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Electronic police certificate with a digital signature for a Canadian citizenship application

canyon4

Newbie
Nov 1, 2018
4
0
Hello,

I am preparing documents to apply for Canadian citizenship. I need to submit a police certificate from another country. I currently have such a police certificate in an electronic form (a pdf document) with a digital signature (a separate file with a .sig extension) that certifies that it indeed comes from the appropriate authority. According to the laws of the country that issued that certificate, a digital version has the same validity/legitimacy as the paper one. Obtaining a paper version of the police certificate for me is complicated and expensive, and I am not going to do that.

Is it possible to submit this digitally signed police certificate in my Canadian citizenship application? Do they accept such a certificate?

The problem is that the application is mailed in the paper format. I can print the pdf file, but it seems that there is no easy way to print the digital signature so that it would be useful (because it signs the whole pdf file itself, not the text content that is printed; in theory, I can print the binary content of both files so that they can scan it and reconstruct the files on their end, but I really doubt that they are going to do that).

As an idea, I can include with my paper application a USB drive with electronic version of the police certificate saved there. But I am not sure if they accept that.

Does anyone have any knowledge/experience about submitting an electronic police certificate for the Canadian citizenship application?
 

iam_toby

VIP Member
Feb 4, 2013
7,506
353
Hello,

I am preparing documents to apply for Canadian citizenship. I need to submit a police certificate from another country. I currently have such a police certificate in an electronic form (a pdf document) with a digital signature (a separate file with a .sig extension) that certifies that it indeed comes from the appropriate authority. According to the laws of the country that issued that certificate, a digital version has the same validity/legitimacy as the paper one. Obtaining a paper version of the police certificate for me is complicated and expensive, and I am not going to do that.

Is it possible to submit this digitally signed police certificate in my Canadian citizenship application? Do they accept such a certificate?

The problem is that the application is mailed in the paper format. I can print the pdf file, but it seems that there is no easy way to print the digital signature so that it would be useful (because it signs the whole pdf file itself, not the text content that is printed; in theory, I can print the binary content of both files so that they can scan it and reconstruct the files on their end, but I really doubt that they are going to do that).

As an idea, I can include with my paper application a USB drive with electronic version of the police certificate saved there. But I am not sure if they accept that.

Does anyone have any knowledge/experience about submitting an electronic police certificate for the Canadian citizenship application?
I would highly suggest to obtain a paper copy and submit the original as every other applicant. I'm pretty sure that CIC won't accept any files on flash drives (for various reasons). And printed binary content is a no-go as well, IMHO.

If you can't, or don't want to apply for a paper version of the PCC I would suggest to talk to an Immigration Lawyer about your situation.
 

uncomfortable

Hero Member
May 11, 2017
234
96
I would highly suggest to obtain a paper copy and submit the original as every other applicant. I'm pretty sure that CIC won't accept any files on flash drives (for various reasons). And printed binary content is a no-go as well, IMHO.

If you can't, or don't want to apply for a paper version of the PCC I would suggest to talk to an Immigration Lawyer about your situation.
What if the country in question, recognizing that we are in freaking 2018, only issued certificates in this format? I will submit, explaining the situation. If everyone just does things "as they have always been done", nothing will ever change! I'm surprised some people are not still writing with stones on rocks.
 

iam_toby

VIP Member
Feb 4, 2013
7,506
353
What if the country in question, recognizing that we are in freaking 2018, only issued certificates in this format? I will submit, explaining the situation. If everyone just does things "as they have always been done", nothing will ever change! I'm surprised some people are not still writing with stones on rocks.
That's the beauty of public forums. You ask a question, and in response you get peoples opinions. :) Submit whatever you want.
If it was my application I would try to get a paper version and submit what is proven to work.
 

ZingyDNA

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What if the country in question, recognizing that we are in freaking 2018, only issued certificates in this format? I will submit, explaining the situation. If everyone just does things "as they have always been done", nothing will ever change! I'm surprised some people are not still writing with stones on rocks.
You're dealing with a government agency. None of your logic applies to them :p

You do whatever they ask you to do, or it won't be done.
 

Seym

Champion Member
Nov 6, 2017
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Send what you have, with a printed copy of your PCC. Add an explanation letter regarding your issue. Offer to send the electronic PCC with signature by mail when/if asked for it.
I don't know if you could send that signature via webform if you get your AOR Depends on the format I guess.
 

Alberto SK

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Feb 22, 2018
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IRCC knows in which formats countries provides PCC. I know that PCC with digital signature from some countries (at least from Russia) is not acceptable. Those applications were returned, and advised to obtain PCC in paper format.
 

zardoz

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Hello,

I am preparing documents to apply for Canadian citizenship. I need to submit a police certificate from another country. I currently have such a police certificate in an electronic form (a pdf document) with a digital signature (a separate file with a .sig extension) that certifies that it indeed comes from the appropriate authority. According to the laws of the country that issued that certificate, a digital version has the same validity/legitimacy as the paper one. Obtaining a paper version of the police certificate for me is complicated and expensive, and I am not going to do that.

Is it possible to submit this digitally signed police certificate in my Canadian citizenship application? Do they accept such a certificate?

The problem is that the application is mailed in the paper format. I can print the pdf file, but it seems that there is no easy way to print the digital signature so that it would be useful (because it signs the whole pdf file itself, not the text content that is printed; in theory, I can print the binary content of both files so that they can scan it and reconstruct the files on their end, but I really doubt that they are going to do that).

As an idea, I can include with my paper application a USB drive with electronic version of the police certificate saved there. But I am not sure if they accept that.

Does anyone have any knowledge/experience about submitting an electronic police certificate for the Canadian citizenship application?
Don't even think about sending a USB drive. It will immediately be discarded. IRCC have made it very clear in the past that they will not accept any form of digital media. (USB, CD, DVD etc). If you can't print it, they won't accept it.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
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I currently have such a police certificate in an electronic form (a pdf document) with a digital signature (a separate file with a .sig extension) that certifies that it indeed comes from the appropriate authority.

I can print the pdf file . . .
Apart from the how-it-should-be tangents (largely if not entirely futile tangents, having nothing to do with how society and government actually make progress), and focusing instead on what we know of the process and ways to navigate it:

As others note, so far as I understand IRCC does not accept or consider digital material EXCEPT to the extent it explicitly is part of the process (some applications are made online for example). So submitting the USB or some similar alternative is probably NOT a viable option.

There are, however, POSSIBLE alternative approaches which, depending on some particular facts, should have a fair probability of success.

First, I assume that the truthful response to item 10.b) in the current application form (the 06-2018 version) is "yes," as in "yes" you have been present in that country for a total of 183 or more days within the last FOUR years.

Thus, you will list that country in the chart. And, the instruction states you "must provide a police certificate" for that country. The instruction guide similarly states a "police certificate" must be provided. So far as I can see, it is ONLY in the checklist (CIT 0007 (05-2018)) that it states "Original police certificates or clearances . . . "

Thus, unless you are willing to wait to apply only AFTER you NO LONGER have been in that country a total of 183 or more days, within the preceding FOUR years, you have three options:

-- do what is necessary to obtain and submit an original police certificate
-- make a statement in the box in the application form explaining that you cannot obtain a police certificate
-- submit a printed copy of the pdf clearance you have (see further considerations if you do this)

The first of the above is the most certain to succeed approach; this will pass the completeness check AND should suffice to document you have NO criminal charges or convictions in that country which would constitute a prohibition.

The second is likely to pass the completeness check but IRCC may later request an updated, original certificate. How it goes will LIKELY (obviously I do not know for sure) depend on whether your explanation is accurate (IRCC generally knows how and when PCCs can be obtained) and perhaps the particulars relative to your presence in that country.

The third is also likely to pass the completeness check. And here too how it goes in the later phases of the process will LIKELY (again, obviously I do not know for sure) depend on the particular facts and circumstances, including the particulars relative to your presence in that country. If you elect to try this option, which seems to me the more practical approach with some reasonable prospect of success, there are some nuances to consider.


Particular considerations if you decide to submit a printed copy of the pdf clearance:

You may want to state, in the box for an explanation, something like "Copy submitted; not able to obtain an original certificate at this time." This will increase the odds the application passes the completeness check. Moreover, you can then check off this item in the checklist without risking it appearing to be a misrepresentation that the document is an original (you could also draw a line through the word "original" on the checklist, but I doubt that is necessary and may cause some confusion in the completeness check screening).

As noted, this should pass the completeness screening and allow the application to proceed to a local office for processing (assuming all other completeness check criteria are met).

IRCC could nonetheless, later in the process, still request you obtain and submit an original certificate. However, this is NOT likely to arise UNTIL the interview. And if this arises in the interview (or perhaps you might want to bring it up, so as to avoid, if possible, the Citizenship Officer deciding to request an original police certificate AFTER the interview, which would likely result in a very lengthy delay in processing), you will be able to explain the situation then and there, personally during the interview. Again, whether your explanation satisfies IRCC will depend in large part on what IRCC knows about obtaining police clearances from this country. If your explanation is consistent with what IRCC knows, that should improve your odds of success by a lot.

If the difficulty is mostly a matter of how long it would take to obtain an original, you could do this, that is submit the copy, in order to make the application sooner rather than waiting. The application should pass the completeness check and go to processing. In the meantime you could be going through the process to obtain an original and hopefully have the original by the time the interview is scheduled, at which time you can bring and present the original. This approach has a quite high probability of success (recognizing, however, that the best assurance of success will be to obtain and submit an original certificate WITH the application).

As I suggested, there are probably some particular facts or circumstances which could influence whether IRCC will accept the copy only, such as amount of time spent in that country, when (recently or not), ties in that country, any other information or indication about potential criminal or security concerns. Thus, this third approach (submitting a copy in lieu of an original) will probably WORK for SOME applicants while it might NOT WORK for some others.

In any event, there is no harm in trying. Worst case scenario is that the application is returned as incomplete. As long as there is some document in the package which appears to be a police certificate and the item is checked on the checklist, this seems rather unlikely . . . that is, this should clear the completeness screening without a problem. Next worse case scenario is that IRCC nonetheless requires you to submit an original police certificate. My sense is you have a fair to good chance that will not happen so long as your explanation is consistent with what IRCC knows about obtaining certificates from this country. If it does happen, it will be your decision, your choice, whether to comply or, in effect, withdraw the application for citizenship. Your choice.

There is one other approach worth consideration. You can WAIT to apply until it is simply no longer true that you were in that country for 183 or more days within the previous four years. However, note that IRCC can still request a police certificate from that country during the processing of your application. The only way to for sure avoid having to provide a police certificate from a particular country would be to WAIT to apply AFTER FOUR years have passed since the last time you were in that country (practically this should not be necessary; but applicants with ongoing ties or presence in the range of four or more months total, have been surprised by a request for a police certificate).

And if IRCC does in effect demand an original, withdrawing the application and waiting to apply later is also an option. In this scenario, however, be aware that IRCC can still make an overseas referral, or a specific inquiry of CSIS, which could lead to a lengthy delay in obtaining the background clearances IRCC has done before an applicant is granted citizenship.



Hello,

I am preparing documents to apply for Canadian citizenship. I need to submit a police certificate from another country. I currently have such a police certificate in an electronic form (a pdf document) with a digital signature (a separate file with a .sig extension) that certifies that it indeed comes from the appropriate authority. According to the laws of the country that issued that certificate, a digital version has the same validity/legitimacy as the paper one. Obtaining a paper version of the police certificate for me is complicated and expensive, and I am not going to do that.

Is it possible to submit this digitally signed police certificate in my Canadian citizenship application? Do they accept such a certificate?

The problem is that the application is mailed in the paper format. I can print the pdf file, but it seems that there is no easy way to print the digital signature so that it would be useful (because it signs the whole pdf file itself, not the text content that is printed; in theory, I can print the binary content of both files so that they can scan it and reconstruct the files on their end, but I really doubt that they are going to do that).

As an idea, I can include with my paper application a USB drive with electronic version of the police certificate saved there. But I am not sure if they accept that.

Does anyone have any knowledge/experience about submitting an electronic police certificate for the Canadian citizenship application?
 
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canyon4

Newbie
Nov 1, 2018
4
0
IRCC knows in which formats countries provides PCC. I know that PCC with digital signature from some countries (at least from Russia) is not acceptable. Those applications were returned, and advised to obtain PCC in paper format.
Can you give me links to discussions of such cases that were rejected? (Even if it's not in English.)
 

canyon4

Newbie
Nov 1, 2018
4
0
Don't even think about sending a USB drive. It will immediately be discarded. IRCC have made it very clear in the past that they will not accept any form of digital media. (USB, CD, DVD etc). If you can't print it, they won't accept it.
Is there any official information on this?
And I wonder what is the justification for this?

I actually wonder if it's even legal. I found that there is a law called "Uniform Electronic Commerce Act":
https://www.ulcc.ca/en/uniform-acts-new-order/older-uniform-acts/703-electronic-commerce/1793-uniform-electronic-commerce-act-consol-2011
In particular, Part 1, section 5 states: "Information shall not be denied legal effect or enforceability solely by reason that it is in electronic form". And I quote further: "If the law does not require particular forms or media, people should be able to provide information electronically under current law. Section 5 will help remove all doubt, by barring discrimination based on the medium of communication. For example, if someone has to give notice to someone else, electronic notice will satisfy that requirement. Section 5 simply underlines that fact."
 

zardoz

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Feb 2, 2013
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Is there any official information on this?
And I wonder what is the justification for this?

I actually wonder if it's even legal. I found that there is a law called "Uniform Electronic Commerce Act":
https://www.ulcc.ca/en/uniform-acts-new-order/older-uniform-acts/703-electronic-commerce/1793-uniform-electronic-commerce-act-consol-2011
In particular, Part 1, section 5 states: "Information shall not be denied legal effect or enforceability solely by reason that it is in electronic form". And I quote further: "If the law does not require particular forms or media, people should be able to provide information electronically under current law. Section 5 will help remove all doubt, by barring discrimination based on the medium of communication. For example, if someone has to give notice to someone else, electronic notice will satisfy that requirement. Section 5 simply underlines that fact."
It used to be explicitly stated, for example in IMM 3910E. (this form is no longer in use)

Note: Photos must be loose. Do not send them in binders, albums, frames or other such containers. Do not send video discs or video cassettes. Do not send musical greeting cards or other similar documents containing electronic or mechanical devices. Proof of your sponsor’s visits such as airline ticket coupons, boarding passes, copies of pages of your sponsor's passport showing entry/exit stamps.

In newer checklists it's even more specific. Example:

Photos of your wedding, customary celebrations, engagement, and/or outings. Provide a maximum of 20 photographs to support your relationship (taken at different times and places). Please write your name and date of birth on the back of each photo and provide a brief description of the context on the back of each photograph; (do not provide CD, DVD, USB keys)

The primary justification is simple. It's a paper based process, where physical paper files are transferred from office to office, and are eventually physically archived. The other obvious issues are media formats that are not readable and for USB key devices, cybersecurity.
 
Last edited:

canyon4

Newbie
Nov 1, 2018
4
0
dpenabill, thank you for your lengthy response.

First, just a small comment on one of your suggestions:
-- make a statement in the box in the application form explaining that you cannot obtain a police certificate
You may want to state, in the box for an explanation, something like "Copy submitted; not able to obtain an original certificate at this time."
Actually, this statement would not be true. Because I WAS able to obtain an original police certificate. Because the electronic one that I have IS an original police certificate. There is nothing wrong with the certificate itself, nor with my ability to obtain it. What I am not able to do is not to obtain it, but to submit it with my application for citizenship.

Now, you are absolutely correct that I can wait until I no longer have stays (either stays longer than 6 months or no stays at all to be sure) outside of Canada in the preceding 4 years, and thus would not be required to submit a police certificate. I need to wait either around 6 months or around a year for that (depending if I want to exclude only stays longer than 6 months or all stays). And currently this is my primary choice.

My thinking is that going with the option with submitting the printed pdf file with an explanation letter, even if eventually accepted, might result in additional delay for the application. Simply because it is something not standard or not common. I might be better off waiting to apply now than waiting longer during the application processing.

In the meantime, I am thinking about submitting some kind of formal complaint about the inability to submit an electronic police certificate. Does anyone have experience with their complaint system. Is it even worth trying?

The issue is that the electronic police certificate is a totally valid document and I see no reason why it should be rejected. Their unwillingness to use modern technology does not seem like a good reason to me.

By the way, it is not at all that rare nowadays. Many countries issue electronic police certificates. Even some police departments in Canada itself do so. For example: https://www.ottawapolice.ca/en/about-us/FAQs.asp#whatisadigitalsignature
So it makes no sense for Canada not to recognize such certificates.