Departure Order: Do I have a criminal record?

[trophy11]

About 6 years ago, I used to be a PR but was served with a departure order. My fingerprints were obtained. I left before the order came into force and verified my departure. Under the FOI act, the incident reflects exactly what happened and why I was given the order. There is no criminality.

However, the records show that my fingerprints were taken under "criminal fingerprint identification." This form is included in my FOI request but while it includes my biographic information, the criminal information parts are obviously empty. There is a TCN number but no FPS number. The form is C-216 which is used for criminal searches and charges.

Will my fingerprints show up on a criminal record search? I usually get taken to (the counter-terrorism) secondary (I've had bad luck with the USA even before the order so probably not related), but I've never been asked about this yet.

Do I have a criminal record? Do I have a police record? Am I likely to be questioned about this by other countries?

 

[Buletruck]

Having fingerprints on file doesn't necessarily constitute having a criminal record. To have a criminal record you would have to have been charged with a criminal offence and sentenced by the courts. If that didn't happen, then it's highly unlikely you have a criminal record. Will your fingerprints show up in a search....most likely. Will it show as criminal activity.....not as long as you haven't been formally convicted.
As for being pulled into secondary, there are probably a few factors behind that, the biggest having been given a departure order and having lost PR status.

Just my non legal trained opinion.

 

[trophy11]

Having fingerprints on file doesn't necessarily constitute having a criminal record. To have a criminal record you would have to have been charged with a criminal offence and sentenced by the courts. If that didn't happen, then it's highly unlikely you have a criminal record. Will your fingerprints show up in a search....most likely. Will it show as criminal activity.....not as long as you haven't been formally convicted.
As for being pulled into secondary, there are probably a few factors behind that, the biggest having been given a departure order and having lost PR status.

Just my non legal trained opinion.

My immigration consultant doesn't seem to think the secondary is because of what happened in Canada. I have visited the USA thrice--once before the order, and twice after. I was taken to secondary before the order; where as the next time a few months later, I had no problem. The third time last month, I was taken to secondary, but after a few generic questions, the officer apologized and admitted me. I get taken to the "counter-terrorism" secondary which is supposedly more intense but it probably has more to do with my nationality and age. The rest of my family who also received the orders have never had a problem. :/

I dug around a bit deeper. The RET (retention code) on my form is CAR N. Which means I was apparently fingerprinted for criminal reasons but without a charge being specified. They probably fingerprint suspects this way? That means that unless there is a match, they will not be retaining my fingerprints. It also says, the final authority to decide that lies with the officer.

Criminal Tenprint Submission Ret N (CAR) This transaction is a tenprint fingerprint search without a criminal charge being specified; therefore the fingerprint retention code has a value of ‘N’. It is the responsibility of the contributor to ensure that they have the legal authority to fingerprint the subject of the inquiry. Transactions may also be received to request identity for amnesia victims and unknown deceased and to report the death of an offender. This transaction is NOT to be used for civil screening purposes, summary offences or provincial statute offences.

This tag indicates whether the RCMP’s RTID System should retain the submitted fingerprint images and other demographic information. For transactions with a retention code = Y, the RCMP RTID System has the final retention decision regardless of the retention code setting. Transactions with a retention code = N are never retained. Each transaction has its own rules for determining the value of the retention code. “Y” or “N” are the only acceptable values for this tag.

CAR-N Criminal Inquiry

CAR-Non-Retain (or -Retain No) (i.e., information and fingerprint images associated with this submission will not be retained).

I guess they don't have my fingerprints on the AFIS.

 

[adt83]

My immigration consultant doesn't seem to think the secondary is because of what happened in Canada. I have visited the USA thrice--once before the order, and twice after. I was taken to secondary before the order; where as the next time a few months later, I had no problem. The third time last month, I was taken to secondary, but after a few generic questions, the officer apologized and admitted me. I get taken to the "counter-terrorism" secondary which is supposedly more intense but it probably has more to do with my nationality and age. The rest of my family who also received the orders have never had a problem. :/

I dug around a bit deeper. The RET (retention code) on my form is CAR N. Which means I was apparently fingerprinted for criminal reasons but without a charge being specified. They probably fingerprint suspects this way? That means that unless there is a match, they will not be retaining my fingerprints. It also says, the final authority to decide that lies with the officer.

I guess they don't have my fingerprints on the AFIS.

I'm not trying to burst your bubble... My husband was fingerprinted prior to receiving an exclusion order. We were asked to submit RCMP record as part of our sponsorship application. We submitted a request through a 3rd party company which was received by the RCMP on May 17th, and have yet to receive the results. There is no other instance why his fingerprints could/would be on file other than the exclusion order incident, and we therefore assume it produced a hit, hence why we're still here waiting almost 13 weeks later...

Hopefully your luck is better than ours It's a frustrating system- to have to wait so long for results without even being charged guilty for a crime. They say its because it takes so long to do the leg-work with different agencies where the prints originated from- but if the US can manage to do it in 10-12 weeks for it's citizens, why not Canada? Also, their estimation is equally frustrating. Up to or more than 120 days? I thought it couldn't be any vaguer, until I received a reply from the RCMP from a follow-up email we sent, saying it could exceed 120 business days (that's a much longer time than just 120 days)...

 

[trophy11]

I'm not trying to burst your bubble... My husband was fingerprinted prior to receiving an exclusion order. We were asked to submit RCMP record as part of our sponsorship application. We submitted a request through a 3rd party company which was received by the RCMP on May 17th, and have yet to receive the results. There is no other instance why his fingerprints could/would be on file other than the exclusion order incident, and we therefore assume it produced a hit, hence why we're still here waiting almost 13 weeks later...

Hopefully your luck is better than ours It's a frustrating system- to have to wait so long for results without even being charged guilty for a crime. They say its because it takes so long to do the leg-work with different agencies where the prints originated from- but if the US can manage to do it in 10-12 weeks for it's citizens, why not Canada? Also, their estimation is equally frustrating. Up to or more than 120 days? I thought it couldn't be any vaguer, until I received a reply from the RCMP from a follow-up email we sent, saying it could exceed 120 business days (that's a much longer time than just 120 days)...

Thank you for your reply. May I ask if your husband was ever arrested? Were the fingerprints were obtained at the time of removal or when the order was issued? Did your husband submit his fingerprints to CBSA for immigration purposes before? Did you submit your fingerprints electronically? These are the processing times for fingerprints matching: http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/processing-time-criminal-record-and-vulnerable-sector-checks

You could order your GCMS notes via the ATIP act. It takes about 4 weeks and they will have the information related to the exclusion including a physical copy of your husband's fingerprints and what workflow was used. Good luck.

It seems like they're only allowed to store your fingerprints if you have a deportation order:

Officers will be utilizing the CAR-Y workflow and when completing the “Demographic Entry - Statute of the Charge” section, the officer will select the IRPA authority from the dropdown menu. The officer will then select “Other” in the “Section Number and Wording” section and then enter “Removal – Deportation Order” in the “Charge Description 1”.

 

[adt83]

Thank you for your reply. May I ask if your husband was ever arrested? Were the fingerprints were obtained at the time of removal or when the order was issued? Did your husband submit his fingerprints to CBSA for immigration purposes before? Did you submit your fingerprints electronically? These are the processing times for fingerprints matching: http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/processing-time-criminal-record-and-vulnerable-sector-checks

You could order your GCMS notes via the ATIP act. It takes about 4 weeks and they will have the information related to the exclusion including a physical copy of your husband's fingerprints and what workflow was used. Good luck.

It seems like they're only allowed to store your fingerprints if you have a deportation order:

Thanks for the reply and the advice. That is interesting. If they aren't supposed to keep his prints, I'm curious to know what his report will say then. He was arrested by CBSA agents at his place of residence for overstaying. He was taken in, fingerprinted and held in custody until the exclusion order could be enforced. I'm not sure if he was required to submit his prints prior to all that for his work permit.

My husband is overseas, so he sent his prints to be digitized through The Fingerprint Room. Yes, I've kept a good eye on those processing times listed on the RCMP website, however, upon contacting them, they confirmed they received the prints on May 17th, and said with a match it "could exceed 120 BUSINESS days". As it has already been 90+ days, it's safe to say there was a match for some reason or another, we'll find out what the report says when it arrives.

While that's great advice - at this point, I'm not sure the GCMS notes will do us much good. We already have an interview scheduled with his visa office in October, and he is required to bring the report with him then, so we are just hoping and praying that the results arrive by then. Though with that all being said, they must already have all the details related to his exclusion order available to them already...

 

[PMM]

Hi

(Snip)

It seems like they're only allowed to store your fingerprints if you have a deportation order:[/QUOTE]

1. No, if you are fingerprinted by CBSA or the RCMP you fingerprints are kept on file.

 

[trophy11]

Hi

(Snip)

It seems like they're only allowed to store your fingerprints if you have a deportation order:

1. No, if you are fingerprinted by CBSA or the RCMP you fingerprints are kept on file.[/QUOTE]

Are you sure about that?

Transactions with a retention code = N are never retained.

CAR-Non-Retain (or -Retain No) (i.e., information and fingerprint images associated with
this submission will not be retained).

I know they retain fingerprints from visa applications and refugee claimants. I was still a PR when the fingerprints were taken and I was not arrested nor were any charges put up against me. I know the CBSA has my fingerprints in their enforcement file, but do they have them saved electronically searchable by the FBI? Is there any way to find out?

For example, routine immigration fingerprints won't show up on a criminal search. My fingerprints were taken on a criminal ID form. The FOSS personal data says N fingerprints, Y photograph.

 

[trophy11]

bump?

 

[adt83]

So... we received my husbands RCMP Record (it arrived Sept 1st)... and there was some interesting details...

With the record, there are two pages. The first of which is Police Information, where it is listed that he was ordered deported pursuant to sec 38 IRPA on Oct 16. However, on the 2nd page, are Outstanding Charges, where it states he was fingerprinted on Oct 13, and Ordered Deported on 2015-10-06 and underneath that it says "These charges are awaiting disposition." ?!?

It's confusing to me why this would still show up as an Outstanding Charge... Obviously, as he was in custody until the time of removal, and since CBSA agents put him on a plane, his exclusion order was executed. It was a one year order, and its been nearly 2 years now. My husband was never given a Certificate of Departure by CBSA agents, and was given only a copy of his Notice of Removal (BSF560)which he still has.

From what I've gathered here http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/enf/enf10-eng.pdf he should NOT have fingerprints on record from an exclusion order. However, I feel that in his case, perhaps a deportation order was made, so that an arrest warrant could be issued, and then the deportation order changed to an exclusion order.

 

[trophy11]

So... we received my husbands RCMP Record (it arrived Sept 1st)... and there was some interesting details...

With the record, there are two pages. The first of which is Police Information, where it is listed that he was ordered deported pursuant to sec 38 IRPA on Oct 16. However, on the 2nd page, are Outstanding Charges, where it states he was fingerprinted on Oct 13, and Ordered Deported on 2015-10-06 and underneath that it says "These charges are awaiting disposition." ?!?

It's confusing to me why this would still show up as an Outstanding Charge... Obviously, as he was in custody until the time of removal, and since CBSA agents put him on a plane, his exclusion order was executed. It was a one year order, and its been nearly 2 years now. My husband was never given a Certificate of Departure by CBSA agents, and was given only a copy of his Notice of Removal (BSF560)which he still has.

From what I've gathered here http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/enf/enf10-eng.pdf he should NOT have fingerprints on record from an exclusion order. However, I feel that in his case, perhaps a deportation order was made, so that an arrest warrant could be issued, and then the deportation order changed to an exclusion order.

That clears it up. Your husband was deported and not excluded. Does the notice of removal explicitly mention that this was an exclusion order for one year?

He was charged but those charges have not been proved in a court of law. Therefore disposition is pending--he hasn't been acquitted and may face a trial. I don't understand why there are three different dates.

 

[adt83]

That clears it up. Your husband was deported and not excluded. Does the notice of removal explicitly mention that this was an exclusion order for one year?

He was charged but those charges have not been proved in a court of law. Therefore disposition is pending--he hasn't been acquitted and may face a trial. I don't understand why there are three different dates.

He went to a hearing though, twice, while in custody with CBSA. The notice of removal indeed does explicitly mention that it is a one year exclusion order. He also has a letter that was signed by him and CBSA agents detailing the exclusion order and how it is a one year ban.

Again, my feeling is that a deportation order was issued, so that they could have a warrant executed legally by CBSA agents. However, once he was fingerprinted, pictured, and detained, and sent to his hearing, he was granted an exclusion order. I believe it is an administrative oversight and didn't properly close his file.