Email from CIC that PR card renewal needs secondary review

[sid2019]

Hello Friends,

Can anyone assist me with my RO case.

I became PR on Dec 07, 2014 and after few months (Mar 23, 2015) my employer asked me to move to the USA on L1 VISA (Intra-office transfer).
Our company headquarter is in Canada and it has offices all over the world. I`m currently in the US and working for Canadian business. When my employer prepared my USA visa application they provided supporting letter in which they established a link between Canadian employer and future US office employer. They proved that Canadian office is the parent office and US office is the child. They also defined my job tittle and description and specified that it is a TEMPORARY transfer and they put me on US payroll. I moved out of Canada with my family and relocated to US. I used to live on rental property and do not own any land or house in Canada. Since I left, I do not have any permanent address in Canada.

Before accepting this internal assignment, I inquired about Appendix A Residency Obligation (Situation 2. Employment outside Canada) which says
"You many count each day you worked outside Canada if:
As a term of your job or contract , you are assigned on a full-time basis to:
an affiliated enterprise outside Canada"

I fall under above definition and description provided on CIC website.

Few months back (June 26, 2019) I submitted my PR renewal application and provided all supporting documents (Employment supporting letter which proves the definition of Canadian business, its a full-time job, description of job tittle & position, temporary employment outside Canada, Corporate Annual report, copy of US employment letter, US Pay statement, I do not have any Canadian income but I do filed my Canadian taxes (attached NOA), active Canadian Bank account, RRSP plans, active professional license membership and active Canadian Credit Card statement).

A month ago, I was checking my file status online and it was not showing any progress, so I decided to contacted CIC and got following reply on (Aug 6, 2019).
"We have verified your file and noticed that it was referred to the local office for further assessment, causing a delay in the processing of your application."

Its been more than 10 weeks and I don`t know what to expect?

Summary: In last five years, I have physically spent approx 125 days in Canada and remaining time employment outside Canada. My current project assignment in US will end in Mar 2020. But before that my Canada PR will expire (Dec 6, 2019) , should I worry about my PR renewal application?
or should I ask my employer to sent me back to Canada?

Please advice.

 

[dpenabill]

Hello Friends,

Can anyone assist me with my RO case.

I became PR on Dec 07, 2014 and after few months (Mar 23, 2015) my employer asked me to move to the USA on L1 VISA (Intra-office transfer).
Our company headquarter is in Canada and it has offices all over the world. I`m currently in the US and working for Canadian business. When my employer prepared my USA visa application they provided supporting letter in which they established a link between Canadian employer and future US office employer. They proved that Canadian office is the parent office and US office is the child. They also defined my job tittle and description and specified that it is a TEMPORARY transfer and they put me on US payroll. I moved out of Canada with my family and relocated to US. I used to live on rental property and do not own any land or house in Canada. Since I left, I do not have any permanent address in Canada.

Before accepting this internal assignment, I inquired about Appendix A Residency Obligation (Situation 2. Employment outside Canada) which says
"You many count each day you worked outside Canada if:
As a term of your job or contract , you are assigned on a full-time basis to:
an affiliated enterprise outside Canada"

I fall under above definition and description provided on CIC website.

Few months back (June 26, 2019) I submitted my PR renewal application and provided all supporting documents (Employment supporting letter which proves the definition of Canadian business, its a full-time job, description of job tittle & position, temporary employment outside Canada, Corporate Annual report, copy of US employment letter, US Pay statement, I do not have any Canadian income but I do filed my Canadian taxes (attached NOA), active Canadian Bank account, RRSP plans, active professional license membership and active Canadian Credit Card statement).

A month ago, I was checking my file status online and it was not showing any progress, so I decided to contacted CIC and got following reply on (Aug 6, 2019).
"We have verified your file and noticed that it was referred to the local office for further assessment, causing a delay in the processing of your application."

Its been more than 10 weeks and I don`t know what to expect?

Summary: In last five years, I have physically spent approx 125 days in Canada and remaining time employment outside Canada. My current project assignment in US will end in Mar 2020. But before that my Canada PR will expire (Dec 6, 2019) , should I worry about my PR renewal application?
or should I ask my employer to sent me back to Canada?

Please advice.

I assume your PR card will expire in December. There is no "expiration" of Canadian PR.

In the meantime, however, it appears your application for a new PR card has triggered a formal PR Residency Obligation inquiry, which is PROBABLY what the referral to the local office is about.

This is NOT a referral for Secondary Review. Contrary to a common misunderstanding too oft repeated in this forum, if IRCC has reason to question a PR's compliance with the RO, when a PR card application is made, that typically results in a referral to a local office to conduct the inquiry into RO compliance and NOT a referral to Secondary Review. The importance of this is that the local office process tends to proceed significantly faster than SR and, more importantly, can lead to the issuance of a 44(1) Report and Removal Order terminating PR status (subject to PR's right of appeal).

The fact that you are currently abroad complicates things some. Otherwise, if you were in Canada, the next thing likely to happen is that the local office sends you a request for information and documents regarding your compliance with the PR RO. Or the local office schedules an INTERVIEW. Or both.

Obviously, how you will fare depends in large part on whether you are actually entitled to and are allowed credit toward compliance with the RO based on subsection 28(2)(iii) IRPA (see https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/I-2.5/page-7.html#h-274598 ), oft referred to as credit for time abroad while employed by a Canadian business.

Just the fact that there has been a referral to the local office does NOT necessarily indicate IRCC disagrees with allowing you the credit. The local office might merely review the facts and determine you meet the requirements to be allowed this credit and send the file back to the CPC, so that the CPC can issue a new PR card . . . which might in turn still be sent to the local office again for delivery in person during a counter-interview. (CPC might also deliver the card by mail . . . but . . . well that is another tangent.)

BUT IRCC might not agree your circumstances support being allowed the employed-abroad-by-a-Canadian-business credit, or at least the local office may question your qualification for the credit.

Actually qualifying for this credit tends to be far more complicated than many if not most PRs apprehend. The criteria are typically STRICTLY applied. So strictly I have often remarked that anyone who actually needs the credit, to be in compliance with the RO, quite likely does NOT qualify for the credit (this is an exaggeration, but not by a whole lot).

You apparently are already familiar with a key element, that the assignment be a TEMPORARY assignment. Many permanent jobs do not last three or four years. For a job that lasts that long, labeling it "temporary" might not be enough for IRCC to conclude it was a temporary assignment. Could DEPEND on the details.

That is just one potential complication.

What constitutes an "assignment" can be tricky.

What constitutes a "Canadian business" is often another rather tricky element for the employment abroad to qualify for the employed-abroad-by-a-Canadian-business credit.

There are many topics here in which these matters are further discussed, including some doing a deep-dive into some of the pitfalls, complications, and nuances.

How this will actually unfold is difficult to forecast. These can be tricky cases. If IRCC concludes you are not entitled to the credit, you can still make the H&C case that the reason you remained abroad was a good faith reliance on the credit, so you should be allowed to keep PR status.

The particular details in such cases can be so tricky NO ONE here can offer much help in sorting out how to navigate this going forward. Depending on how confident you are that you should be entitled to the employed-abroad-by-a-Canadian-business credit (after reviewing some of the other discussions about this and reconsidering your situation), you may want to see a Canadian immigration lawyer. That said, you can wait to see what the local office does next before deciding how to proceed.

In the meantime, no need to worry that your PR will expire. The issue is whether or not IRCC will make a decision denying the credit and terminating your status. If that happens you have a right of appeal. Depending on the particular details, the H&C case based on reasonable reliance on the credit may be enough to win an appeal even if the credit itself is not allowed. (Obviously, whether the reliance on the credit is reasonable is a question which also depends on the facts, and your personal relationship to the business looms large in that equation.)

 

[farda]

Hello Friends,

Can anyone assist me with my RO case.

I became PR on Dec 07, 2014 and after few months (Mar 23, 2015) my employer asked me to move to the USA on L1 VISA (Intra-office transfer).
Our company headquarter is in Canada and it has offices all over the world. I`m currently in the US and working for Canadian business. When my employer prepared my USA visa application they provided supporting letter in which they established a link between Canadian employer and future US office employer. They proved that Canadian office is the parent office and US office is the child. They also defined my job tittle and description and specified that it is a TEMPORARY transfer and they put me on US payroll. I moved out of Canada with my family and relocated to US. I used to live on rental property and do not own any land or house in Canada. Since I left, I do not have any permanent address in Canada.

Before accepting this internal assignment, I inquired about Appendix A Residency Obligation (Situation 2. Employment outside Canada) which says
"You many count each day you worked outside Canada if:
As a term of your job or contract , you are assigned on a full-time basis to:
an affiliated enterprise outside Canada"

I fall under above definition and description provided on CIC website.

Few months back (June 26, 2019) I submitted my PR renewal application and provided all supporting documents (Employment supporting letter which proves the definition of Canadian business, its a full-time job, description of job tittle & position, temporary employment outside Canada, Corporate Annual report, copy of US employment letter, US Pay statement, I do not have any Canadian income but I do filed my Canadian taxes (attached NOA), active Canadian Bank account, RRSP plans, active professional license membership and active Canadian Credit Card statement).

A month ago, I was checking my file status online and it was not showing any progress, so I decided to contacted CIC and got following reply on (Aug 6, 2019).
"We have verified your file and noticed that it was referred to the local office for further assessment, causing a delay in the processing of your application."

Its been more than 10 weeks and I don`t know what to expect?

Summary: In last five years, I have physically spent approx 125 days in Canada and remaining time employment outside Canada. My current project assignment in US will end in Mar 2020. But before that my Canada PR will expire (Dec 6, 2019) , should I worry about my PR renewal application?
or should I ask my employer to sent me back to Canada?

Please advice.

Hi,

I have a question. What’s your current status on your ecas?Does it show in process?

 

[sid2019]

I assume your PR card will expire in December. There is no "expiration" of Canadian PR.

In the meantime, however, it appears your application for a new PR card has triggered a formal PR Residency Obligation inquiry, which is PROBABLY what the referral to the local office is about.

This is NOT a referral for Secondary Review. Contrary to a common misunderstanding too oft repeated in this forum, if IRCC has reason to question a PR's compliance with the RO, when a PR card application is made, that typically results in a referral to a local office to conduct the inquiry into RO compliance and NOT a referral to Secondary Review. The importance of this is that the local office process tends to proceed significantly faster than SR and, more importantly, can lead to the issuance of a 44(1) Report and Removal Order terminating PR status (subject to PR's right of appeal).

The fact that you are currently abroad complicates things some. Otherwise, if you were in Canada, the next thing likely to happen is that the local office sends you a request for information and documents regarding your compliance with the PR RO. Or the local office schedules an INTERVIEW. Or both.

Obviously, how you will fare depends in large part on whether you are actually entitled to and are allowed credit toward compliance with the RO based on subsection 28(2)(iii) IRPA (see https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/I-2.5/page-7.html#h-274598 ), oft referred to as credit for time abroad while employed by a Canadian business.

Just the fact that there has been a referral to the local office does NOT necessarily indicate IRCC disagrees with allowing you the credit. The local office might merely review the facts and determine you meet the requirements to be allowed this credit and send the file back to the CPC, so that the CPC can issue a new PR card . . . which might in turn still be sent to the local office again for delivery in person during a counter-interview. (CPC might also deliver the card by mail . . . but . . . well that is another tangent.)

BUT IRCC might not agree your circumstances support being allowed the employed-abroad-by-a-Canadian-business credit, or at least the local office may question your qualification for the credit.

Actually qualifying for this credit tends to be far more complicated than many if not most PRs apprehend. The criteria are typically STRICTLY applied. So strictly I have often remarked that anyone who actually needs the credit, to be in compliance with the RO, quite likely does NOT qualify for the credit (this is an exaggeration, but not by a whole lot).

You apparently are already familiar with a key element, that the assignment be a TEMPORARY assignment. Many permanent jobs do not last three or four years. For a job that lasts that long, labeling it "temporary" might not be enough for IRCC to conclude it was a temporary assignment. Could DEPEND on the details.

That is just one potential complication.

What constitutes an "assignment" can be tricky.

What constitutes a "Canadian business" is often another rather tricky element for the employment abroad to qualify for the employed-abroad-by-a-Canadian-business credit.

There are many topics here in which these matters are further discussed, including some doing a deep-dive into some of the pitfalls, complications, and nuances.

How this will actually unfold is difficult to forecast. These can be tricky cases. If IRCC concludes you are not entitled to the credit, you can still make the H&C case that the reason you remained abroad was a good faith reliance on the credit, so you should be allowed to keep PR status.

The particular details in such cases can be so tricky NO ONE here can offer much help in sorting out how to navigate this going forward. Depending on how confident you are that you should be entitled to the employed-abroad-by-a-Canadian-business credit (after reviewing some of the other discussions about this and reconsidering your situation), you may want to see a Canadian immigration lawyer. That said, you can wait to see what the local office does next before deciding how to proceed.

In the meantime, no need to worry that your PR will expire. The issue is whether or not IRCC will make a decision denying the credit and terminating your status. If that happens you have a right of appeal. Depending on the particular details, the H&C case based on reasonable reliance on the credit may be enough to win an appeal even if the credit itself is not allowed. (Obviously, whether the reliance on the credit is reasonable is a question which also depends on the facts, and your personal relationship to the business looms large in that equation.)

Thank you for your time and detailed response. I greatly appreciate.

Yes, your assumption was correct, my PR card will expire in December 2019 and I submitted an application for PR Card renewal in Jun 2019.

I know my situation is unique and complicated. I have enclosed all necessary documents (which can prove a definition of Canadian business, temporary assignment, my unique skill sets, job description, employment history) hoping these would assist reviewing officer to make a decision on my file. I also expect, if they need any explanation or additional supporting documents to prove my case will provide them.

Currently, I live and work close to US-Canada border and provided Canadian friend home address for correspondence purpose. In future, if they ask for additional documents or call me for personal interview then I have an advantage of visiting local office while PR card is ACTIVE.
I still have 90 days of valid PR card and hoping will hear something from either local or CPC office on my file.

Thank you for sharing other options, if IRCC decide to reject my application. I will explore those, if time comes.

Once again thank you for your time and reply.

 

[sid2019]

Hi,

I have a question. What’s your current status on your ecas?Does it show in process?

Yes, it shows "In Process".

 

[farda]

Yes, it shows "In Process".

Thanks.
Does any sentence relating to refer to local office is shown on Ecas?

 

[sid2019]

Thanks.
Does any sentence relating to refer to local office is shown on Ecas?

No, there are no details available on Ecas.
I used web form to find out whats the status of my PR card renewal application then I received a response from IRCC agent stating that "it was referred to the local office for further assessment, causing a delay in the processing of your application".

 

[Nassrat]

Thank you for your time and detailed response. I greatly appreciate.

Yes, your assumption was correct, my PR card will expire in December 2019 and I submitted an application for PR Card renewal in Jun 2019.

I know my situation is unique and complicated. I have enclosed all necessary documents (which can prove a definition of Canadian business, temporary assignment, my unique skill sets, job description, employment history) hoping these would assist reviewing officer to make a decision on my file. I also expect, if they need any explanation or additional supporting documents to prove my case will provide them.

Currently, I live and work close to US-Canada border and provided Canadian friend home address for correspondence purpose. In future, if they ask for additional documents or call me for personal interview then I have an advantage of visiting local office while PR card is ACTIVE.
I still have 90 days of valid PR card and hoping will hear something from either local or CPC office on my file.

Thank you for sharing other options, if IRCC decide to reject my application. I will explore those, if time comes.

Once again thank you for your time and reply.

Hello Side, I can relate to your situation because from what you wrote. It is almost my case. It is also the similar in timing. IRCC received my application on August 13th. I am also has the same ecas status "processing" some call center agents reports it is going to local office but no explanation where or what to do or when to expect to hear any info. Our cards are already expired. We are in country. I hope we keep update each other with any useful information.

 

[sid2019]

Hello Side, I can relate to your situation because from what you wrote. It is almost my case. It is also the similar in timing. IRCC received my application on August 13th. I am also has the same ecas status "processing" some call center agents reports it is going to local office but no explanation where or what to do or when to expect to hear any info. Our cards are already expired. We are in country. I hope we keep update each other with any useful information.

Thanks for connecting and sharing your story.
If your file refer to local office then it might take several months to process, there is no time limit defined.
You mentioned, your PR card expired and you are residing in Canada. If that is the case then would you able to travel outside Canada and comeback, while your file is under processing?
Did you inquire about such scenario(work related travel or family emergency)?

 

[Nassrat]

Thanks for connecting and sharing your story.
If your file refer to local office then it might take several months to process, there is no time limit defined.
You mentioned, your PR card expired and you are residing in Canada. If that is the case then would you able to travel outside Canada and comeback, while your file is under processing?
Did you inquire about such scenario(work related travel or family emergency)?

The recorded message you can leave but if you are asked for interview, you can't come back unless you request a document from the embassy which of course can't know when to get it. I hope people in this process can understand what does it mean to be stuck with family. You can't fulfill working for a Canadian organization nor start working here. I even don't know what I can or can't do with expired PR. Frankly I can't trust the customer support from IRCC because they don't give any estimation or clear information.

 

[sid2019]

The recorded message you can leave but if you are asked for interview, you can't come back unless you request a document from the embassy which of course can't know when to get it. I hope people in this process can understand what does it mean to be stuck with family. You can't fulfill working for a Canadian organization nor start working here. I even don't know what I can or can't do with expired PR. Frankly I can't trust the customer support from IRCC because they don't give any estimation or clear information.

I understand your frustration and very well aware that customer support gives you text book answer. These are not at all useful to us.
I still have three months of valid PR card and thinking may be I should ask my employer to transfer me back or I should find a new job and return back to Canada.
Can you work with expired PR Card? is it legal or illegal to work?

 

[dpenabill]

The fact a PR card is expired has NO effect on a PR's status. Remember: PR status does NOT expire.

So a Canadian PR in Canada does NOT need a PR card to work in Canada. Of course the individual needs a SIN to work, but that is something a PR should obtain soon after landing.


SOME CLARIFICATIONS:

There are some aspects in recently discussed situations above which are not clear. I am not sure the following are relevant, but in case they apply . . .

Referral to Local Office is NOT a referral for Secondary Review: These are different non-routine procedures. The focus of inquiries made is usually different. Processing timelines tend to be faster for local office referrals than SR. Correspondence from IRCC will ordinarily state which sort of referral it is. Some overlap in the focus of the inquiry may be common, and both can include a more probing, formal determination of compliance with the Residency Obligation, but they are different . . . for example, the local office processing is more likely to involve an interview or request for additional information and documentation to support RO compliance.

PRs Outside Canada: PRs who are outside Canada while they have a PR card application in process are particularly at risk for non-routine processing. They also have more risk of having to pick up a new PR card in person rather than it being mailed to their Canadian address.

Purpose of granting PR is so individual can settle and PERMANENTLY live in Canada: this is significant because it affects how IRCC interprets and applies the RO rules, and in that PRs should not expect IRCC to make it easy for PRs abroad to keep PR status, or for PRs to maintain ties abroad. Many PRs mistakenly rely on the lenient PR Residency Obligation in a way that is inconsistent with the purpose of PR (again, so the PR can PERMANENTLY live in Canada) and then run into problems with IRCC or CBSA.

 

[Harryhere101]

Sid or Nassarat, any update?

 

[Nassrat]

No update. The online status shows processing since 13 August 2019. The call center reports (with nothing shown online) that we are transferred to local office. They don't men

 

[Harryhere101]

No update. The online status shows processing since 13 August 2019. The call center reports (with nothing shown online) that we are transferred to local office. They don't men

Oh, I have also been transferred to local.
App recieved July 19 2019
Processing started same day
Asked for passport pages photocopies by CIC Sydney September 18 2019
Sent those by October 18 2018
Called agents yesterday and found out I have been transferred to local office.
This is so frustrating! I have travel plans for June 2020 but cant even start booking.