Do the "Second Generation Abroad" rules apply to me in my case?

[Link N. Parker]

Hi everyone,

This is a very useful website and forum, and I am glad that I found it.

I am wondering if the "Second-Generation Abroad" rules apply to me or not.

I have never lived in Canada, although I have visited, and I am interested in moving to Canada permanently.

Here is the situation - My grandfather was born in 1920 in Alberta, and never renounced it, therefore he would be deemed a Canadian citizen under the current law.

In 1947, he married a woman from the US and they gave birth to my mother later that year.

My mother has never lived in Canada, but based on the current law, my mother can claim Canadian citizenship.

In 1973, she gave birth to me here in the US, but because she was not aware of it at the time, she did not know that she needed to register my birth with the Canadian government.

I am now 40 years old. Is it too late for me to claim Canadian citizenship? I have read many of the websites out there and there is a lot of conflicting information, a lot of it is based on whether or not one was born before/after 1977 and even then, a lot of the websites seem to focus on people who were born after 1977.

Thanks in advance for any information or clarification!

 

[scylla]

Have you tried taking the following online test?

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizenship/rules/tool_04.asp

 

[Link N. Parker]

Have you tried taking the following online test?

Hi Scylla,

Thank you for your reply! Yes I actually have seen that before, and have gone thru the mini-quiz; it does say that "it appears that you are not a Canadian citizen", but then it tells me that I have the option to apply for Proof of Canadian Citizenship. Which, I am willing to do (since its only $75) but it still seems vague as to whether or not I will qualify. Its like they are teasing me by telling me that I am not a Canadian citizen, but I can apply anyway for the certificate. I am not sure what that means. It seems like if I didnt stand a chance, their system would probably just say "Based on your answers, you likely will not be able to claim it".

Im trying not to get my hopes up, as I want to move to Canada and I am sad, because I think I will be told I dont qualify (although I know that I will be able to get a PR and move there but that takes years etc).

 

[Link N. Parker]

Also, when it tells me that I am "likely not a citizen", it gives you a whole list of reasons why I might not be one, and this is one that looks like it applies to me:

"You are of the second or subsequent generation born outside Canada to a Canadian parent between January 1, 1947, and February 14, 1977, and you did not take the necessary steps to either register your birth outside Canada or apply for a direct grant of citizenship in order to become a Canadian citizen."

But it doesnt tell me that I absolutely dont qualify for the Certificate. Its confusing...if I dont qualify, I will be so let down!

 

[scylla]

I think your main problem is that your birth wasn't registered with Canada. I don't know how / if you can fix this. Hopefully someone else will be able to help. Good luck.

 

[Link N. Parker]

I think your main problem is that your birth wasn't registered with Canada. I don't know how / if you can fix this. Hopefully someone else will be able to help. Good luck.

Thanks Scylla - I guess all I can do is apply...my mother is going to apply (I know she will get her Cert) and then I can apply as well. If I dont get the Cert - then C'est La Vie...

 

[scylla]

Thanks Scylla - I guess all I can do is apply...my mother is going to apply (I know she will get her Cert) and then I can apply as well. If I dont get the Cert - then C'est La Vie...

That's what I would do. Might as well try. Good luck - let us know how it goes!

 

[Link N. Parker]

I will post updates here in this thread as they happen.

 

[Link N. Parker]

Ok, so I contacted my grandmother, she has my grandfather's Alberta birth certificate. My mother is going to follow the process to claim her citizenship card (and so is her sister), and then after that, I can apply, although I am 99% certain that I will be denied, simply due to the fact that I never retained my citizenship. I think there may be a 1% chance that they will approve me because my mother was born as a "naturalized" citizen, because her canadian parent was MALE. But even then, I still think it will be denied because I never registered.

And that is what is frustrating. My whole life, I always wanted to live in Canada. When my mother told me as a child, that my grandfather was born in Canada, I was always very proud of this and from that point on, was always very fascinated by canadian culture. My grandfather used to tell me what it was like to live in Alberta. In high school in Ohio in the late 1980's, when going to choose which foreign language to study, I chose French, simply because I was proud of this heritage (and actually became very skilled and proficient in French...I wound up studying it for 4 years!). I always loved Canadian-made TV shows when they were shown on US television. And we only lived about 3 hours from the border; we could drive up I-75 to Detroit, and cross into Canada at Windsor.

Had I known that I qualified to go live there, I would have chosen to do so. Back in the early 90's, had I known that I had the right to live there, I would have tried to move there and retain citizenship, but it was very difficult to know about this, in the era before the internet. I was not aware of an age limit and even if I had known of the age limit, in order to retain it, one had to actually have lived there for one year anyway before filing, which I wouldnt have been able to do, because I had no way of proving that I even *had* the right to enter the country in the first place, to live and work. Its like a catch-22; I would not have been able to enter (due to no proof of citizenship) and therefore would have had no way to live there for a year, in order to file for retention. That's crazy!

What makes it even more aggravating, is I have a cousin (another 2nd gen'er) who was born in 1991, one year after my grandfather passed away. But because that cousin is not yet 28 years old, he currently HAS the right to claim his citizenship, although he never knew his canadian grandfather. But, that cousin's two older siblings, who were born in 1979 and 1982, are NOT allowed to claim. It's completely ridiculous!!!

The law needs to be changed, to grandfather in (no pun intended) all 2nd gen'ers...especially those who had a claim at one time but lost it due to legal glitches, catch-22's and no reasonable way to know about the 28th Birthday age limit.

 

[scylla]

The law needs to be changed, to grandfather in (no pun intended) all 2nd gen'ers...especially those who had a claim at one time but lost it due to legal glitches,

Unfortunately I think there's zero chance of this happening. The majority of Canadians agree with the new rules (they were received very well when they were announced) and these rules were introduced largely due to public pressure / demand. (Not saying I agree. Just explaining how things got to be the way they are.) The general feeling is that Canadian citizenship (like the citizenship of any country) should not be given out lightly and should be earned by showing a committment to Canada. Before the new rules were introduced, the feeling was that it was too easy to pass on citizenship without showing a committment to Canada. In your mother's case, those who are in favour of the new rules would argue that your mother never showed a committment to Canada (i.e. never bothered to get citizenship, didn't move there to live) and for this reason hasn't earned the right to pass on her citizenship to her children. Again, not saying I agree, just letting you know what you'll hear from the average Canadian. CIC had to grandfather some of the older rules that had been previously announced. However as time passes, I believe the overall aim is to move to a model where 2nd geners receive no benefit.

Have you checked out any of the immigration programs yet? Maybe qualifying to immigrate (e.g. as a skilled worker, trades person) is an option?

 

[Link N. Parker]

Hi Scylla,

I agree with what you say, and actually I also agree with the rule in general, that people without a significant connection or commitment to Canada, should not be allowed to just claim a citizenship; I just think that there should be one final grandfathering in of people who were born before 2009, just to make sure that there are no possible people who had a chance and then lost it due to technicalities, or based on what gender their parent was etc. Its not fair my cousin can claim but not I; it seems like this is not equal opportunity under the law.

I did actually look at the immigration policies and I do think I have a strong chance of being able to move there; I am 100% fluent in both English and French (speaking, hearing, listening, reading) and I have 14 years experience in my current field (computer engineer...racking computer hardware, wiring it in, installing the OS and supporting the end users). But it seems like the immigration path is long, complicated and risky. Moving there as a citizen would be difficult enough (looking for a job that would accept my substantial US career work history) but to throw the difficulties of the immigration path on there, makes it even more difficult. Interestingly enough, I looked at the immigration site for Quebec (they have even tighter restrictions on immigration than the rest of canada) and I actually do qualify to move there - primarily because I am fluent in both French and English! So there is a good chance I would get accepted no matter what. But, its still very challenging.

 

[dattad]

Link,

With Computer Science Experience you will have no trouble landing a good job in Canada; and first, you can come with a NAFTA Work Permit. Second, after working here for one year you can apply for PR through Canadian Experience Path rather than Skilled Worker; much simpler.

There are some companies in Canada that are well familiarized with the LMO and NAFTA Work Visa Processes; so I would explore that option for sure.

In the meantime, nothing prevents you from applying for Citizenship if possible.

Just a thought.
D.

 

[Link N. Parker]

Link,

With Computer Science Experience you will have no trouble landing a good job in Canada; and first, you can come with a NAFTA Work Permit. Second, after working here for one year you can apply for PR through Canadian Experience Path rather than Skilled Worker; much simpler.

There are some companies in Canada that are well familiarized with the LMO and NAFTA Work Visa Processes; so I would explore that option for sure.

In the meantime, nothing prevents you from applying for Citizenship if possible.

Just a thought.
D.

Hi Dattad,

Thank you for your reply, yes you are right, now that I think about it, I do believe I will be able to get a good IT job once I am there. I think my main concern is "How do I get there when I dont have a job lined up, and I have to able to live there first in order to get the job". I also have to be living there (with a a PR card) in order to apply for citizenship.

So, its another tough move to make. I would have to not only quit my current job to move there, but would have to burn thru savings while being there while looking for work.

I did come up with a plan though; instead of trying to go there thru skilled worker route, I was thinking instead of getting Short term permit (6 months or less), and then living there and looking for job in the 6 months. If you need more time, the Gov lets you ask for another 6 month permit. I dont know if I can work under that permit though; so once I was there, I would have to figure out a way to explain to an employer that I am there temporarily but I would like to be perm, but I need an employer to sponsor me.

So, the whole thing can be tricky and risky.

 

[scylla]

I did come up with a plan though; instead of trying to go there thru skilled worker route, I was thinking instead of getting Short term permit (6 months or less), and then living there and looking for job in the 6 months. If you need more time, the Gov lets you ask for another 6 month permit.

Since you are American, you can visit Canada without applying for a TRV (temporary resident visa - tourist visa). However be aware that you are only allowed to come to Canada as a tourist - you are not allowed to "live" here. If you show up at the border looking like you're planning on moving to Canada, you could be denied entry. So pack like a tourist and don't bring things with you that you wouldn't normally bring on holidays. You can certainly look for a job while here as a visitor. If you want to stay longer than six months, you must apply for an extension. Note that there is no guarantee this extension will be approved.

And no - you cannot work while in Canada as a tourist. You need a work permit to be allowed to work. And to obtain a work permit - you first need an employer and a job offer.

 

[Link N. Parker]

Since you are American, you can visit Canada without applying for a TRV (temporary resident visa - tourist visa). However be aware that you are only allowed to come to Canada as a tourist - you are not allowed to "live" here. If you show up at the border looking like you're planning on moving to Canada, you could be denied entry. So pack like a tourist and don't bring things with you that you wouldn't normally bring on holidays. You can certainly look for a job while here as a visitor. If you want to stay longer than six months, you must apply for an extension. Note that there is no guarantee this extension will be approved.

And no - you cannot work while in Canada as a tourist. You need a work permit to be allowed to work. And to obtain a work permit - you first need an employer and a job offer.

Hi Scylla! Yes this is great info. This is more or less what I was planning on doing - showing up with my luggage and just "living" out of a hotel room while I network and look for work. I was going to get a Montreal cell phone and then talk to recruiters who know I need sponsorship. That way, I am only working with recruiters and employers who are ok with sponsorship. After getting sponsored (and hired), I would then either ship my stuff from storage unit in the US, or just buy new furniture there in MTL.