC qualification and look for a LMIA. If a student is able to find a job where they are necessary (instead of taking a job from a Canadian), then it's simpler and easier to let them stay. If they can't, then they have a year to get their affairs in order and prepare for the move.

 

[kateg]

LMIA is a 15 page document with all personal details that needs to be completed by an employer. How many employers in Canada are willing to fill out that document?,the max that you can expect from an employer is a permannet job offer and nothin more. They rather hire a local candidate to save the trouble. This might help a canadian born, who might not be actually qualified (tht is actual purpose of this system), but kills the purpose of bringing international students to Canada

I found one. It took me less than a week. I am /extremely/ qualified, and they have been trying to hire more employees with my skillset since last May. They are still looking.

They have advertised for months and months, they have interviewed over a hundred people. They have hired any Canadians that were qualified, and I'm still the only one who can meet some of their needs.

This is what Canada is looking for - qualified, well-paid people who do not take jobs from Canadians. If there was any way my employer could hire a Canadian, he would, because a LMIA is expensive, slow, and difficult.

That's the point - if an employer is willing to do a LMIA and pay market wages, than the employee is necessary. As you said, many employers will hire a local instead. That means that they don't /need/ the foreigner, and the government of Canada wants them to hire the local, and if they aren't qualified, to train them.

You see it as a flaw. It's the entire purpose. They no longer want foreigners taking jobs from Canadians. If your employer isn't that desperate, if there is any possibility of hiring a Canadian instead, they want the Canadian hired and the immigrant going home.

 

[Dennia]

"so the whole express entry is flawed as it puts experienced people with young INTERNATIONAL graduates in the same pool" This statement is 100% true.

Also getting an LMIA from an employer doesnt restrict the employee to stay and work with the same employers even for a short span of time. Example : A candidate can get an LMIA from an employer(pays 35CAD/HR) who goes through all the trouble of bringing the employee to Canada. After coming to Canada with a PR the candidate can screw the employer and move on another employer who is willing pay more (or) even decide to go on unemployment benefits (ther are ways people do tht).

Who is finally the loser, its the employer who learnt a lesson(words spread so fast in Canadian communities,eventually they will treat International Grads the same way) ,Canada's economy(wasting all its tax money and unfourtunately international students

 

[kateg]

The only way to avoid that kind of abuse is to not grant permanent residence at all, and Canada doesn't want people with essential skills leaving after a couple years.

The Charter protects freedom of work and mobility for P/Rs. Being forced to work for someone is slavery.

 

[mead]

"so the whole express entry is flawed as it puts experienced people with young INTERNATIONAL graduates in the same pool" This statement is 100% true.

Also getting an LMIA from an employer doesnt restrict the employee to stay and work with the same employers even for a short span of time. Example : A candidate can get an LMIA from an employer(pays 35CAD/HR) who goes through all the trouble of bringing the employee to Canada. After coming to Canada with a PR the candidate can screw the employer and move on another employer who is willing pay more (or) even decide to go on unemployment benefits (ther are ways people do tht).

Who is finally the loser, its the employer who learnt a lesson(words spread so fast in Canadian communities,eventually they will treat International Grads the same way) ,Canada's economy(wasting all its tax money and unfourtunately international students

oh and there is another scenario company gives LMIA employee comes to canada and company finds out he is worthless as he has faked his experience now the company fires him. Now the employee becomes a burden on the conadian system . as opposed to an international student who has got a job and is working for a year or more successfully who is well accustomed with canadian customs.

 

[Dennia]

Your are taking about one employer and only one, who's only looking fr an extremely qualified candidate? Are all Canadian employers doing the same?,that is a question to be asked. I am talking about HR's who are trying to fill out positions ASAP after interviewing certain candidates(Do u always get the best? Are International Grads qualified?,even if they are qualified is CIC making their process simpler for the economic contribution they already made,that is debatable).

Yes, you are right again about good education in Canada,but pls look into depth,How r they able to provide this high level of education? College get certain funds frm the Govt. but that fund alone cannot provide you the best infrastructure you have in Canadian colleges and universities. International student fees plays a huge role in candaian colleges infrastructure. If CIC stops issuing students study permits or PGWP, then you will obviously see a complete changein the standards offered (Main reason why Canada was inviting student in the 90's).

One more curve ball to you to prove my statement about Canadian education standards (Our Canadian Govt. manages schooling entirely in Canada, rsityR they offering the best education, with the best qualified teachers? This is really debatable,because in many asian and european countries schooling cost a lot,but a student out of school can easily manage his 1st and 2nd semesters in any university,in any field. Is this the same in Canada? I have seen many college students having trouble coping with basic maths(calculus,algebra). I had the oppurtunity to tutor a few 8th and 9th grade students in Canada and also spoke to teachers,thats when I really learnt the reality (I cant blame the teachers on this, they are not paid enough to give the personal care for students)

I would really like to hear back from Kateg on my reply. Thank you

 

[Dennia]

Thankyou for backing me Mead. Faking ur experience is another huge concern(this can be easily done, all you need is have a good personality backed up with good communication skills during a skype interview with your employer). Many businesses in Canada are just built on trust, so when a candidate says something on his resume,it is very easy for a Canadian employee to trust you,because in my experience that is a Canadian general nature (max they will ask u is a copy of ur certificates(this can be easily faked) fr their records) . Only certain employees will go through a complete check, mostly they will checkout ur linkedin or facebook profiles to know more abt u.

 

[mead]

You see it as a flaw. It's the entire purpose. They no longer want foreigners taking jobs from Canadians. If your employer isn't that desperate, if there is any possibility of hiring a Canadian instead, they want the Canadian hired and the immigrant going home.

this is flawed thinking and not logical but advertised by the current government to get votes. conservative government is using express entry as a policy to get votes. canadian population is 30 mil (US population is 300 mil)roughly. fact is canada needs people . canadian employers need labor and that to qualified labor. if companies cant find right people for the job they will hire substandard labor. This will either hurt companies or companies will leave canada as they cant find labor. companies dont want difficult paper work to hire people. already there r so many regulations. I will give u an example. The job I was hired for was done by a canadian as company couldnt find the right talent with the right knowledge. The canadian was not educated and did not have right talent. company had a lot of trouble cause of this and they were looking for someone who would have right talent. let me also add the guy who they had was a citizen but he was also an immigrant at some point. So now they hired me. now think of a scenario where they dont find right talent they would have suffered and they wouldnt go to another country to find someone. so u see its not right move to make LMIA process so difficult. My company has already closed one office in canada and moved to US. Think how many canadians lost their job. we students earn money here is canada and spend it here for most part so we r not taking anyones jobs we r making jobs too. our company have sales all over the world and they moved to US after problems here in canada.

 

[Dennia]

Yes mead,you are right about the election (Oct 19th 2015). Its funny how politics can play a huge role with international student's destiny.

In my case funny thing is that I got a Transport Canada security clearance fr my profession (something not so easy fr a person without immigrant status),did two graduations in Canada, contributed almost 8 yrs for the Canadian economy, got a permanent job soon after graduation but still waitin fr an ITA. My employer is kind enough to help me with my PNP as I have status till 2017. I didnt want my employer to go through the ridiculous LMIA document.

 

[kateg]

Your are taking about one employer and only one, who's only looking fr an extremely qualified candidate? Are all Canadian employers doing the same?

Yes, I'm talking about employers who need qualified candidates but can't find them. There's a difference between "we'd like someone more qualified from overseas" and "we literally can't find a single Canadian who will work". The LMIA process is for the second group, not the first.

,that is a question to be asked. I am talking about HR's who are trying to fill out positions ASAP after interviewing certain candidates(Do u always get the best? Are International Grads qualified?,even if they are qualified is CIC making their process simpler for the economic contribution they already made,that is debatable).

Hiring a foreigner is supposed to be hard and laborious. It's not enough that you can't find a qualified Canadian in two weeks. The employer is supposed to need the employee.

Yes, you are right again about good education in Canada,but pls look into depth,How r they able to provide this high level of education? College get certain funds frm the Govt. but that fund alone cannot provide you the best infrastructure you have in Canadian colleges and universities. International student fees plays a huge role in candaian colleges infrastructure.

Yes. I'm aware. I pay international tuition myself. Part of the cost is that I will help fund other students. I also can't apply for a number of programs, as they have limited slots and those slots go to Canadians. Paying for a degree and earning my degree entitles me to a degree, nothing more.

If CIC stops issuing students study permits or PGWP, then you will obviously see a complete changein the standards offered (Main reason why Canada was inviting student in the 90's).

Some schools would reduce their educational standards, yes. In the United States, this is why many schools drop the number of in-state students and increase the number of out-of-state students. Out-of-state students pay higher tuition, which lets them bring in more money without increasing tuition. Schools in Canada charge for the privilege of an education here. It's a good education, and it's worth it.

I'm having a hard time understanding what you are trying to say here. Canadian schools are competitive, but neither the best nor the worst in the world. The school I'm at now is neither the best nor the worst I've attended. I'm here because I like it in Canada, and I wanted to get my degree here instead of overseas. Whether the schools are better here or better in the US, or better in Europe is not really relevant. I pay the price of being a student because I think the education is worth it.

I have seen many college students having trouble coping with basic maths(calculus,algebra).

As have I, particularly from the international students. In my experience at the school I attend, the international students are more likely to struggle academically and linguistically, particularly from countries that don't place as large an emphasis on teaching English in schools. It's hard enough being a student - when culture shock and language shock get involved, it's even more difficult. Someone coming from an English Commonwealth nation is going to see much fewer changes.

One issue with teaching is that there is a finite amount of money allocated for education. You can have better paid teachers, or you can have more teachers. You can have tuition be more expensive, with fewer students getting better educated, or you can have more affordable schools but fewer students. Alternatively, the government can make it back in tax revenue.

None of this means that international students should get a front-of-the-line pass for immigration.

 

[kateg]

In my case funny thing is that I got a Transport Canada security clearance fr my profession (something not so easy fr a person without immigrant status),did two graduations in Canada, contributed almost 8 yrs for the Canadian economy, got a permanent job soon after graduation but still waitin fr an ITA. My employer is kind enough to help me with my PNP as I have status till 2017. I didnt want my employer to go through the ridiculous LMIA document.

That's much of what the PNP program is for. The federal government has their policies and the type of immigrants they want. The province may have different goals, and they are free to choose who they want. They are free to value people who are here more than people elsewhere, and PNP permits them to make their own decisions without undermining the federal goals.