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Do I need a PCC from US?

Das67

Hero Member
Oct 19, 2019
967
560
Technically they should be asking for all period after submission of PR application because (in my case)submitting PR application in 2015 with pcc and its approved in 2016 and landing/moving in 2017 would anyway have any crimes from 2015. So having exemption till landing will have same problem which cant be prevented just because one doesnt go back after landing.

Will see what happens to my May application in few weeks if your interpretation is correct or mine.
That is why IRCC will conduct criminal and security checks on all applicants during the citizenship process.
I really hope your interpretation is correct and your application is not returned as no one wants this but if you read the requirement carefully and in fact, you went back to the USA after landing for more than 183 days in the row you will need a new PCC.
Below is an example from the guide

Example 1You lived in France for one year (365 days) before you became a permanent resident 3 years ago. You did not travel to France after you became a permanent resident. You would answer “Yes” to the question and you would need to provide a police certificate from France if you did not provide one with your immigration application. If you provided a police certificate from France with your immigration application, tell us this in the box provided at Question 10b.
 

amandeep89

Member
Aug 19, 2020
10
3
Would recommend you to apply for US PCC, I did that for my application. US has made changes and now you can get the PCC in 5 business days. See the steps that is given on the website. Essentially this is what you have to do
1. Build an online account for fbi
2. Take finger print in canada
3. Mail finger print to FBI

I got my US PCC in 3 hours after they received my finger prints. Its really straight forward now
 
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Nick1233

Star Member
Dec 16, 2019
131
19
Technically they should be asking for all period after submission of PR application because (in my case)submitting PR application in 2015 with pcc and its approved in 2016 and landing/moving in 2016 would anyway have any crimes from 2015. So having exemption till landing will have same problem which cant be prevented just because one doesnt go back after landing.

Will see what happens to my May application in few weeks if your interpretation is correct or mine.
I see your point but in that case, application for PR was already evaluated and approved in 2016. However, with citizenship application pending, it is a risk for candidates.
 

nskatcv

Champion Member
May 27, 2014
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Category........
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Jul 08 2015
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Jan 09 2016
Would recommend you to apply for US PCC, I did that for my application. US has made changes and now you can get the PCC in 5 business days. See the steps that is given on the website. Essentially this is what you have to do
1. Build an online account for fbi
2. Take finger print in canada
3. Mail finger print to FBI

I got my US PCC in 3 hours after they received my finger prints. Its really straight forward now
@amandeep89

Thanks for this info. I am sure you meant 3 days instead of hours.

Did you take the fingerprints yourself or got them done at a Police Station in Canada, or other private agency?

Also, could you please tell me when did you apply for the US PCC? Recently or a while ago.

Lastly, the FBI website says,

Current processing time for Identity History Summary requests submitted electronically is estimated to be three to five business days upon receipt of the fingerprint card. Allow additional time for mail delivery if this option was selected during the request process.

Current processing time for Identity History Summary requests submitted via the mail is 12 weeks. Allow additional time for mail delivery.


So if you submitted paper prints via mail, how come you got the PCC so soon? Or did you do that electronically? But that is not possible from outside US I presume. Only available at 81 participating US Post Office locations.

Thanks
 
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dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,387
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The following goes long. And addresses a tangent about completeness screening in general.

(If I am posting a response it is usually to address a more complicated aspect of an issue.)

If it is a close call, and especially if obtaining a Police Clearance Certificate (or equivalent) is not especially inconvenient, as others suggest, it is probably better to simply do it: obtain and submit the PCC.

Waiting until the number of days in a row in the other country, within the preceding four years, falls to 182 or fewer days, that will allow an applicant to truthfully check [No] in item 10. b), and then the application will be COMPLETE, and thus NOT returned as incomplete, even though no PCC is included.

Technically a trip outside that country in the middle of the seven or so months living there will also allow the applicant to truthfully check [No] and not be required to submit a PCC with the application.

And in practice (subject to a caveat I hope to address below), the applicant can check [No], not include a PCC, and the application will not be returned as incomplete EVEN IF the accurate answer should be [Yes] and the applicant should be including a PCC.

Bringing this to the reason for my observations: There is a difference between failing to submit a *complete* application, which results in the return of the application without processing, and what happens if the application is *complete* but --
-- there may be related questions or concerns otherwise, or​
-- the applicant failed to properly or accurately provide information​

This is particularly applicable in regards to item 10. b) and whether the applicant is required to submit a PCC with the application.

Generally, checking [No] in response to item 10. b), or checking [Yes] but giving an explanation (either as to an exception to the requirement, or as to why a PCC cannot be included) in the chart, means the applicant does not need to include a PCC with the application.

Foremost, applicants should be aware that even if the applicant is NOT required, per the instructions, to submit a PCC with the application, IRCC can LATER request a PCC or pursue other resources to investigate whether the applicant has any prohibition arising from criminal offences in other countries . . . remember, the requirement to include a police clearance is ONLY a requirement applicable to what constitutes a complete application. The related qualifying requirement is that the applicant have NO criminal charges constituting a prohibition, including none in any country within the four years preceding applying. Whether or not the applicant meets the criteria requiring a PCC be included with the application, the applicant MUST nonetheless have NO criminal charges constituting a prohibition.

Thus, for example, where the applicant can TECHNICALLY check [No], based on waiting until the days-in-a-row fall to 182 or fewer, or because there was a break in the days-in-a-row due to a trip outside that country, sure that means the applicant does not need to include a PCC to make a complete application . . . but IRCC can still request a PCC later in the process . . . or, which has the potential for causing a longer delay in processing, IRCC might pursue other means to investigate and verify whether an applicant has a prohibition arising from criminal offences abroad, regarding which we do not know the full range of investigatory means available, but obviously at the least ranging from IRCC visa office inquiries in the respective country or countries, to CSIS investigations, and perhaps other international arrangements for governments to conduct background checks.

Those alternatives are likewise applicable if the applicant inaccurately checks [No], EVEN IF the applicant should have checked [Yes] and submitted a PCC. Again, this will generally (again subject to a caveat I hope to address below) PASS the completeness screening and the application will NOT be returned as incomplete . . . even if a PCC should have been included WITH the application (if item 10. b) had been accurately answered). Downside, which should be obvious, is that this can have significantly more negative consequences than merely the inconvenience and time it takes to obtain a PCC to submit with the application.

Similarly for *explanations* entered in the chart; an explanation will, generally (again with the caveat), mean the applicant does NOT need to include a PCC with the application, even if the applicant is not truly entitled to that explanation. Thus, the application will not be returned. BUT . . .


AN OVERALL REMINDER:
There are separate *requirements* for what constitutes a complete application. Submitting a complete application is, itself, just ONE of the qualifying requirements to be granted citizenship. Meeting this particular requirement does not, not by itself, satisfy any of the other substantive requirements.

Including a PCC with the application, for example, does not prove that an applicant has no prohibitions. And applicants who are not required to include a PCC with the application still must meet the requirement they have no foreign criminal charges constituting a prohibition.

Including proof of ability in one of official languages, for another example, does NOT prove the applicant meets the language requirement; it only satisfies the requirements for what constitutes a complete application. (Thus, for example, applicants are still screened for ability in one of the official languages attendant the test and interview.)

What will pass the completeness screening is the bare minimum. And passing the completeness screening (which is indicated by getting AOR) does NOT mean IRCC has verified the applicant has met any of the substantive requirements . . . with some small exceptions.

Leading to the "caveat" I referenced above.

The completeness screening is MOSTLY superficial. It is mostly screening to see the required information is included and is NOT about evaluating the quality or accuracy of that information.

With some exceptions. To some extent, for example, certain items are screened to make sure there are NO gaps in dates. Like employment and address history.

It appears that some cross-checking of information is done attendant the completeness screening. We know, for example, that some applicants who report having listed days in Canada with temporary resident status, to be counted toward meeting the presence requirement, have had their applications returned when, during the completeness screening, IRCC could not verify in GCMS the applicant had status during that period of time (this tends to affect visa-exempt individuals with significant periods of time in Canada as a visitor, for which there was no formal visa or visitor-record in their GCMS records).

We do NOT know to what extent, during the completeness screening, there is such cross-checking . . . even as to cross-checking information in the application itself. It is clearly NOT a lot. Appears to be rather minimal.

For example: During the period of time in which applicants were required to submit a PCC with the application if the applicant spent more than 183 days IN TOTAL in another country, there were scores and scores of anecdotal reports from applicants who improperly (inaccurately) checked [No] for what is now item 10. b) (most failing to consider the total number of days from multiple trips) and even though this may have been obvious in the applicant's printout of the physical presence calculation, their applications were NOT returned (later consequences varied, many simply being requested, during or after their interview, to obtain and submit a PCC). That is, it was clear that the completeness screening did not include cross-checking the item 10. b) information against the physical presence calculation.

It could be different now that what triggers the requirement to submit a PCC is 183 days in a row, which is easier to cross-check in the applicant's printout of the presence calculation.

Similarly, relative to listing a country but then giving an "explanation" which eliminates the requirement (for what makes a complete application) to include a PCC. We do not know to what extent the completeness screening only checks that there is an explanation provided, or to what extent it substantively evaluates the explanation.

The point of all this is to emphasize that the completeness screening is NOT substantive, or at least not much so. For example, as long as the applicant lists employment activities without any gaps in the dates, and enters at least a modicum of information in the chart, the application will LIKELY pass the completeness screening EVEN IF that information is inaccurate or vague or does not make a lot of sense . . . perhaps even listing "playing with two cats and a dog" in the occupation column will pass the completeness screening (though maybe not something so blatantly non-responsive).

Example to follow.
 
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dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
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Example Regarding Exception Based on Country of Origin:

Why IRCC might treat the applicant's *home* country, country of nationality, differently than, say, the country the applicant may have been living in prior to and during the process of becoming a PR, I do not know.

My impression is that Example 1, referencing spending a year in France prior to becoming a PR, is a DIFFERENT situation than what is referenced in the instruction saying that if the 183 days in a row was in the applicant's "Country of ORIGIN," no PCC is required. In particular, there is the use of the term "country of origin" in the instruction, but not in the example regarding a year in France, in conjunction with what they respectively instruct, with no mention that a return to country of origin after landing triggers the need for a PCC but in Example 1 a return to France after landing does mean the applicant needs to submit a PCC.

My take is that country of origin means the applicant's home country, country of nationality. Example one is about any country the applicant was living in prior to and during the time the individual was becoming a PR.

Here's the rub: Assuming this distinction is correct (while I think it is, I am NOT certain it is), and the individual was in the U.S. for years prior to becoming a PR, but was in the U.S. with some kind of temporary status, and the individual occasionally returned to the U.S. after becoming a PR, this individual might check [Yes] for item 10. b) and enter the explanation "183 days in a row was in country of origin" . . . even though, if this distinction is right, this is NOT an accurate explanation. THIS WILL PROBABLY PASS the COMPLETENESS SCREENING. That is, the application will not be returned because the applicant failed to include a PCC . . . even if the applicant SHOULD HAVE INCLUDED the PCC.

What happens then, later in the processing of the application, can vary. Anecdotal reports indicate some will get a request for a PCC later in the process, typically during or soon following the interview. Depending on which country is involved, however, and other factors (like how much time was spent in the other country during the four years that count and after landing), there may be no impact, or at the other end of the spectrum the applicant's application processing could be delayed pending investigations into whether the applicant has any criminal prohibitions in the other country.

Note, as well, that where that other country is the U.S., that may be treated differently than if it was some other country. IRCC can access a database which will screen individuals for name-record criminal history in the U.S. This is part of the U.S. and Canada information sharing protocols. So it is fairly easy for IRCC to verify an applicant has no prohibitions arising from criminal history in the U.S. For example, while it is difficult to pinpoint the data, there are plenty of indications that applicants who have spent a significant amount of time in certain countries in the world, even if not close to 183 days in a row, seem to be at risk for background screening delays. (And this is not uniform; for example, applicants who return to Iran, one of those "certain" countries in the world, seem to be among those quite often encountering such delays, but some report no delays at all.)
 
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nskatcv

Champion Member
May 27, 2014
1,060
205
Category........
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
Aug 11 2014
Med's Done....
Feb 16 2015
Passport Req..
Jul 03 2015
VISA ISSUED...
Jul 08 2015
LANDED..........
Jan 09 2016
Example Regarding Exception Based on Country of Origin:

Why IRCC might treat the applicant's *home* country, country of nationality, differently than, say, the country the applicant may have been living in prior to and during the process of becoming a PR, I do not know.

My impression is that Example 1, referencing spending a year in France prior to becoming a PR, is a DIFFERENT situation than what is referenced in the instruction saying that if the 183 days in a row was in the applicant's "Country of ORIGIN," no PCC is required. In particular, there is the use of the term "country of origin" in the instruction, but not in the example regarding a year in France, in conjunction with what they respectively instruct, with no mention that a return to country of origin after landing triggers the need for a PCC but in Example 1 a return to France after landing does mean the applicant needs to submit a PCC.)
Thanks @dpenabill for this thorough response. What you wrote makes sense.

In regards to the Example 1,

You lived in France for one year (365 days) before you became a permanent resident 3 years ago. You did not travel to France after you became a permanent resident. You would answer “Yes” to the question and you would need to provide a police certificate from France if you did not provide one with your immigration application. If you provided a police certificate from France with your immigration application, tell us this in the box provided at Question 10b.
I think as most of us DO provide PCC with the PR application (including me), your suggestion of writing 'the 183 days in a row was in the applicant's "Country of ORIGIN', as an explanation should work out.

In nutshell, I could wait for a couple of months and come out of the mandatory 183 days condition and then be fully sure of satisfying the completeness criterion. But still need to be prepared to submit a PCC if CIC wants it.

OR, I can just procure the PCC now and submit it along with the application putting all questions to rest. (Do you think long delays these days may render it invalid in a year's time and I may have to resubmit a fresh one?) Perhaps not, because the PCC I submit now will pertain to a past time period already spent in US I guess.

Thirdly, I can just submit the application right away without the PCC along with the explanation (as mentioned earlier), with a HIGH chance of satisfying the completeness criterion. This is perhaps the riskiest of all, albeit with a very low risk.

Thanks!
 

amandeep89

Member
Aug 19, 2020
10
3
@amandeep89

Thanks for this info. I am sure you meant 3 days instead of hours.

Did you take the fingerprints yourself or got them done at a Police Station in Canada, or other private agency?

Also, could you please tell me when did you apply for the US PCC? Recently or a while ago.

Lastly, the FBI website says,

Current processing time for Identity History Summary requests submitted electronically is estimated to be three to five business days upon receipt of the fingerprint card. Allow additional time for mail delivery if this option was selected during the request process.

Current processing time for Identity History Summary requests submitted via the mail is 12 weeks. Allow additional time for mail delivery.


So if you submitted paper prints via mail, how come you got the PCC so soon? Or did you do that electronically? But that is not possible from outside US I presume. Only available at 81 participating US Post Office locations.

Thanks
It was 3 hours after it was delivered, it was so quick. And the 12 week info is if you do not create an online account. I took the finger print from a private agency

https://www.edo.cjis.gov/#/
Go here and create your account. After you have done that they will ask you to pay and an email will be sent to you with the receipt. Print the email, take the fingerprints and send it by fedex or whatever to US. The results will be with you in 5 days. Its a new process started last year

I took the fingerprint from https://www.canadianfingerprints.com/

There are other places you can take it from as well. Just google it. If I were you I would just get this done and not risk the app. Really straight forward.
I got this done 2 weeks ago
 
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