Days to count working abroad

[dpenabill]

Hi I have Question in line with this one.
If I am hired by a Canadian Organisation specifically for projects outside Canada, then please help me understand the following:
1. Is it ok if i join the organisation and immediately start travelling outside Canada (and my travel days can be counted in my RO) ?
2. Whom do i need to inform in Advance to make those days count in my RO? As I am have only enough days to meet my RO if I stay in canada though out this time. Because every time i will come back to Canada I might be asked to question on my non fulfillment of RO.
- For e.g. If I stay in Chile for 5 months for a project and come back. Immigration officer will surely ask me that I am not fulfilling my PR obligation. how would I justify that my travel days can be counted towards my PR RO?
3. If my Spouse is with me in the country where my project is running. will she also qualify for the RO?

My PR card valid from 2012 to 2017 and I have only got 45 days stay in Canada as on date. may have stay complete next 2 years to complete my 730 days.

For your Information CANADIAN posting is a part for my negotiation to work for this global company. and becasue of my specialised skills they have agreed for CANADA posting however I need to keep travelling to various countries for Projects supervision.

Please help.
Thanks in advance.

These questions, as scylla's response suggests, are very difficult to answer in the abstract. My impression is in line with the observations by zardoz, particularly given that this does not appear to involve employment for a position IN Canada and a temporary assignment abroad with the intention of returning to a position IN Canada at the conclusion of the assignment abroad. (See section 6.5 in the Operational Manual ENF 23.)

I believe that if your employment abroad qualifies, then yes your spouse would also be entitled to the credit for time you are living together abroad for that employment. (But my impression is this employment may not qualify . . . )

While most of the focus in cases involving this question is about whether the employer is a qualified Canadian business, so long as it is a legitimate organization established in Canada (not a front sort of thing just to create the appearance of a business in Canada), with ongoing operations in Canada, and the office through which the employment is managed is in Canada, it is OK . . . and this employer appears to meet that criteria.

I disagree with the way zardoz describes the full time employment requirement . . . "full-time assignment to a permanent position overseas."

And in fact, the assignment must explicitly be a temporary assignment (or, as stated in the manual linked above, "assigned on a temporary basis to the work assignment"). The "full-time" employment requirement is more about the relationship between the employer and employee; again, as stated in the manual, the employee must be "assigned on a full-time basis as a term of their employment . . . to a position outside Canada with that business . . . " (and meet the other criteria).

Whether you can negotiate the terms of employment with this particular employer is of course up to that employer.

If you have a specific job offer, and it is one you are very interested in taking, you might want to invest in consulting with an immigration lawyer, one with whom you can discuss the explicit details, who the employer is, actual terms of employment, and so on.

But overall, frankly, if retaining Canadian PR status is important to you, finding a job in Canada seems like the most prudent thing to do.

 

[zardoz]

These questions, as scylla's response suggests, are very difficult to answer in the abstract. My impression is in line with the observations by zardoz, particularly given that this does not appear to involve employment for a position IN Canada and a temporary assignment abroad with the intention of returning to a position IN Canada at the conclusion of the assignment abroad. (See section 6.5 in the Operational Manual ENF 23.)

I believe that if your employment abroad qualifies, then yes your spouse would also be entitled to the credit for time you are living together abroad for that employment. (But my impression is this employment may not qualify . . . )

While most of the focus in cases involving this question is about whether the employer is a qualified Canadian business, so long as it is a legitimate organization established in Canada (not a front sort of thing just to create the appearance of a business in Canada), with ongoing operations in Canada, and the office through which the employment is managed is in Canada, it is OK . . . and this employer appears to meet that criteria.

I disagree with the way zardoz describes the full time employment requirement . . . "full-time assignment to a permanent position overseas."

And in fact, the assignment must explicitly be a temporary assignment (or, as stated in the manual linked above, "assigned on a temporary basis to the work assignment"). The "full-time" employment requirement is more about the relationship between the employer and employee; again, as stated in the manual, the employee must be "assigned on a full-time basis as a term of their employment . . . to a position outside Canada with that business . . . " (and meet the other criteria).

Whether you can negotiate the terms of employment with this particular employer is of course up to that employer.

If you have a specific job offer, and it is one you are very interested in taking, you might want to invest in consulting with an immigration lawyer, one with whom you can discuss the explicit details, who the employer is, actual terms of employment, and so on.

But overall, frankly, if retaining Canadian PR status is important to you, finding a job in Canada seems like the most prudent thing to do.

By full-time in a permanent position, I am excluding the concept of random consultancy and short-term, multi-country projects, rather than intending the nature of the assignment as being a permanent one. However, you make a valid point and I could have phrased it better.

 

[RajaRaja]

These questions, as scylla's response suggests, are very difficult to answer in the abstract. My impression is in line with the observations by zardoz, particularly given that this does not appear to involve employment for a position IN Canada and a temporary assignment abroad with the intention of returning to a position IN Canada at the conclusion of the assignment abroad. (See section 6.5 in the --Link removed--
I believe that if your employment abroad qualifies, then yes your spouse would also be entitled to the credit for time you are living together abroad for that employment. (But my impression is this employment may not qualify . . . )

While most of the focus in cases involving this question is about whether the employer is a qualified Canadian business, so long as it is a legitimate organization established in Canada (not a front sort of thing just to create the appearance of a business in Canada), with ongoing operations in Canada, and the office through which the employment is managed is in Canada, it is OK . . . and this employer appears to meet that criteria.

I disagree with the way zardoz describes the full time employment requirement . . . "full-time assignment to a permanent position overseas."

And in fact, the assignment must explicitly be a temporary assignment (or, as stated in the manual linked above, "assigned on a temporary basis to the work assignment"). The "full-time" employment requirement is more about the relationship between the employer and employee; again, as stated in the manual, the employee must be "assigned on a full-time basis as a term of their employment . . . to a position outside Canada with that business . . . " (and meet the other criteria).

Whether you can negotiate the terms of employment with this particular employer is of course up to that employer.

If you have a specific job offer, and it is one you are very interested in taking, you might want to invest in consulting with an immigration lawyer, one with whom you can discuss the explicit details, who the employer is, actual terms of employment, and so on.

But overall, frankly, if retaining Canadian PR status is important to you, finding a job in Canada seems like the most prudent thing to do.

Thanks for this detailed info specially for sharing the manual. I found that the job / and abroad assignment is inline with the rules. I think i was unable to clearly put across my case.However, I give you more detailed info on this and you may suggest based upon the information.

Here it goes:
Any mining project is generally last for 25-30 years. any any mine owner (e.g. let name it 'ABC' company) generally hires a Mining Consultant for the entire duration of Mining. Mining consultancy generaly has a group of Experts in different fields.

Now, My employer (XYZ company) gets a long term consultancy jobs (25 years contract) from ABC, XYZ-India inturn distribute the work to their world-wide offices (such as XYZ-Canada office) and pay them for all specific assignment. Now Canadian office assigns RAJARAJA to do that project (under a long term contract) broken into multiple intermitent 6 months assignments.

XYZ INDIA pays to XYZ CANADA for total assignment, for which XYZ- CANADA has deployed RAJARAJA (under a service contract) to the project site.

Now please advice if it will be counted as a long term assignment/ short terms assignment. and can this case be considered to prove RAJARAJA working abroad while parmanetly employed in CANADIAN Business.

 

[dpenabill]

As has been said, it is very difficult to assess this in the abstract . . . and notwithstanding the details you provide, the context is nonetheless largely more abstract than concrete.

Moreover, comments posted in a forum like this are NOT a reliable source of advice. I am no expert. Posts here should not be considered to be expert opinion or reliable advice. Many of us offer what we know and see with the hope it helps others . . . but that is about helping others to nonetheless figure things out for themselves . . . or hire a lawyer.

If you were already at a job in Canada and then assigned to a position abroad, there would be less risk in taking the assignment, especially if at the conclusion of the assignment you were going to return to a position working IN Canada.

The problem is that there is virtually no way to get a definitive answer unless and until you apply for a PR Travel Document . . . and if that goes against you, because CIC determines the employment does not qualify, it is too late then to fix.

A Canadian immigration lawyer, given the actual details, might offer a more reliable opinion (it would still be an opinion, not binding on CIC or CBSA).

As I said, if your Canadian PR is important to you, my sense is that the prudent thing to do would be to find a job where you will be working IN Canada. But that is just my sense. I cannot say for sure this will not meet CIC's criteria. It looks risky to me, particularly given the extent to which CIC has elevated the enforcement of the PR Residency Obligation in recent years and has, more particularly, taken a more strict approach to precisely the exception allowed for those working for a Canadian business abroad.

After all, looking at your situation and what you will be doing, and what you have done, what in this setup shows your life is rooted in Canada? Sure, if you meet the technical requirements for the exception, you will be allowed the exception . . . but if you are relying on meeting the technical requirements, you can expect CIC to scrutinize and assess compliance with all the technicalities rather strictly.

Ultimately the decision is yours. You are the one whose status is at stake. There are a number of Federal Court and IAD decisions in the last three years specifically about the employment abroad exception . . . and in fact section 6.5 in the manual, which I linked above, was fairly recently amended to incorporate some aspects of recent rulings. But trying to analyze this as a layperson is itself rather risky. Again, the decisions is yours to make, but personally the risks are enough that at the least I would get a Canadian lawyer's opinion (not a consultant's) before taking this job with the expectation it will suffice for meeting the PR Residency Obligation.

 

[scylla]

I agree with the above.

None of us here can tell you for sure if your time outside of Canada will count or not.

You can get advice from a lawyer - however ultimately CIC is the one who will decide if the time counts or not.

You cannot get something in advance from CIC that will guarantee the time will be counted. You'll only find out when you try to renew your PR status.

That's really what you have to work with to make this decision.

Good luck.

 

[Leon]

I have to agree with this too. CIC will decide if your time counts when you apply to renew your PR.

We can all say what we think and you can ask lawyers too but at the end of the day, if CIC decides that your time doesn't count, you'd have a problem.

 

[Dreamszalone]

Raja,

Go with books (See below) rather than peoples comment dont make decision on the others. I believe you will meet the residency requirement, you are going on a job assignment through your company and you are getting paid in Canada and also you are getting paid your Travel expenses and yes you can have your wife and kids with you while travelling and they can also claim those days while being with you, check the PR Renewal form it clearly says all the above. Just go-ahead and accept the job.

Section 28 of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act (IRPA) states:

28. (1) A permanent resident must comply with a residency obligation with respect to every five-year
period.

(2) The following provisions govern the residency obligation under subsection (1):

 (a) a permanent resident complies with the residency obligation with respect to a five-
year period if, on each of a total of at least 730 days in that five-year period, they are

 (iii) outside Canada employed on a full-time basis by a Canadian business or in
the federal public administration or the public service of a province,

 

[RajaRaja]

Thanks for advice.

to me it looks like this is good opportunity to go with ..I will also take opinion of a an immi. laywer to be double sure.

Thanks.

Regards