Expired PR, entered canada thru USA border - officers applied section 44 Residency Obligation & Removal Order . what next?

[jakklondon]

New PRs didn’t have the option to pay taxes. Many international students have spent more time than this child in Canada and the whole family had not even come close to ever meeting their RO. They should also pay international tuition. People in Canada pay high taxes for benefits like lowered tuition compared to international students.

Regardless of having or not having an option, neither new nor returning PRs paid taxes. Yet, you don't have anything against new PRs (or so it seems), but are against returning PRs.

I also would like to add the following:

An adult PR (or his parents) who left Canada for years had paid all the dues (application fees, landing fees, often attorney fees, then paying for cost of travel to Canada, cost of temporarily staying in Canada before leaving it for good, often grand-totaling in thousands or tens of thousands of dollars), and these fees are never refunded or returned to those PRs. I will further assert that overwhelming majority of these PRs are not super wealthy oligarchs or sheikhs with yachts parked at Malta, who get PR as a luxurious opportunity to travel visa free to Canada when they please. No. Majority are middle class struggling families, many coming from relatively poor countries in South East Asia, who sell their properties at home and bring their life savings to Canada, in hopes of having a better future. Imagine, how they must feel fooled and disillusioned to make a 180 degree U-Turn and return back to where they came from, having discovered no better (and often worse) opportunities in Canada than they had back home. Who will ever compensate them for the losses incurred? So, I say once again, good for this kid that he got in-state tuition in Canada. Let now Canadian tax-payers pay him back at least a fraction of what his entire family is owed for being lured to a place that had no jobs/opportunities, but was shoving and cramping hundreds of thousands of desperate PRs together, artificially creating over-saturation of the labor market , with PHDs and Doctors competing with each other in taxi driving and food delivering businesses.

I will also note that PR who doesn't have better opportunities in Canada but stays in Canada (because one is forced to stay or risk being in breach of RO and subsequent loss of PR status) is more likely to be the one who heavily utilizes Canadian tax-payer funded welfare (including the food and housing subsidies). As such, a PR (and the PR family) that timely left Canada and stayed out of Canada for years are the ones who saved Canadian tax-payers a whole lot of money by not utilizing the benefits they were entitled to as PRs. Yet, you look down at them and express strong disapproval for their return and use of in-state tuition, while you never protest ill-thought policies that bring hundreds of thousands more PRs into Canada every year, who never paid a dime in taxes and will potentially end up using a welfare if they can't get professional , well paying jobs and are forced to stay.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion and any position you wish to hold, but I must note that it lacks the plausibility and consistency. It's simply self-contradictory.

 

[canuck78]

Regardless of having or not having an option, neither new nor returning PRs paid taxes. Yet, you don't have anything against new PRs (or so it seems), but are against returning PRs.

I also would like to add the following:

An adult PR (or his parents) who left Canada for years had paid all the dues (application fees, landing fees, often attorney fees, then paying for cost of travel to Canada, cost of temporarily staying in Canada before leaving it for good, often grand-totaling in thousands or tens of thousands of dollars), and these fees are never refunded or returned to those PRs. I will further assert that overwhelming majority of these PRs are not super wealthy oligarchs or sheikhs with yachts parked at Malta, who get PR as a luxurious opportunity to travel visa free to Canada when they please. No. Majority are middle class struggling families, many coming from relatively poor countries in South East Asia, who sell their properties at home and bring their life savings to Canada, in hopes of having a better future. Imagine, how they must feel fooled and disillusioned to make a 180 degree U-Turn and return back to where they came from, having discovered no better (and often worse) opportunities in Canada than they had back home. Who will ever compensate them for the losses incurred? So, I say once again, good for this kid that he got in-state tuition in Canada. Let now Canadian tax-payers pay him back at least a fraction of what his entire family is owed for being lured to a place that had no jobs/opportunities, but was shoving and cramping hundreds of thousands of desperate PRs together, artificially creating over-saturation of the labor market , with PHDs and Doctors competing with each other in taxi driving and food delivering businesses.

I will also note that PR who doesn't have better opportunities in Canada but stays in Canada (because one is forced to stay or risk being in breach of RO and subsequent loss of PR status) is more likely to be the one who heavily utilizes Canadian tax-payer funded welfare (including the food and housing subsidies). As such, a PR (and the PR family) that timely left Canada and stayed out of Canada for years are the ones who saved Canadian tax-payers a whole lot of money by not utilizing the benefits they were entitled to as PRs. Yet, you look down at them and express strong disapproval for their return and use of in-state tuition, while you never protest ill-thought policies that bring hundreds of thousands more PRs into Canada every year, who never paid a dime in taxes and will potentially end up using a welfare if they can't get professional , well paying jobs and are forced to stay.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion and any position you wish to hold, but I must note that it lacks the plausibility and consistency. It's simply self-contradictory.

Nobody is luring anybody to Canada. People are free to make their own decisions. A family who has remained in Canada for 10 days has not attempted to live in Canada. If Canada was such an awful place why would this family be returning after 15 years?

 

[jakklondon]

Nobody is luring anybody to Canada.

What do you think all those advertisements are about? Listing Canada as No. 1 country in the world for quality of life and what not. You think those advertisement pieces don't lure people in? Even I, residing in the US, was fooled and lured by prospect of living in Canada. That is, until I landed and found out that Canada had one of the most depressed labor markers in the world. with immigrant doctors and engineers competing with each other in taxi and food delivery business.

People are free to make their own decisions.

Nobody said people were coerced to immigrate to Canada, But they are certainly coerced to stay in Canada, or else they loose PR status for non-compliance with RO.

A family who has remained in Canada for 10 days has not attempted to live in Canada.

Please don't keep changing the subject. I know you like to do that, so you never have to address, explain or argue in support of your original position. But I am unwilling to go in infinite circles. You said something about not paying taxes and getting the benefits, such as in-state tuition. I countered your argument by stating that newly admitted PRs also never paid taxes, yet are entitled to all the benefits. But I never heard you protesting it.
And may be, if you really want PRs to stay in Canada, you should first make sure that they are needed in Canada and there are jobs to keep them gainfully employed.

If Canada was such an awful place why would this family be returning after 15 years?

I love Canada, especially Canadians, Who said it's an "awful place"? It's probably much better place to be than the US. Alas, this has nothing to do with the fact that it has oversaturated labor market and 400,000 PRs shoved into it from all the world are doomed to work as rickshaws on the street, or collect welfare, unless they are ready to give up the PR and return to where they have come from. Please don't change the subject and don't suggest that I said things that I didn't.

With all due respect,

Canadian landed PR.

 

[Antares923yt]

Hi ,
I did Landing in 2004 , stayed in Canada for 10days and got the PR & SIN cards for myself, wife , elder son (PR only) , younger son is child (no PR) born post 2009. Our PR cards were expired in 2009 for all family members

Background
1.Elder son – 18yrs, entered Canada thru USA border , got university admission & finally got the PR renewed for 5 years
2.Wife – She is CA qualified accountant, entered Canada thru USA border (One year after elder son entered Canada), got section 44 (Residency Obligation & Removal Order) hence filed appeal within 30 days
3.Myself & younger son are based in home country, waiting for my wife’s renewal of PR (?)

My queries
Since we have filed appeal (IAD IRB) . What are the probabilities of appeal decision (in my scenario one son having PR renewed & studies in Canada and another son (child) is not with her) , how long it may take ?
My wife having SIN card (Not starting with “9” series & no expiry date written ) , since it is never used so not sure if this is dormant . Can she work on this card?
Appreciate expert views , opinions, suggestion & way forward from you experts

Excuse me, in which year and in which Province did your elder son cross the border? I am 19 years old and I am thinking about doing the same

 

[NR-2020]

Thank you for your responses , valuable time and efforts.
More details of not opting to move to Canada to retain PR
1. My mother and sisters were with my uncle , then my uncle was expired (during PR active tenure) and i had to sponsor & take care of my mother n sister. Sister got married in and mother being taken care by my family friend cum relatives
2. My mother in law was critically sick, hence I had to sponsor her and take care of her health. Now she is being taken care of family friend cum relative
3. My wife , (qualified CA from india, vast working experience at snr management level in big multinational companies.
2018 onwards , she tried for her new PR process (Express entry/PND), completed WES certification, IELTS but she was little short of points (i guess 62points)
5. Recently came to know about revival process and hired Lawyer to managed to cross my elder son to Canada and successfully got the PR card renewed

note, my wife along with my younger son tried to enter canada thru US border and had long interviews (10hours) & explained above with evidences. Finally , my your son was not allowed n wife was allowed but got section 44. It seems our case is not strong to revive the existing PR but exploring the possible option . Appreciate your valuable input

My queries:
1.wrt SIN Service canada offices some said it is valid for life and some not sure , so asked to check with Lawyer. We don't want benefit but need only for employment. will there any constraints?
2. If my wife is allowed to work atleast a year & attempt to complete canada CPA qualification, what are the chances for new PR thru express entry/PNP ?
3. Pls suggest good experienced lawyer (based in Ontario, Toronto / vicinity) having experience in such cases who can provide holistic view & solution to get PR for wife and subsequent sponsor my younger son & myself ? and any idea how much would be their fees (rough estimate)?

Hi . May I request your expertise/'comments on above points

 

[armoured]

1.wrt SIN Service canada offices some said it is valid for life and some not sure , so asked to check with Lawyer. We don't want benefit but need only for employment. will there any constraints?
2. If my wife is allowed to work atleast a year & attempt to complete canada CPA qualification, what are the chances for new PR thru express entry/PNP ?
3. Pls suggest good experienced lawyer (based in Ontario, Toronto / vicinity) having experience in such cases who can provide holistic view & solution to get PR for wife and subsequent sponsor my younger son & myself ? and any idea how much would be their fees (rough estimate)?

1. The SIN is valid for life (at least those issued to PRs and citizens are) but if no activity can be put in 'dormant' status. It is still a valid SIN but online access may be impossible and no access to benefits. It is NOT clear how actively or whether CRA contacts employers to say there is a problem with the SIN number - or what force that contact would have. (Removing the dormant status flag seems to require showing docs like PR card).
3. The firm that sponsors this site is considered reputable. You could start with them. No idea on fees - which will depend what exactly what you want.

 

[Copingwithlife]

1. The SIN is valid for life (at least those issued to PRs and citizens are) but if no activity can be put in 'dormant' status. It is still a valid SIN but online access may be impossible and no access to benefits. It is NOT clear how actively or whether CRA contacts employers to say there is a problem with the SIN number - or what force that contact would have. (Removing the dormant status flag seems to require showing docs like PR card).
3. The firm that sponsors this site is considered reputable. You could start with them. No idea on fees - which will depend what exactly what you want.

If there is a issue with a SIN, it’s flagged and sent to a department in T1 mismatch Processing. A letter is sent out to the business who is asked to contact that department. Could be a number of issues . Multiple uses of a SIN, it’s been flagged internally, fraud .There’s a department that looks into it. ESDC, CRA, IRCC .

 

[canuck78]

What do you think all those advertisements are about? Listing Canada as No. 1 country in the world for quality of life and what not. You think those advertisement pieces don't lure people in? Even I, residing in the US, was fooled and lured by prospect of living in Canada. That is, until I landed and found out that Canada had one of the most depressed labor markers in the world. with immigrant doctors and engineers competing with each other in taxi and food delivery business.



Nobody said people were coerced to immigrate to Canada, But they are certainly coerced to stay in Canada, or else they loose PR status for non-compliance with RO.



Please don't keep changing the subject. I know you like to do that, so you never have to address, explain or argue in support of your original position. But I am unwilling to go in infinite circles. You said something about not paying taxes and getting the benefits, such as in-state tuition. I countered your argument by stating that newly admitted PRs also never paid taxes, yet are entitled to all the benefits. But I never heard you protesting it.
And may be, if you really want PRs to stay in Canada, you should first make sure that they are needed in Canada and there are jobs to keep them gainfully employed.



I love Canada, especially Canadians, Who said it's an "awful place"? It's probably much better place to be than the US. Alas, this has nothing to do with the fact that it has oversaturated labor market and 400,000 PRs shoved into it from all the world are doomed to work as rickshaws on the street, or collect welfare, unless they are ready to give up the PR and return to where they have come from. Please don't change the subject and don't suggest that I said things that I didn't.

With all due respect,

Canadian landed PR.

In the age of the Internet anyone is able to do their own research to see what is needed for relicensing. You can’t blame Canada for an IMG doing no research on relicensing. The information about how difficult it will be to get relicensed and what residencies are likely to remain available after Canadian students match is available online. Would add that IMGs are not driving taxis unless they want to. There are even programs that try to help IMGs find other career paths. Would add that many new immigrants are unwilling to move to many smaller communities where they may find better job opportunities. Not sure why you are so obsessed with Canada when you don’t live here and have never made Canada your longterm home.

 

[armoured]

If there is a issue with a SIN, it’s flagged and sent to a department in T1 mismatch Processing. A letter is sent out to the business who is asked to contact that department. Could be a number of issues . Multiple uses of a SIN, it’s been flagged internally, fraud .There’s a department that looks into it. ESDC, CRA, IRCC .

The question then being, what happens when employer is asked to check, and they provide ID of the person who matches the SIN record? Dormancy doesn't make the SIN invalid.

 

[canuck78]

The question then being, what happens when employer is asked to check, and they provide ID of the person who matches the SIN record? Dormancy doesn't make the SIN invalid.

Doesn’t make it invalid but if the employer is contacted because SIN# is dormant the instructions are usually for the employer to contact Service Canada. It’s unclear what will happen if the individual is unable to present a valid PR card. Will they need to get a lawyer involved to get your SIN# activated without a valid PR card.

 

[jakklondon]

In the age of the Internet anyone is able to do their own research to see what is needed for relicensing. You can’t blame Canada for an IMG doing no research on relicensing.

It's not just about IMGs, I reference the doctors and engineers as proverbial examples. We know too well how many MBAs and other professionals who don't need license to work in their field end up in warehouses or behind taxi wheels, because they lack "Canadian experience". We already covered this subject before.
I wouldn't blame Canada for anything unfairly. What I blame it for is misleading claim it posts on internet (yes, in the age of internet when everyone can easily read it), claiming that it has tremendous shortage of hundreds of thousands of skilled immigrants. It's this false claim of shortage in labor market (which turns out to be oversaturation of labor market instead) which I have an issue with. It results in hundreds of thousands of more PRs streaming into Canada, believing that there is scarcity in labor market and dire need for their skills, only to find out that they are not good for anything better than moving pallets in the warehouse or driving an Uber in Toronto.

The information about how difficult it will be to get relicensed and what residencies are likely to remain available after Canadian students match is available online. Would add that IMGs are not driving taxis unless they want to. There are even programs that try to help IMGs find other career paths.

See above.

Would add that many new immigrants are unwilling to move to many smaller communities where they may find better job opportunities.

Not sure about that. Are there skilled jobs in small towns? I personally was born and raised in a large capital city and lived most of my youth and early adulthood in cities, and I don't like cities after all. I love small towns, I like places where people know each other, say "Hi!" to each other each morning, treat each other with love and respect and leave their doors open overnight, with no apprehension of theft , assault and robbery. I would definitely love to live in a small community, if there were jobs in my field , adequately paying for what I do. I think a lot of immigrants would feel the same way, many of them are from middle class families, raising kids and looking for safe, friendly communities where they can live peacefully.

Not sure why you are so obsessed with Canada when you don’t live here and have never made Canada your longterm home.

Why it bothers you? I believe we all must stand up for what is right, anywhere and everywhere, because the more we cede ground and become complacent the worse things get, all over the world. I will always and everywhere stand for what I believe in, for improvement of human life, for our common freedoms , freedom from oppression and tyranny. I will keep doing this as long as there is a breath in my lung and as long as my heart beats.
if you stand for opposite side/values, that's your choice. I won't change your position and stance, neither you will influence and change mine.

 

[IndianBos]

It's not just about IMGs, I reference the doctors and engineers as proverbial examples. We know too well how many MBAs and other professionals who don't need license to work in their field end up in warehouses or behind taxi wheels, because they lack "Canadian experience". We already covered this subject before.
I wouldn't blame Canada for anything unfairly. What I blame it for is misleading claim it posts on internet (yes, in the age of internet when everyone can easily read it), claiming that it has tremendous shortage of hundreds of thousands of skilled immigrants. It's this false claim of shortage in labor market (which turns out to be oversaturation of labor market instead) which I have an issue with. It results in hundreds of thousands of more PRs streaming into Canada, believing that there is scarcity in labor market and dire need for their skills, only to find out that they are not good for anything better than moving pallets in the warehouse or driving an Uber in Toronto.



See above.



Not sure about that. Are there skilled jobs in small towns? I personally was born and raised in a large capital city and lived most of my youth and early adulthood in cities, and I don't like cities after all. I love small towns, I like places where people know each other, say "Hi!" to each other each morning, treat each other with love and respect and leave their doors open overnight, with no apprehension of theft , assault and robbery. I would definitely love to live in a small community, if there were jobs in my field , adequately paying for what I do. I think a lot of immigrants would feel the same way, many of them are from middle class families, raising kids and looking for safe, friendly communities where they can live peacefully.



Why it bothers you? I believe we all must stand up for what is right, anywhere and everywhere, because the more we cede ground and become complacent the worse things get, all over the world. I will always and everywhere stand for what I believe in, for improvement of human life, for our common freedoms , freedom from oppression and tyranny. I will keep doing this as long as there is a breath in my lung and as long as my heart beats.
if you stand for opposite side/values, that's your choice. I won't change your position and stance, neither you will influence and change mine.

He is not obsessed with Canada, he is just pissed off. Hate is a much stronger emotion.

He wanted to make Canada his home but couldn't, and had bad experience at the border. Obviously, he is well within his rights to provide his viewpoint, but anyone reading through a few topics will easily be able to figure out how his viewpoints are being shaped.

 

[canuck78]

It's not just about IMGs, I reference the doctors and engineers as proverbial examples. We know too well how many MBAs and other professionals who don't need license to work in their field end up in warehouses or behind taxi wheels, because they lack "Canadian experience". We already covered this subject before.
I wouldn't blame Canada for anything unfairly. What I blame it for is misleading claim it posts on internet (yes, in the age of internet when everyone can easily read it), claiming that it has tremendous shortage of hundreds of thousands of skilled immigrants. It's this false claim of shortage in labor market (which turns out to be oversaturation of labor market instead) which I have an issue with. It results in hundreds of thousands of more PRs streaming into Canada, believing that there is scarcity in labor market and dire need for their skills, only to find out that they are not good for anything better than moving pallets in the warehouse or driving an Uber in Toronto.



See above.



Not sure about that. Are there skilled jobs in small towns? I personally was born and raised in a large capital city and lived most of my youth and early adulthood in cities, and I don't like cities after all. I love small towns, I like places where people know each other, say "Hi!" to each other each morning, treat each other with love and respect and leave their doors open overnight, with no apprehension of theft , assault and robbery. I would definitely love to live in a small community, if there were jobs in my field , adequately paying for what I do. I think a lot of immigrants would feel the same way, many of them are from middle class families, raising kids and looking for safe, friendly communities where they can live peacefully.



Why it bothers you? I believe we all must stand up for what is right, anywhere and everywhere, because the more we cede ground and become complacent the worse things get, all over the world. I will always and everywhere stand for what I believe in, for improvement of human life, for our common freedoms , freedom from oppression and tyranny. I will keep doing this as long as there is a breath in my lung and as long as my heart beats.
if you stand for opposite side/values, that's your choice. I won't change your position and stance, neither you will influence and change mine.

You seem to be stuck in the 90s and early 2000s. There are plenty of professionals working in their industries once they arrive in Canada. If not, nobody would remain in Canada. Certainly there is room for improvement but that criticism could be made of any country where there are foreign workers. The criticism can be made for foreign workers in their home countries as well. There are also plenty of foreign trained professionals whose degrees do not meet the standards necessary. There are certainly very competent professionals but also many who have paid for degrees, gone to substandard schools, etc. There does need to be some form of recertification. Most immigrants will be the first to admit that many have obtained degrees without much assessment and then there are those who have gone to well respected well known institutions. You have minimal experience in Canada so I’m not sure how you feel like you know about the experience of most immigrants. There are plenty of professional jobs outside Toronto, Vancouver or Montreal but many are unwilling to consider other cities. I disagree that many would consider other communities. We see it daily on this forum. Many are unwilling to even live in an area of a city where there is already a large community from their home country. Brampton,Richmond, Surrey are perfect examples of where there is a lack of diversity. There is a dominant population that attracts more people from the same home country. The good part of Canada is integration of various cultures and communities. Many don’t even have to learn English or French and essentially live a life very similar to their home country but in Canada. This is especially damaging for young women who aren’t educated, don’t know English, do not work outside the home, etc.

 

[jakklondon]

You seem to be stuck in the 90s and early 2000s. There are plenty of professionals working in their industries once they arrive in Canada. If not, nobody would remain in Canada. Certainly there is room for improvement but that criticism could be made of any country where there are foreign workers. The criticism can be made for foreign workers in their home countries as well. There are also plenty of foreign trained professionals whose degrees do not meet the standards necessary. There are certainly very competent professionals but also many who have paid for degrees, gone to substandard schools, etc. There does need to be some form of recertification. Most immigrants will be the first to admit that many have obtained degrees without much assessment and then there are those who have gone to well respected well known institutions. You have minimal experience in Canada so I’m not sure how you feel like you know about the experience of most immigrants.

I addressed all your rebuttals so many times, with links to multiple publications in Canadian mainstream media as well as scholarly publications where the issue of requiring "Canadian experience" is debated over and over, with MBA's and highly skilled professionals (formerly working in France, Germany and US), coming to Canada and working as bus boys or warehouse forklift operators..... You either don't read my responses and just copy-paste some canned texts from your playbook, or you read and understand everything well , but have an agenda and will deny the sky is blue if that fits your purpose. Either way, you are well within your rights to do so, I just think it's pointless to have a discussion if you will deny the obvious and ignore the facts and arguments that were brought to your attention over and over again.

There are plenty of professional jobs outside Toronto, Vancouver or Montreal but many are unwilling to consider other cities. I disagree that many would consider other communities. We see it daily on this forum. Many are unwilling to even live in an area of a city where there is already a large community from their home country. Brampton,Richmond, Surrey are perfect examples of where there is a lack of diversity. There is a dominant population that attracts more people from the same home country. The good part of Canada is integration of various cultures and communities. Many don’t even have to learn English or French and essentially live a life very similar to their home country but in Canada. This is especially damaging for young women who aren’t educated, don’t know English, do not work outside the home, etc.

Diversity and integration is a whole different subject that I didn't touch and had no intention to discuss.

Here is what I have an issue with:

Canadian skilled PRs were qualified for permanent residence by Canadian government (with the rights and privileges almost mirroring those of Can. citizens) , and their qualification was based on Canada's alleged need to employ them due to scarcity of such skilled workers in Canadian labor market (which is hugely misleading, if you consider the extreme length people get to land any job, which often turns out to be a survival job)

 

[armoured]

Nobody said people were coerced to immigrate to Canada, But they are certainly coerced to stay in Canada, or else they loose PR status for non-compliance with RO.

What an absurd framing - 'coerced to stay in Canada.'

It's all much more simple: spend 730 days in Canada every five years, retain your status. Do not reside in Canada - you risk losing PR status. Travel, do whatever you want - heck, if one is careful, you could not even pay taxes in Canada during those five year periods - no coercion whatsoever.

Or such an extreme exaggeration of the concept of coercion that it loses any sense whatsoever. "Tyranny in Canada - milk is sold in plastic bags!"