+1(514) 937-9445 or Toll-free (Canada & US) +1 (888) 947-9445

Correct pool model & decent statistical predictions for the next draws

kalyangriet

Full Member
Aug 26, 2014
49
1
Michau said:
OK, so now we are after 6 draws, we can create a decent statistical model of the pool based on the Express Entry spreadsheet.

We know (just like I predicted here: http://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/a-possibly-plausible-theory-about-the-number-of-people-in-the-pool-and-scores-t271152.0.html) that the first draws had unusual number of 600+ applicants due to errors, and this is now confirmed by many people who got 600 points added by CIC's mistake. So the results of first draws are really irrelevant and we should not look at them.

The last two draws give us much better information, and we can see from them that the current EE spreadsheet contains about 4-5% of the pool, just like the previous year's spreadsheet for FSW (nobody should be really surprised by that).

So let's build a statistical model based on the current Excel contents. We need the following parameters:

* The relation of the spreadsheet population to the real pool population, let's assume it being from 4.0% to 5.5%.

* The distribution of people scores. Let's take the list of all scores from the spreadsheet below 600 and it will give us a good score distribution between applicants; not a perfect one, but definitely good enough. Then there is also this +600 factor, we will take it into account by introducing a probability of someone receiving LMIA or PNP. In the spreadsheet, 48 people out of 974 have above 600 points so we assume that this probability of someone having LMIA/PNP is around 5%.

* The number of people in the pool on day 0 (which is today). The spreadsheet contains today 813 people without ITA (that is, below 453 points).

* The number of people being added to the spreadsheet daily. From March 1 to March 28 there were 174 new entries in the spreadsheet, this gives on average 6.2 new entries per day.

* The dates and counts of future draws. Nobody knows these of course, but let's assume 2 draws per month, 1600 people each - this looks like a good assumption based on the draws done in March, and also based on immigration targets for 2015.

That's all the assumptions we need. They are not very accurate yet, but at this point should be accurate enough to build a simple model. So this is the actual model parametrized (sorry it's a PHP code - I'm a Web designer ;) ):

http://pastebin.com/wEHvGwyB

What does the model tell us? Based on the assumed relation of the spreadsheet population to the real pool, we get the following results:

If the spreadsheet represents 5.5% of the pool:

April 1st draw: cutoff score = 437
April 2nd draw: cutoff score = 427
May 1st draw: cutoff score = 415
May 2nd draw: cutoff score = 409
June 1st draw: cutoff score = 400
June 2nd draw: cutoff score = 394
July 1st draw: cutoff score = 388
July 2nd draw: cutoff score = 384

If the spreadsheet represents 5.0% of the pool:

April 1st draw: cutoff score = 438
April 2nd draw: cutoff score = 429
May 1st draw: cutoff score = 419
May 2nd draw: cutoff score = 413
June 1st draw: cutoff score = 408
June 2nd draw: cutoff score = 401
July 1st draw: cutoff score = 396
July 2nd draw: cutoff score = 392

If the spreadsheet represents 4.5% of the pool:

April 1st draw: cutoff score = 439
April 2nd draw: cutoff score = 432
May 1st draw: cutoff score = 423
May 2nd draw: cutoff score = 417
June 1st draw: cutoff score = 412
June 2nd draw: cutoff score = 409
July 1st draw: cutoff score = 403
July 2nd draw: cutoff score = 399

If the spreadsheet represents 4.0% of the pool:

April 1st draw: cutoff score = 441
April 2nd draw: cutoff score = 435
May 1st draw: cutoff score = 428
May 2nd draw: cutoff score = 421
June 1st draw: cutoff score = 416
June 2nd draw: cutoff score = 413
July 1st draw: cutoff score = 411
July 2nd draw: cutoff score = 407

Personally I am leaning towards 4.5% - 5.0%. So that means that we should reach 400 around June/July.

Another interesting value is the final value when the draw score stabilizes. This is highly dependent on the ratio of new people added to the pool, to the number of people drawn, and this first parameter is derived from the spreadsheet and also not very accurate. But, just to give you a ballpark number, with the 5.0% spreadsheet-to-pool assumption, after two years (!) the model reaches somewhere around 360, and with the 4.5% assumption it reaches about 365. The actual stabilized score may be lower if the number of new people adding themselves to the pool will be dropping, or the number of people drawn will be higher than 3200-3300 per month as we see now. But generally I would say looking at these first approximations, that people above 360 should finally get their ITAs, though the wait may be really long.
Good analysis!!

But I would like to ask question on whether CIC's target of 1 lakh+ ITAs to be issued in this year has been taken in to consideration. Going at this pace, do you think CIC will be able to meet its target?
 

preeti.msingh109

Hero Member
Jul 18, 2014
435
19
gmduncanidaho said:
Thanks :) I was thinking the same, expecting an invitation end of April or May for sure (Score is going down on April 15 also my work permit is expiring the same day -worst birthday ever). I explained this to him as well.

He sounded like he had gotten the last draw's information. He said he doesn't expect the score to go lower than 450, they are only inviting LMIAs and "geniuses". He said, and I'm quoting his exact words here, that "the new system is bull****" and when they invite people with 750 points, they are inviting "****" (the previous censored word without the bull part) and leaving people like me out.
He still said I hope you are right and I'm wrong, but he sounded pretty sure that a drop won't happen anytime soon. I guess we'll see what happens end of April. It all depends on the amount of LMIAs and PNPs issued within the next few weeks.
Hw much points wwill u lose? N did ur lawyer predict any scores before? Did any of his predictions come true...These kind of ppl simply demotivate thinkng they r gvng us a reality chk
 

gmduncanidaho

Star Member
Jan 28, 2015
50
4
Category........
Visa Office......
Ottawa
NOC Code......
2171
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
Jan 2
Doc's Request.
Jan 14 & Jan 24
AOR Received.
Jan 2
preeti.msingh109 said:
Hw much points wwill u lose? N did ur lawyer predict any scores before? Did any of his predictions come true...These kind of ppl simply demotivate thinkng they r gvng us a reality chk
No he didn't make any predictions before. But I know he had EE applicants who received an ITA (he had clients with LMIA). He is also a very well known lawyer in here so I expect that he knows what he's talking about.
I'm going to lose 5 points on my birthday so I believe my score will go down to 426 unless age has an effect on other factors as well, which I'm not really sure about
 

Engineer2133

Full Member
Feb 19, 2015
44
0
Category........
Visa Office......
London
NOC Code......
2133
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
01-12-2014
IELTS Request
Sent with application
Excellent analysis. Thanks for sharing this. This is the only most practical analysis I've seen up till now
 

preeti.msingh109

Hero Member
Jul 18, 2014
435
19
gmduncanidaho said:
No he didn't make any predictions before. But I know he had EE applicants who received an ITA (he had clients with LMIA). He is also a very well known lawyer in here so I expect that he knows what he's talking about.
I'm going to lose 5 points on my birthday so I believe my score will go down to 426 unless age has an effect on other factors as well, which I'm not really sure about
ok...still u shall get it dnt wry..nt much of a difference...m sure next draw cut off would be lower than 450...it is gng to touch 400 atleast thts for sure,...plz hit ur lawyer once if it goes below 450...*demotivating jerks*
 

Michau

Star Member
Feb 18, 2015
80
17
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
kalyangriet said:
But I would like to ask question on whether CIC's target of 1 lakh+ ITAs to be issued in this year has been taken in to consideration. Going at this pace, do you think CIC will be able to meet its target?
The model expects about 38000 ITAs per year.

The CIC targets for Express Entry 2015 are 47000-51000 FSW and 21000-23000 CEC, plus a small part of PNP will go through Express Entry as well (maybe ~ 5000?). So that makes about 73000-79000 people. Compared to the model, that would make 2 people per 1 ITA, which seems just right (some people in the pool are single, but some have spouses and children, so 2 looks like a good average).
 

Michau

Star Member
Feb 18, 2015
80
17
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
rojiv94 said:
Sorry, but I must say, all persons follows this thread are pessimists.
Sorry, but I must say you don't seem to grasp the distinction between scientific modeling and gut feelings. A "pessimist" is somebody who believes things will turn out wrong because that's his unfounded belief. An "optimist" is somebody who believes things will turn our allright because that's his unfounded belief. I am neither of these, and so aren't people who participate in this thread. We create models based on the facts as they are, not on our wishes how we would like the facts to be.

The model presented here may as well turn out totally wrong, but if that happens, it won't be because anyone was "pessimist" or "optimist", but because the limited data we have from the last two draws would turn out insufficient to reflect the reality. In that case, we will improve the model so that it reflects the reality better. That's how science works, as opposed to wishful thinking.

And, with regard to pessimism/optimism, a wise man once said, "I would rather confront a painful truth than be comforted by a lie" :)
 

DesireCA

Star Member
Apr 25, 2014
143
10
Karachi
Visa Office......
London
NOC Code......
2253, CRS-432
App. Filed.......
Not Yet
gmduncanidaho said:
I spoke with an immigration lawyer today and he said I should expect an ITA in September or October with my current score (431)
No offense please, lawyers are the biggest liars. They are just doing their business and making money.
 

rubyracer

Star Member
Sep 4, 2014
85
4
Michau said:
Sorry, but I must say you don't seem to grasp the distinction between scientific modeling and gut feelings. A "pessimist" is somebody who believes things will turn out wrong because that's his unfounded belief. An "optimist" is somebody who believes things will turn our allright because that's his unfounded belief. I am neither of these, and so aren't people who participate in this thread. We create models based on the facts as they are, not on our wishes how we would like the facts to be.

The model presented here may as well turn out totally wrong, but if that happens, it won't be because anyone was "pessimist" or "optimist", but because the limited data we have from the last two draws would turn out insufficient to reflect the reality. In that case, we will improve the model so that it reflects the reality better. That's how science works, as opposed to wishful thinking.

And, as a wise man once said, "I would rather confront a painful truth than be comforted by a lie" :)
Well said.
 

CanadianDreams419

Full Member
Mar 26, 2015
39
2
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
gmduncanidaho said:
Thanks :) I was thinking the same, expecting an invitation end of April or May for sure (Score is going down on April 15 also my work permit is expiring the same day -worst birthday ever). I explained this to him as well.

He sounded like he had gotten the last draw's information. He said he doesn't expect the score to go lower than 450, they are only inviting LMIAs and "geniuses". He said, and I'm quoting his exact words here, that "the new system is bull****" and when they invite people with 750 points, they are inviting "****" (the previous censored word without the bull part) and leaving people like me out.
He still said I hope you are right and I'm wrong, but he sounded pretty sure that a drop won't happen anytime soon. I guess we'll see what happens end of April. It all depends on the amount of LMIAs and PNPs issued within the next few weeks.

I read rumors of 425 ...don't know the details but it's counterintuitive to stop at 450 or 425. Why let all of us into the pool only to put a minimum higher. It doesn't make sense to waste all these people's time. If they only wanted 450s and above they would not have allowed some of us in (I'm at 419). For now it's all speculation let's see what next draw brings.
 

shrinivas1980

Hero Member
Oct 1, 2013
438
15
Category........
Visa Office......
NDVO
NOC Code......
2211
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
rojiv94 said:
Totally wrong assumptions. Very poor. -1 for you
Sorry, but I must say, all persons follows this thread are pessimists.
Well said rojiv.....I totally agree with you. Pessimistic, very pessimistic approach............many points, while building this model have been ignored. All the assumptions can totally turn wrong. We really don't know what will be the number of ITAs issued in the upcoming draws. Number can hover around 1600-1700 or it can be a bigger one ~ 3000-4000. Author is assuming different representative values e.g. 5.5/5/4.5%. It can be lesser or greater also.

Unfortunately, I am again predicting :p .
 

shrinivas1980

Hero Member
Oct 1, 2013
438
15
Category........
Visa Office......
NDVO
NOC Code......
2211
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
Engineer2133 said:
Excellent analysis. Thanks for sharing this. This is the only most practical analysis I've seen up till now
But, with the loop-holes. Still, a great effort!
 

Karolis

Star Member
Feb 19, 2015
88
6
Well before judging the model lets just wait and see how the next draws unfold and what is the prediction error. Also, if you are not happy with the assumptions model is flexible enough to enter your own assumptions that will generate prediction based on what you believe. :)
 

Michau

Star Member
Feb 18, 2015
80
17
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
shrinivas1980 said:
We really don't know what will be the number of ITAs issued in the upcoming draws. Number can hover around 1600-1700 or it can be a bigger one ~ 3000-4000.
That is true, we don't know the number of ITAs in the next draws. However, we have seen a pattern of bimonthly draws with 1600-1700 ITAs each and it is reasonable to expect such draws in the future, because this number of ITAs corresponds very nicely with the immigration targets set for 2015 as I explained here:

http://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/correct-pool-model-decent-statistical-predictions-for-the-next-draws-t276999.0.html;msg4179301#msg4179301

So I find it very unlikely that they would be drawing more than 3200-3300 people per month.