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Did law change so that now travel days can be counted as residence days?

snoopy719

Member
Nov 27, 2016
12
6
Dear All,

I've been told that the law changed in 2015 so that now if someone travels outside Canada on, for example, June 10, and returns on June 15, then he can count both June 10 and June 15 as days present in Canada for purposes of the four-year residence requirement necessary for citizenship?

My understanding had always been that you count either June 10 or June 15, but not both. But, now, apparently you can count both? Does that mean that if you travel on June 10 and return on June 11, then you have no days of absence?

Is all this true or have I been given false information?

I've tried to find an official answer on the CIC website but was not successful.

My apologies if this is a repeated question, but I think the answer would also be useful to others.

Thanks,

Snoopy
 

itsmyid

Champion Member
Jul 26, 2012
2,250
649
snoopy719 said:
Dear All,

I've been told that the law changed in 2015 so that now if someone travels outside Canada on, for example, June 10, and returns on June 15, then he can count both June 10 and June 15 as days present in Canada for purposes of the four-year residence requirement necessary for citizenship?

My understanding had always been that you count either June 10 or June 15, but not both. But, now, apparently you can count both? Does that mean that if you travel on June 10 and return on June 11, then you have no days of absence?

Is all this true or have I been given false information?

I've tried to find an official answer on the CIC website but was not successful.

My apologies if this is a repeated question, but I think the answer would also be useful to others.

Thanks,

Snoopy
The entire bill is not very long, and the section with regard to residency requirement is just a few short paragraphs
http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=E&Mode=1&DocId=8380792

and if you are still not sure, just go to CIC's website and look for its calculator, put in the dates in your example and see what comes up
 

snoopy719

Member
Nov 27, 2016
12
6
The link you provided refers to bill C-6. That bill hasn't passed the Senate yet.

I was told that the law changed in 2015 changing things so that, on a trip, the day you depart and the day you return can be counted as residence days. Is that accurate or false?

Thanks,

Snoopy
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,469
3,221
snoopy719 said:
Dear All,

I've been told that the law changed in 2015 so that now if someone travels outside Canada on, for example, June 10, and returns on June 15, then he can count both June 10 and June 15 as days present in Canada for purposes of the four-year residence requirement necessary for citizenship?

My understanding had always been that you count either June 10 or June 15, but not both. But, now, apparently you can count both? Does that mean that if you travel on June 10 and return on June 11, then you have no days of absence?

Is all this true or have I been given false information?

I've tried to find an official answer on the CIC website but was not successful.

My apologies if this is a repeated question, but I think the answer would also be useful to others.

Thanks,

Snoopy
It is correct that since the implementation of the physical presence requirement June 11, 2015 that any day spent in Canada, even if partially, now counts toward meeting the presence requirement. So yes, both the date a PR exits Canada and the date the PR returns to Canada count.

That said, a couple reminders warrant some emphasis:

-- the best source for determining number of days that count is the online physical presence calculator, so long as the exit and entry dates are completely and accurately entered

-- accuracy of dates entered into the presence calculator depends on entering the date of actual exit and date of actual entry; for example, too many applicants appear to rely on stamps indicating date of entry into another country for reporting date of exit from Canada, when the flight they took departed (or was even scheduled to depart but sat on the tarmac waiting before actual take-off) the previous date . . . and for Trans-Pacific flights the date of exit could be two days prior to date stamped upon arrival abroad


Note regarding consulting the statutory provision itself: while I am a big, big fan of researching official and especially primary sources, interpreting statutory and regulatory provisions is rife with pitfalls. Without examining explicit policy information regarding how days are calculated, for example, it would be difficult to discern from the statutory and regulatory provisions themselves the difference in how entry and exit dates are calculated in the current law compared to the prior law, when as you note the applicant was only given credit for one or the other, not both.
 

spyfy

Champion Member
May 8, 2015
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See here. Under the current rules, departure and arrival day do NOT count as absences.
https://eservices.cic.gc.ca/rescalc/redir.do?redir=faq#Q3

As far as I know this will remain the same under C-6.

Note: You still have to declare this absence in the residency calculator! But it counts as zero days.
 

younes123

Full Member
Nov 23, 2015
42
5
snoopy719 said:
Dear All,

I've been told that the law changed in 2015 so that now if someone travels outside Canada on, for example, June 10, and returns on June 15, then he can count both June 10 and June 15 as days present in Canada for purposes of the four-year residence requirement necessary for citizenship?

My understanding had always been that you count either June 10 or June 15, but not both. But, now, apparently you can count both? Does that mean that if you travel on June 10 and return on June 11, then you have no days of absence?

Is all this true or have I been given false information?

I've tried to find an official answer on the CIC website but was not successful.

My apologies if this is a repeated question, but I think the answer would also be useful to others.

Thanks,

Snoopy
See this example from the online Physical Presence Calculator: From 2016-09-10 TO 2016-09-13 # Days: 2
 
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links18

Champion Member
Feb 1, 2006
2,009
129
They don't count as "residence days," because residence is totally irrelevant now. They count as physical presence days, which you apparently now acquire without actually being resident in Canada. Weird right?
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,469
3,221
links18 said:
They don't count as "residence days," because residence is totally irrelevant now. They count as physical presence days, which you apparently now acquire without actually being resident in Canada. Weird right?
In a way, yes, and potentially subject to some rather odd results, at least ostensibly and which could loom more prominently if and when the 3/5 presence rule is adopted. That said, in all but some tortured circumstances, it would be highly unusual for a person to meet the current physical presence requirements without being an actual resident of Canada.

With minimal potential for deviations, a strict physical presence test is more reliable and more definitive, less prone to inconsistent application or abuse of discretion, than a residency test, and far more so than a requirement like that provided under the previous law which was a residency requirement subject to profoundly inconsistent standards in assessing residency. That is, sure some injustice or at least apparently unfair consequences can arise from applying a strict presence test, but a lot, lot less so compared to the old 3/4 residency rule.



Some observations about residency requirements generally:

Residency requirements are notoriously porous. For many if not most purposes, an individual can legitimately refer to residency in a location he rarely spends much time at. For many purposes, primary place of residence is largely a matter of intention requiring only a modicum amount of actual physical ties to the place.

This is in large part why more stringent requirements are often imposed for certain kinds of benefits. For example, the Ontario Health Insurance Plan (OHIP) has a combined residency plus physical presence requirement, such that only actual residents of Ontario are eligible but they must also spend at least 153 days of the calendar year in Canada to be eligible.

For the most part IRCC (and CIC before that) tend to mean actual place of abode when asking clients to disclose their residential address, and usually expect this to be at least as detailed as per calendar month. Clients who report residential addresses based on more fluid concepts of residency, without either clarifying extended periods of time spent boarding elsewhere, or otherwise declaring extended presence elsewhere (such as disclosing location abroad in travel declaration), can risk suspicions or allegations of misrepresentation. Those who use a family member or friend's address as their residential address, while not really living at that address, do so at their peril.

In any event, pursuant to the usual understanding about what is meant by residency, one remains a resident of a place while traveling, while temporarily away from their place of residence. For example, no advanced degree in civil engineering is necessary to recognize that someone who maintains their primary residence in Toronto continues to be a resident of Toronto even though he is spending three weeks in Ottawa, or three weeks in Banff. One does not change his or her residential address as he or she travels around away from home.

In the meantime, the old 3/4 residency rule was inherently incongruous, and more significantly, confusing, since for some applicants time spent on holidays abroad could count toward meeting the requirement, while for other applicants such time did not count. Citizenship Judges could decide whether to apply a qualitative residency test or apply a strict physical presence test . . . with no need to justify or even explain which test they chose to apply, often not even disclosing which test was being applied to the applicant except in the decision itself.

But, if a resident of Toronto is still a resident of Toronto while he is visiting Ottawa for three weeks, and still a resident of Ontario if it is Banff, Alberta he is visiting, and this is true even if he is visiting New York or Santiago, Chile, then how is it that he is a resident of Toronto, of Ontario, while on such a trip but not a resident of Canada? Especially considering a different Citizenship Judge could indeed conclude he was still resident-in-Canada during the visit to Santiago, Chile . . . and the very same CJ could decide a different applicant would not get credit for those days but could only count days actually present in Canada.

The former law was a mess, a mess for a very, very long time, and had been repeatedly assailed by Federal Court justices as such, prone to not only disparate results but to outright injustice. Citizenship applicants were not even entitled to know ahead of time which test would be used in their case . . . so short-fall applicants (those who applied based on being resident in Canada for three years but falling short of meeting the actual physical presence test) could have their application in process for years and then go to the CJ hearing without knowing which test the CJ would apply. And, again, many would not learn which test the CJ was applying until they received a negative decision in the mail (a small number of these were overruled by the Federal Court deciding this breached their right to procedural fairness, but more of these cases were upheld than overturned).


Overall: Whether one agrees with the specifics of a physical presence requirement, or not, the physical presence requirement can be more uniformly and consistently applied than a residency test.


Potential oddities:

Without guessing how a particular case would be actually handled by IRCC, among scenarios pushing the envelope are commuter cases, of which there are more than a few, where for example the PR lives in Windsor and has a daily commute to Detroit for work. There are reports of successful applications for citizenship by such individuals, but there are also reports and published official decisions reflecting more than a few such applicants running into serious problems. Typically the problem is not about getting credit for the days actually spent in Canada, even though much of the day was in the U.S., but about sufficiently proving all such days to be counted as in Canada. That is, in many of these cases it appears that IRCC will be rather if not highly skeptical and might require the applicant to more extensively prove days actually in Canada. But, if IRCC decides the applicant has proven he was commuting and in Canada each day as reported, and those days add up to meeting the physical presence requirement, citizenship should be (and apparently is) granted.

But what about the reverse commuter, one who is living in Buffalo, N.Y., say, and commuting to a tech job in the GTA? And in doing this, is in Canada working at least an average of 245 days a year? In six years, that totals more than 1460 days and meets the physical presence requirement. Eligible for citizenship? Not really, not under the current law. The current law requires the applicant to be resident in Canada at least as of the day before applying and doing so with an intent to continue to reside in Canada (the intent-to-continue-residing in Canada requirement).

While the current government appears to not be aggressively or strictly enforcing the intent to continue residing in Canada requirement (although applicants must still declare such intent), I'd guess this is a scenario in which it would indeed be enforced.

Which leads to Bill C-6 and the removal of the intent-to-continue-residing in Canada requirement, and moreover reducing the percentage of days an individual will need to be physically present in Canada. Once Bill C-6 is adopted and applied, a commuter from Buffalo could conceivably commute to Canada just an average of 220 days per year and never even reside in Canada, but yet be qualified for a grant of citizenship after five years.


Why not a hybrid residency plus presence test?

The current law, as I noted above, does have, in effect, a residency requirement. And while it only requires an applicant to be resident in Canada as of at least the day before applying, so that the applicant can have the requisite intent to continue residing in Canada, one can easily bet that even under the current government an applicant commuting to Canada from the States would be subject to intensely skeptical scrutiny.

But there is no comparable requirement in Bill C-6.

In many respects, the approach taken by OHIP seems reasonable, requiring the combination of residency backed up by a minimum period of actual presence. But for citizenship purposes it would be far more complicated to apply than a strict presence test which, for all but the more extreme scenarios (like the PR living in Buffalo and commuting to the GTA), is stringent enough that practically the applicant must be a resident of Canada.

It is important for the applicable requirements to be capable of being reasonably managed by a bureaucracy like IRCC. But it is also important for the requirements to be reasonably clear to new immigrants so they can understand what they need to do to become citizens. The more complicated the requirements, the more confusion there is, the more errors there are made, the more applications can be subject to inconsistent outcomes, the more risk there is of abuses of discretion.

In any event, sure a naked physical presence test with no required residency is indeed at least a little weird, but not so weird to be problematic, and for sure it is way, way less problematic than the prior residency requirement sometimes-but-not-always subject to calculation based on days physically present requirement.
 

links18

Champion Member
Feb 1, 2006
2,009
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dpenabill said:
In any event, sure a naked physical presence test with no required residency is indeed at least a little weird, but not so weird to be problematic, and for sure it is way, way less problematic than the prior residency requirement sometimes-but-not-always subject to calculation based on days physically present requirement.
I concur that in practical terms it is unlikely that scenarios where someone qualifies for Canadian citizenship without ever being a "resident" of Canada--or resident in Canada for only part of the qualifying period--will be common, but under the terms of the current law and the forthcoming C-6, they appear to be possible. Now that it is pointed out, someone will probably try it, especially since I bet housing costs in Buffalo are much cheaper than anywhere on the other side of the Niagara River. ;D