As you said it might be a good idea to collect data from this forum as see if there are people in similar situation. I tired to check in Mar 2019 sub forum to see if anyone is in a similar situation.
Delay being Outside Canada
- Thread starter rishisingh86
- Start date
It can be quite difficult to identify whether 2019 applicants are bogged down due to IRCC's failure to adequately deal with the impact of Covid-19 and the global pandemic, or whether there is an individual-specific issue affecting and stalling progress for the particular applicant.Wanted to check and just out of curiosity. Anyone here waiting for a decision on their citizenship and they are currently outside Canada?
I am a Mar 2019 applicant. Over 3 years since application. Completed my test and currently have language, physical presence and prohibitions in progress. I have sent multiple webform enquiries, gcms notes and still havnt received any updated on my status. The last update i got was in Nov 2021 asking for my passports.
The only thing is that I have moved out of Canada 6 months ago and I am wondering if it is impacting my application
2019 applicants appear to be encountering the worst of the delays due to Covid (I suspect, but do not know for sure, this is largely rooted in the timing relative to local office processing, the early impact of the pandemic hitting and for awhile totally disrupting processing just when those applications would have routinely gone through the final stages of processing -- as anyone who follows bureaucratic processing is well aware, once things go off the rails its a real mess getting things back on track).
GCMS notes are notoriously uninformative.
There are indications that applicants who are outside Canada for extended periods of time can encounter additional delays, including being at more risk for non-routine processing that can cause significant delays. But not all applicant-abroad scenarios are created equal and for many there is little or no delay. As I have attempted to illuminate in other discussions here, the actual risk for a particular applicant will depend on many other factors in that individual's situation, which can range from the underlying strength of the case (for example: obviously applicants who applied with very little buffer over the minimum presence requirement are at greater risk, whether abroad after applying or otherwise) to whether there are particular circumstances indicating reason-to-question-residency.
The more universal risk posed by being outside Canada is logistical: being sure to timely get IRCC communications (including paper mail), responding timely and appropriately, and appearing for scheduled events. The applicant who has moved to Detroit, Michigan tends to have less logistical risk for missing an interview or the oath than someone abroad in some more distant and particularly less stable parts of the world.
Note: notwithstanding some wishful thinking permeating many of the applicant-abroad discussions, the prospect of being allowed to take the oath while abroad remains REMOTE.
Meanwhile, the nature and scope of risk for non-routine processing delays for the applicant-abroad can only be quantified in very broad, ballpark generalities. Easy and safe to say that the less risk your application is at for non-routine processing generally, if say you remained in Canada, the less risk there is despite being abroad; conversely, the greater the risk your situation might trigger RQ-related requests even if you remained in Canada, the likelihood is that being abroad will increase that risk some, but it is basically impossible to quantify how much.
That is, overall, both in terms of logistical and procedural (non-routine processing) risks, staying in Canada entails less risk, being abroad increases the risks, but how much so is difficult to characterize let alone quantify.
Risk-Factors In the Particular Case:
This is probably the more pertinent assessment for you. Noting again, if the facts and circumstances of your case correspond to the vast majority of applicants, meaning low to very low risk of RQ-related non-routine processing, for example, the fact you are now abroad may increase your risk incrementally but probably not by a lot. In contrast, if there are facts and circumstances in your case which might suggest a reason-to-question-presence, you already have a higher risk, and being abroad can (and depending on other factors likely to some extent does) increase that risk.
The problem is that the criteria employed by IRCC to decide who will be subject to non-routine processing, including RQ-related requests or a referral to CBSA/NSSD for presence-related background investigation, is confidential. We know a fair amount about it based on a range of source material over the years, from a previously published description of reasons-to-question-residency before this information was made secret, to a leaked version of the File Preparation Template which included the specific triage-criteria employed at that time. Such detailed information, however, is significantly out-of-date.
For a time, for example, any travel outside Canada by an applicant reporting a period of unemployment automatically triggered RQ (self-employment and consultant work history likewise, at that time). That did not last long, as a stand-alone automatic trigger, but to what extent that combination continues to be a factor considered we do not know; probably some. Similarly, for a long time information indicating the applicant returned to Canada just in time to attend a scheduled event was an explicit reason-to-question-residency, triggering RQ, and here too it appears this no longer automatically triggers RQ-related requests, but probably is still considered -- just that we do not know how much influence it has (noting, too, its influence very likely varies in context with other circumstances in the individual case).
Which tends to take this back to the general observation: overall, staying in Canada entails less risk, being abroad increases the risks, but the main indicator of risk is the extent to which the facts and circumstances in the particular case suggest any reason-to-question-presence.
I mentioned some of the more obvious risk factors: applying with very little margin of presence over the minimum required for example.
Some refer to "frequent travel" as a particular risk factor, but a lot like the being-abroad factor, how frequent travel might influence IRCC processing, and whether RQ-related processing is triggered for example, can vary considerably. For many applicants frequent travel can actually make their case stronger (there are, after all, more definitively IN-Canada established dates). It is the pattern of travel that has more influence. And how that pattern corresponds to the applicant's work history.
All of which does not illuminate much about your particular case. It should illuminate, nonetheless, just how different individual cases can be despite having some very similar facts. And perhaps direct your attention to evaluating particular details in your case, ranging from how much of a buffer you applied with, to objectively assessing whether your overall pattern of travel, employment, and residence, as indicated in your application, shows a PR well-settled and established in Canada or a PR straddling a life in more than one country.
Leading, finally, to the where-to-from-here questions:
Obviously: deal with and make arrangements to minimize the logistical risks. Making sure your contact information works. Being prepared to obtain and respond to IRCC communications and requests timely.
And of course being able to travel to Canada as needed, which can be on quite short notice sometimes.
Which brings up the PR card. As I often make a concerted effort to emphasize, not all applicants are created equal. Many PRs applying for citizenship are able to easily travel via the U.S. If their PR card expires they can nonetheless fly to Seattle or Detroit or Buffalo and readily get back to Canada. Others need a PR Travel Document if the PR card expires, and the latter can take a considerable amount of time to obtain.
Whether to apply for a new PR card is not necessarily an easy question. For the PR abroad, applying for a new PR card can trigger secondary review and elevated scrutiny, even if the PR briefly visits Canada to properly make the PR card application from IN Canada, and this could have an impact on progress with the citizenship application.
And ultimately there is compliance with the PR Residency Obligation to deal with if there are very lengthy delays in processing the citizenship application. Six months abroad is hardly enough to raise an eyebrow. But if, for example, prior to moving abroad you were also spending fairly lengthy periods of time outside Canada, the thing to remember is that failing to comply with the RO can and typically will lead directly to a prohibition, meaning even if the oath has been scheduled it would be cancelled, no citizenship granted, and moreover keeping PR status itself would be at risk.
Is it likely you will encounter such a lengthy delay? Probably not unless your case is already at elevated risk for serious non-routine processing. You know your case, so you should have a fair idea of your risks. Biggest mistake many make in this regard is to focus on what favours their case. Better to be brutally objective, look for the weaknesses. And go from there, accordingly.
thank you for the detailed explanation dpenabill. so does that mean even if i complete my residency obligations, i can still be denied a pr card ?
Generally (with some possible exceptions) a PR card application is denied only if the individual has already lost PR status.
If you can return to Canada to make the PR card application and stay for awhile, that tends to make the PR card application go both more smoothly and faster.
As long as you stay in compliance with the Residency Obligation, PR status is safe. Worst case scenario tends to be delays in processing and requiring in-person pick-up for new PR card.
IRCC's information and instructions specify that a PR needs to be IN Canada to be eligible for a new PR card. However, this is not prescribed by either statute or regulation, so technically (and there are some official decisions to this effect), a PR application cannot be denied on the grounds that the individual is outside Canada or made the application while outside Canada. Beyond that those procedures get complicated. This has been discussed at length in the PR Obligations forum part of this website.
The most common (but it varies) procedure, when a PR is outside Canada, is to either issue a new PR card but limit delivery to in-person pick-up, or refer the PR card application for Secondary Review, which takes longer and if IRCC perceives the PR is abroad often if not usually likewise ends up requiring in-person pick-up. There have been some anecdotal reports of PR cards mailed to the address the PR is using in Canada, where the PR has trusted family or friend who will courier to the card abroad to the PR, but the more common outcome tends to require an in-person pick-up, sooner or later. (Note: in contrast, for first PR card, such as for a PR who has does a so-called soft-landing, mail delivery to address of family or friend in Canada typically works and they can courier card to PR abroad.)
If the PR's current card has expired, this usually means either traveling via the U.S. (if that works for the particular PR) or applying for a PR Travel Document.
As long as the PR is in compliance with the RO, a PR TD should be issued. Similarly for a PR who can and does travel via the U.S., as long as the PR is in compliance with the RO, even though their record is probably flagged for elevated screening upon arrival at the Port-of-Entry there should be no problem upon arrival.
The main problem many encounter is simply the risk of delays and if that happens, the extent of delays, which eventually, unless the PR is periodically traveling to Canada, can mean running out of time to stay in RO compliance.
thank you so much for your insights @dpenabill. It helps a lot. I believe i dont have any further options other than to wait. i was considering the writ of mandamus route but yet to find a good lawyer for it. My PR card will expire this year and i satisfy the ro requirements. . I applied for my citizenship in March 2019. i moved out of Canada in Oct 2021 as I am an international civil servant who is currently posted in US. I will try to make the application to renew my card.
@rishisingh86 As I said earlier, I wouldn’t change my plans based on what an anonymous person says. You need to get the data and go by what the data says.
When I said previously people jump on discussions on living outside Canada and make it unsuable, this user is among those. If you go back and check, this person strongly disapproves of people living outside Canada. You can also check this person’s history and confirm they have a very strong anti-American sentiment. They write generic posts about having a very bad experience living in the US without providing any specifics. US is a very large country - almost a continent - and this person’s experience is vastly inconsistent with 99% of people. For a lot of people on this forum, living outside Canada means living in the US. Every time someone talks about living outside, this person goes and scares the crap out of them because this person had a bad experience and couldn’t even fathom other people having a better experience. After seeing this person’s animosity towards the US as well as watching them going into threads like this and unnecessarily scaring the people (without putting any disclaimer on their dislike for the US), I’ve marked this user as ‘ignored’ so I haven’t read what they said about your PR renewal but I wouldn’t go by anything this person says. (I will also not read what this person says again, so I would advise against wasting their time responding to my post.)
All I would do is stay focused, collect the data from pre-COVID applicants (preferably on your monthly thread so you can avoid unserious people), pick about 5 serious fellow applicants with long delays and without any of those potential concerns like tax filing, criminal records etc and then share your contact info among that very small group. Having that group makes a huge difference in many ways because IRCC can find reasons for may be 1 or 2 but probably not all 5 in the group, you are also showing a pattern whether you are talking to an elected represntative or a judge, you can negotiate/share attorney fee for any legal action.
Basically, find a tight knit group that is serious and wont lose interest and then try every avenue possible.
First I would write collectively to elected reps, and the office of the immigration minister, detailing your wait and lack of progress. Again, showing instances of multiple delays in one place can be a powerful than these generic petitions going around recently. I fully expect them to close those generic petitions by saying its all related to COVID and they are working on it. @UnleashedFX thats why I also said OP can start with pre-COVID applicants first because as soon as COVID enters, they’ll say its all Covid. But I have no say in any of this, its all up to you and OP to collaborate and decide, but having a small group, personal connection and a shared incentive can go a long way. Again, make sure they are all established members and/or interested parties that applied around the same time as yours to avoid trolls.
After initial steps, you can decide among yourselves on talking to an attorney or going to media, filing ATIPs etc.
I have no doubt everyone in the system incl IRCC is working with good intent but if you have ever worked for a large organization and your request/application is lying forgotten in some database or an inbox, you need to bring attention to it. Waiting for close to/over 2 yrs, you deserve an update.
When I said previously people jump on discussions on living outside Canada and make it unsuable, this user is among those. If you go back and check, this person strongly disapproves of people living outside Canada. You can also check this person’s history and confirm they have a very strong anti-American sentiment. They write generic posts about having a very bad experience living in the US without providing any specifics. US is a very large country - almost a continent - and this person’s experience is vastly inconsistent with 99% of people. For a lot of people on this forum, living outside Canada means living in the US. Every time someone talks about living outside, this person goes and scares the crap out of them because this person had a bad experience and couldn’t even fathom other people having a better experience. After seeing this person’s animosity towards the US as well as watching them going into threads like this and unnecessarily scaring the people (without putting any disclaimer on their dislike for the US), I’ve marked this user as ‘ignored’ so I haven’t read what they said about your PR renewal but I wouldn’t go by anything this person says. (I will also not read what this person says again, so I would advise against wasting their time responding to my post.)
All I would do is stay focused, collect the data from pre-COVID applicants (preferably on your monthly thread so you can avoid unserious people), pick about 5 serious fellow applicants with long delays and without any of those potential concerns like tax filing, criminal records etc and then share your contact info among that very small group. Having that group makes a huge difference in many ways because IRCC can find reasons for may be 1 or 2 but probably not all 5 in the group, you are also showing a pattern whether you are talking to an elected represntative or a judge, you can negotiate/share attorney fee for any legal action.
Basically, find a tight knit group that is serious and wont lose interest and then try every avenue possible.
First I would write collectively to elected reps, and the office of the immigration minister, detailing your wait and lack of progress. Again, showing instances of multiple delays in one place can be a powerful than these generic petitions going around recently. I fully expect them to close those generic petitions by saying its all related to COVID and they are working on it. @UnleashedFX thats why I also said OP can start with pre-COVID applicants first because as soon as COVID enters, they’ll say its all Covid. But I have no say in any of this, its all up to you and OP to collaborate and decide, but having a small group, personal connection and a shared incentive can go a long way. Again, make sure they are all established members and/or interested parties that applied around the same time as yours to avoid trolls.
After initial steps, you can decide among yourselves on talking to an attorney or going to media, filing ATIPs etc.
I have no doubt everyone in the system incl IRCC is working with good intent but if you have ever worked for a large organization and your request/application is lying forgotten in some database or an inbox, you need to bring attention to it. Waiting for close to/over 2 yrs, you deserve an update.
Send email to this lady: naseem@mwlawgroup.ca
Her law company helped me in the mandamus route, and it was not expensive.
Being in the U.S., rather than elsewhere in the world, generally makes it easier, and perhaps a lot easier, for the applicant who has gone abroad.
Re Mandamus:
While a lawyer's demand that IRCC do what the law clearly mandates (the prerequisite for initiating a Federal Court action in Mandamus) sometimes appears to motivate or even compel IRCC to proceed with the next step in processing a citizenship application, there is far, far more to pursuing Mandamus, including whether it is worth even making the demand, than just how long the application has been in process. This really is rely-on-a-reputable-and-competent LAWYER territory. But it warrants noting that this is more or less a last-resort sort of recourse for cases in which it is apparent IRCC has essentially stopped or suspended processing without cause, and since processing is still deep in the wake of Covid-related disruptions and delays (as inordinate and inexcusable as much of this has been), currently it is especially difficult to know let alone establish that rather than just being bogged down in delays among scores and scores of other applications, that IRCC has stopped or suspended processing without cause.
Re "I am an international civil servant who is currently posted in US"
If you are employed by either a Federal or Provincial government body in Canada, or a connected organization, that would be a factor likely strengthening your case.
I am guessing, just a guess, that your employer is not Canadian. If so, how this could influence the process is difficult to discern but it warrants noting a couple salient aspects:
-- as long as you meet the grant citizenship requirements, the identity of your employer (both during the eligibility period as well as after applying) is not relevant; however,
-- employment history during the eligibility period (and to some extent also after applying, but much less so) can be a factor in decision-making affecting whether IRCC engages in additional non-routine screening, and if so the nature and scope of that
Since you have already taken the test, and based on the date you received the request for passport copies I infer that was last fall, odds are you would have already received any additional RQ-related requests IF your application was going to be subject to additional non-routine screening. This tends to indicate there is little or NO reason to worry about RQ, for example.
The window remains open by a small crack if your application is in queue for an interview. As I previously noted, GCMS notes are notoriously uninformative so it is hard to say whether "language" still "in progress" actually means your application is waiting on an interview to verify you meet the language requirements (note that the language-documentation submitted with the application only satisfies what is required to make a "complete" application; applicants will generally be examined or at least assessed as to the language requirement as part of the interview, if there is an interview). Generally, given how long ago your test was, if there was going to be an interview it would likely have been at least scheduled by now. But again the window for scheduling an interview remains open by a small crack, and if there is an interview whether there might be further RQ-related screening remains contingent, depending on what the interviewer decides following the interview. So, probably worth keeping your travel history, address history, work history, and related information and documentation handy just in case, to be prepared just in case there are any further requests for more information or documentation. No indication that will happen, but again the window remains open a crack.
Re My Biases (and lack thereof):
I am an open book (and a lengthy book). Unlike many of those who go out of their way to attack me, it is easy to peruse all that I post here; no limits on viewing my profile or posts.
It is true that I am not at all fond of that bellicose neighbour to our south. I have family living in Buffalo, N.Y., for example, and while Canada is not entirely immunized to the sort of thing that happened there this last week, it is not the fact of singular events like that which fuels my disdain and distrust, but the underlying social and political pugnacity permeating that country. I've been there, lived there for many decades, on both coasts and in-between. I sell what I do to American clients. I go back for family and friends. I carry a passport from there. But yep, I have rather little affection for the place, and quite a lot of apprehension.
In contrast, it is a blatant LIE that I am a person who "strongly disapproves of people living outside Canada." Just plain NOT true.
That is part of a persistent attack against me, which seems to be because I am honest about what can and what often does influence procedural decision-making related to if and when IRCC engages in RQ-related non-routine processing of citizenship applicants. My approach to the subject is objective and laser focused on how things actually work as best we can sort this stuff out. What those attacks ignore or at least dismiss is that the information I share should actually be helpful to citizenship applicants living outside Canada, as it is very much oriented to identifying the risks and how to be better prepared to proceed, especially if and when they are involved in RQ-related non-routine processing.
There is a reason for addressing this, and it goes back to recognizing how other factors can influence whether IRCC initiates elevated scrutiny and engages in additional non-routine screening of particular applicants. There is NO requirement to be employed to qualify for citizenship, for example, but the applicant's employment history can have a big impact on whether or not IRCC perceives a reason-to-question-residency (or presence). This is such an important factor that IRCC mandates ALL applicants account for their employment for the entire eligibility period, with NO gaps, including employment outside Canada, and for many applicants including employment before the applicant even came to Canada.
Mapping how this or that employment history will actually affect whether there is RQ, for example, is tricky. Much like mapping how living abroad after applying can affect whether there might be RQ. It's a complicated subject with many tangents, but some of the highlights are fairly easy to identify. One is that whether it is indicated in the work history or otherwise, substantial and continuing ties to a life outside Canada increases the risk that IRCC will take a more probing, closer look at the applicant. Some disagree it should work this way. It is not my fault that it does. Those potentially affected are wise to be prepared.
Single applicant. Applied in 2018. AOR in 2019, interview in 2020. Citizenship in 2022.
I had a history of frequent travel prior to arrival in Canada and during my eligibility period. My family qualified earlier and became citizens before I did. Applied with a significant margin of # of days to avoid any miscalculation errors. Travel history etc were 100% accurate without any errors. It tallied exactly with the report from the country I moved from.
Was self employed (contract positions) so no T4 / salary slips, even though I filed and paid taxes for all years. During the interview, which got a little argumentative, I got what would be called a RQ Lite. The interviewer's body language and choice of words could only be described as accusing and sarcastic. Before I could respond to the request for additional info, everything shut down for Covid. Finally took 2 years for the Physical Presence to be updated, even though I submitted the info asked within 60 days of interview.
All the wait must have been awful, glad to see you've finally completed the process.
It appears anytime the application deviates from the main processing stream, you're in for a long wait.
well i have progress in my application now....background changed from completed to in progress for the 3rd time during this whole process.
BG is valid for only 1 year so I guess they do it annually.
It happened finally, some movement! After countless web forms sent with no response I finally see an update today when I check my ECAS, they’ve scheduled me for an interview on June 13th. I am currently still outside Canada and have sent them emails asking if I can take oath from abroad several times when they requested my passport pages again in March.
Has anyone that’s given their test outside and still outside Canada given an interview?
What should I expect? Just trying to stay prepared so I am able to get this thing moving!
Has anyone that’s given their test outside and still outside Canada given an interview?
What should I expect? Just trying to stay prepared so I am able to get this thing moving!