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CJ meeting, applied in June 2012

beeza

Full Member
Jun 23, 2016
22
0
Hello All,

I have an upcoming meeting with a CJ which likely means they see reason to deny me. Here is a list of items I have or do not have as proof of actual physical presence in Canada

Records of Employment - Have
Lease Agreements - Do Not Have (I have tried getting a hold of old landlords but this is proving to be very difficult)
Emails regarding local activity such as selling/buying on kijiji or craigslist, interac email money transfers - Have
Car loan documents - Have
Bank statements - Have
College transcript - Have

I know not having lease agreements is damning but various documents do have my address listed on them. What other types of documents would be beneficial? I have a lot of stuff that shows I was in Canada for more than the required 1095 days.

Would it help if I could get a signed statement by a few people who knew me in the area such as local business owners or professionals such as engineers?
 

quasar81

Hero Member
Feb 27, 2014
464
52
Sorry, I can be of lil guidance but I suggest take those(signed declaration of some kind of know aquitances, possibly citizens) with you as well.

Irrespective, what a shame on system 2012 case being heard in 2016. Shame on CIC.
 

mwabu1976

Full Member
Mar 10, 2014
48
4
Do you have your passports and Canada Border service report? I think these are important.

I applied on Sep 2010 and my application is still not finished. I was waiting for CJ hearing for 3 years. And went too Federal court. It is long story..
 

beeza

Full Member
Jun 23, 2016
22
0
mwabu1976 said:
Do you have your passports and Canada Border service report? I think these are important.

I applied on Sep 2010 and my application is still not finished. I was waiting for CJ hearing for 3 years. And went too Federal court. It is long story..
I have tried so many times to get it and I never get anything. It is so frustrating. Same with my provincial health records
 

beeza

Full Member
Jun 23, 2016
22
0
So here is an update:

I just submitted yet again another request for my border entry/exit records.

I am giving up on the Provincial Health Records

I still cannot get copies of rental agreements problem is a couple places my name wasn't on the lease and the other two I cannot reach the landlords as one moved to Dubai and sold the house (email from current owner) and the other landlords email no longer works, I get an email immediately back notifying that it is not sendable.

I have proof of my different addresses in the following manner:

shipments from Ebay or other
address listed on various things such as records of employment, car loan
address mentioned in email or on facebook, I've taken screen shot which has the dates

Presence in Canada/Ties to Canada

Records of Employment
Bank Records
Car Loan
Orders being sent to my house
Kijiji ads I had or Kijiji ads I replied to
A lot of photos with friends which have dates and sometimes are recognizable locations around the city
Signed document for my longest employer in Canada stating I was in the province
College Transcript
Lots and Lots of other various emails such as send resume for job posting online

As for my border crossings fiasco:

I lost my passport and PR card in 2010 and did not get a new US passport until 2012 which means I was either stuck inside Canada or outside Canada
I have dated proof of my lost passport, I found a facebook status with date, a conversation with date mentioning I lost it both dated in 2010. Then I have a email from 2012 stating my appointment with the US consulate in Toronto then another emailing notifying me my passport is at the Toronto US consulate. I know this is not the greatest but it at least helps in showing I was in Canada between those two dates because I would have not been able to get back into Canada in 2010 after losing my passport.
 

frege

Hero Member
Jun 13, 2012
953
29
Category........
Visa Office......
Paris
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
01-05-2012
AOR Received.
none
File Transfer...
01-08-2012
Med's Done....
02-12-2011
Interview........
none
Passport Req..
28-11-2012 (copy only)
VISA ISSUED...
05-12-2012
LANDED..........
15-12-2012
beeza said:
Hello All,

I have an upcoming meeting with a CJ which likely means they see reason to deny me. Here is a list of items I have or do not have as proof of actual physical presence in Canada

Records of Employment - Have
Lease Agreements - Do Not Have (I have tried getting a hold of old landlords but this is proving to be very difficult)
Emails regarding local activity such as selling/buying on kijiji or craigslist, interac email money transfers - Have
Car loan documents - Have
Bank statements - Have
College transcript - Have

I know not having lease agreements is damning but various documents do have my address listed on them. What other types of documents would be beneficial? I have a lot of stuff that shows I was in Canada for more than the required 1095 days.

Would it help if I could get a signed statement by a few people who knew me in the area such as local business owners or professionals such as engineers?
Hello Beeza,

Since you applied before 2015, you don't need to prove intent to reside in Canada. Focus on proving that you meet the residency requirement of three years out of the four before 2012.

I think one question you should definitely be asking the more experienced members here - I don't know the answer to it - is whether during the 2010-2012 period PRs entering Canada were systematically recorded by the CBSA. If so, then that would prove that you didn't leave Canada during that period, since your new US passport was issued in Toronto. In that case, make sure you have a reliable published source that shows that CBSA did this and be prepared to make this argument explicitly to the judge. Unfortunately, this will not help you with the period from before your previous entry into Canada for which you're missing stamps, so you will need to rely on other documentation.

Given the elaborate lengths to which some fraudsters go to falsely demonstrate residency in Canada, an e-mail to a friend about losing your passport is not likely to be given very much weight if you are not otherwise found to be credible. Unfortunately, not bringing documents which you were asked to bring, and which you don't have a good explanation for not bringing, will leave the judge a lot of discretion about whether they find you credible or not. If the judge decides you're not, then your documentary evidence like records of employment, transcripts and credit card statements become all the more important, and those things will need to prove sufficient presence on their own.

I'm uncertain of whether the matter of proving that you still meet the PR requirement could come up, but be prepared in case it does. Under Harper, CIC seemed to have a practice of dragging out applications when they thought they would be able to get someone to lose PR that way. I don't know if that happens much these days, but you still need to meet the PR requirement when you take the oath. So the more time you spend in Canada before your PhD starts, the less likely it is you'll have a problem, depending on the timing of your 730 days.

You might be interested in reading appeal cases to get a sense of what is important to citizenship judges. Search decisions on Canlii with the search term "citizenship judge". I don't know how representative appeal cases are of all cases heard by a citizenship judge, but they are likely to be instructive. They will also give you an idea of how likely you'd be to succeed if you had to appeal to the Federal Court.

In the unlikely event that you are denied citizenship and eventually lose your PR, it seems plausible that a person with a PhD would be able to return, either in an economic class federally or under a provincial immigration program, or with a work permit after being offered a job by an employer. This is particularly the case for US citizens in NAFTA-approved professions (including "mathematician" and "college professor"). See http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/tools/temp/work/international/nafta.asp
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,436
3,183
beeza said:
I have an upcoming meeting with a CJ which likely means they see reason to deny me. Here is a list of items I have or do not have as proof of actual physical presence in Canada . . .


I lost my passport and PR card in 2010 and did not get a new US passport until 2012 which means I was either stuck inside Canada or outside Canada
I have dated proof of my lost passport, I found a facebook status with date, a conversation with date mentioning I lost it both dated in 2010. Then I have a email from 2012 stating my appointment with the US consulate in Toronto then another emailing notifying me my passport is at the Toronto US consulate. I know this is not the greatest but it at least helps in showing I was in Canada between those two dates because I would have not been able to get back into Canada in 2010 after losing my passport.
Best that can be offered is to Lawyer-up, but to be frank, it is probably too late for that, and too late in general to be putting your case together. Many of your explanations are not good, and the kind of evidence you are referring to might help fill in a small gap here and there but not more than that. Absence of a passport imposes a huge hurdle. You have problems. A lawyer might be able to help but there is no guarantee of that, and no time to get one before the hearing.

Moreover, what really matters at this stage is what evidence, what actual documentation you timely submitted in response to RQ.



Note what I previously posted in response to your queries in another topic (partial quote):

dpenabill said:
At this stage there is nothing to lose. Personally I would have a lawyer by now but many do not. If you are turned down because you did not apply with 1095 days, or the CJ does not conclude you have proven you were present for at least 1095 days (matter less whether you actually were present for 1095+ days, and much more whether you proved it . . . it is your burden to prove it, and IRCC and the CJ have no obligation to determine how many days you were actually in Canada, but only to assess the evidence submitted to determine whether you met your burden of proving it), you do not become a citizen. That has no effect on your PR status. To keep PR status you still need to comply with the PR RO. That could be difficult attending a full time PhD program abroad.

Beyond that, some further observations:

You have had difficulty obtaining provincial records showing utilization of heath care? Really? The process is so simple that it is highly unlikely a Citizenship Judge will buy this excuse. And unless you were using provincially provided health care a lot, these records are not likely to help all that much anyway.

In any event, again, it is rather late to be compiling evidence in support of your case. Your opportunity to submit documentation to prove you met the residency obligation was in responding to RQ.

It is too complicated to get into the nuances of being prepared for a CJ hearing this morning, but the bottom-line is, if you did not make a strong case in a response to RQ showing presence and activity in Canada for all the months you declared you were in Canada, the odds are probably not good or perhaps even much worse.

A lost passport is a serious problem. Burden of proof is on you. Failure to bring forward and submit an important item of documentary evidence, like a passport covering a period of time, makes meeting your burden of proof difficult. Basically you needed (in the response to RQ) to have submitted strong proof of actual presence and activity in Canada for any time period for which the lost passport is potentially relevant.

Kind of like a prosecutor who does not have the murder weapon in a homicide trial: not absolutely necessary to put the murder weapon into evidence, but without it the jury is going to have a lot of questions, even doubts, unless the prosecution makes up for it with other evidence and there is a reasonable, credible reason the prosecutor has to give to the jury about why this evidence is not available.

"I lost it." No matter how true that is, it's a weak explanation. Police report from time you discovered it was lost would help some. Still would be a problem.

Regarding this: "I lost my passport and PR card in 2010 and did not get a new US passport until 2012 which means I was either stuck inside Canada or outside Canada . . . [email with consulate] helps in showing I was in Canada between those two dates because I would have not been able to get back into Canada in 2010 after losing my passport."

Ouch. Ouch. No. Not at all. Makes little or no sense. Really, trust me on this, especially back in 2010 and 2011. No one is going to buy that not having a passport proves you did not cross the U.S and Canada border.

By the way, U.S. citizens do not need to show a passport to enter Canada. It is preferred, but in addition to other forms of enhanced identification, and especially so back in 2010, one could enter Canada with virtually any formal form of identification . . . this was true for both U.S. citizens and Canadian PRs. In fact, in my own experience it was not until later in 2010 that the border officers began requiring me to display identification every time I drove into Canada . . . before that I was only sporadically asked for identification (going the other way, into the States, they began requiring identification every time a couple years earlier than that, for me anyway, and they have been far more insistent, but not always, about having at least an enhanced form of identification).


For what it is worth:

Unless the documentation you have already submitted clearly showed regular employment in Canada for a large part of the period of time you claim you were in Canada, and included CRA documents (Notices of Assessment; T-4s), it is my impression your odds of a favourable decision are not at all good. The rest of the stuff you say you "have" (without referencing what was submitted in response already) does not add up to a whole lot if there are significant periods of time not documented as employed during which you have little direct evidence to show your stake in the place you lived (rental, roommate, or whatever).

As I said before, so long as you are truthful and do not engage in any misrepresentations by omission, there is nothing to lose in going to the hearing and making as good a case as you can (and sure, truthful statements from others might help, although it appears you need a lot more help than that). But I suspect you might as well look to the future anticipating you will not be getting citizenship now and making future plans based on whether it is worth your while to preserve your PR status.
 

beeza

Full Member
Jun 23, 2016
22
0
dpenabill said:
Best that can be offered is to Lawyer-up, but to be frank, it is probably too late for that, and too late in general to be putting your case together. Many of your explanations are not good, and the kind of evidence you are referring to might help fill in a small gap here and there but not more than that. Absence of a passport imposes a huge hurdle. You have problems. A lawyer might be able to help but there is no guarantee of that, and no time to get one before the hearing.

Moreover, what really matters at this stage is what evidence, what actual documentation you timely submitted in response to RQ.



Note what I previously posted in response to your queries in another topic (partial quote):


Beyond that, some further observations:

You have had difficulty obtaining provincial records showing utilization of heath care? Really? The process is so simple that it is highly unlikely a Citizenship Judge will buy this excuse. And unless you were using provincially provided health care a lot, these records are not likely to help all that much anyway.

In any event, again, it is rather late to be compiling evidence in support of your case. Your opportunity to submit documentation to prove you met the residency obligation was in responding to RQ.

It is too complicated to get into the nuances of being prepared for a CJ hearing this morning, but the bottom-line is, if you did not make a strong case in a response to RQ showing presence and activity in Canada for all the months you declared you were in Canada, the odds are probably not good or perhaps even much worse.

A lost passport is a serious problem. Burden of proof is on you. Failure to bring forward and submit an important item of documentary evidence, like a passport covering a period of time, makes meeting your burden of proof difficult. Basically you needed (in the response to RQ) to have submitted strong proof of actual presence and activity in Canada for any time period for which the lost passport is potentially relevant.

Kind of like a prosecutor who does not have the murder weapon in a homicide trial: not absolutely necessary to put the murder weapon into evidence, but without it the jury is going to have a lot of questions, even doubts, unless the prosecution makes up for it with other evidence and there is a reasonable, credible reason the prosecutor has to give to the jury about why this evidence is not available.

"I lost it." No matter how true that is, it's a weak explanation. Police report from time you discovered it was lost would help some. Still would be a problem.

Regarding this: "I lost my passport and PR card in 2010 and did not get a new US passport until 2012 which means I was either stuck inside Canada or outside Canada . . . [email with consulate] helps in showing I was in Canada between those two dates because I would have not been able to get back into Canada in 2010 after losing my passport."

Ouch. Ouch. No. Not at all. Makes little or no sense. Really, trust me on this, especially back in 2010 and 2011. No one is going to buy that not having a passport proves you did not cross the U.S and Canada border.

By the way, U.S. citizens do not need to show a passport to enter Canada. It is preferred, but in addition to other forms of enhanced identification, and especially so back in 2010, one could enter Canada with virtually any formal form of identification . . . this was true for both U.S. citizens and Canadian PRs. In fact, in my own experience it was not until later in 2010 that the border officers began requiring me to display identification every time I drove into Canada . . . before that I was only sporadically asked for identification (going the other way, into the States, they began requiring identification every time a couple years earlier than that, for me anyway, and they have been far more insistent, but not always, about having at least an enhanced form of identification).


For what it is worth:

Unless the documentation you have already submitted clearly showed regular employment in Canada for a large part of the period of time you claim you were in Canada, and included CRA documents (Notices of Assessment; T-4s), it is my impression your odds of a favourable decision are not at all good. The rest of the stuff you say you "have" (without referencing what was submitted in response already) does not add up to a whole lot if there are significant periods of time not documented as employed during which you have little direct evidence to show your stake in the place you lived (rental, roommate, or whatever).

As I said before, so long as you are truthful and do not engage in any misrepresentations by omission, there is nothing to lose in going to the hearing and making as good a case as you can (and sure, truthful statements from others might help, although it appears you need a lot more help than that). But I suspect you might as well look to the future anticipating you will not be getting citizenship now and making future plans based on whether it is worth your while to preserve your PR status.
I need dates June 2008-June 2012

I have records of employment/paystubs/tax documents/car loan/college transcript/bank records covering the entirety of those dates

I can thoroughly show I was in Canada on those dates
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,436
3,183
beeza said:
I need dates June 2008-June 2012

I have records of employment/paystubs/tax documents/car loan/college transcript covering the entirety of those dates
What you submitted in response to the RQ is more important than what you "have."

If you already submitted objective documentation showing substantial activity in Canada for each and every month you reported being in Canada, that may suffice to overcome the lost passport issue.

If what you submitted at least comes close to documenting activity in every month and you can go to the hearing with additional objective evidence to fill in the gaps, that might suffice.

But you are going to a hearing because IRCC has, in effect, already concluded you did not meet the burden of proving you met the qualifications for citizenship. Now you get an opportunity to persuade a Citizenship Judge otherwise. While the CJ hearing is not really an appeal, in some respects it is akin to an administrative appeal, IRCC having made its decision, against you, and now that decision will be reconsidered by a Citizenship Judge.

Evidence of car loans and explanations like it is not possible to travel in and out of Canada without a passport will not do the job.

Any new evidence, any evidence not previously submitted, will inherently be subject to questions about why it was not submitted before . . . even if this question is not overtly asked, and indeed it is likely it will not be overtly asked, but it will nonetheless haunt if not undermine the persuasiveness of whatever evidence you bring to the hearing which was not previously submitted.

Again, best to go to the hearing (for sure and indeed it would not be good to miss it, as that could effect assessment of your compliance with the PR Residency Obligation in the future). You will have an opportunity to persuade the CJ to your favour. Odds are not good but you might as well do the best you can and hope for a positive outcome. But for purposes of personal planning, you should anticipate being denied, not getting citizenship at this time. And thus, if you want to continue to be a Canadian PR, you will need to take care to continue to comply with the PR Residency Obligation.
 

beeza

Full Member
Jun 23, 2016
22
0
dpenabill said:
What you submitted in response to the RQ is more important than what you "have."

If you already submitted objective documentation showing substantial activity in Canada for each and every month you reported being in Canada, that may suffice to overcome the lost passport issue.

If what you submitted at least comes close to documenting activity in every month and you can go to the hearing with additional objective evidence to fill in the gaps, that might suffice.

But you are going to a hearing because IRCC has, in effect, already concluded you did not meet the burden of proving you met the qualifications for citizenship. Now you get an opportunity to persuade a Citizenship Judge otherwise. While the CJ hearing is not really an appeal, in some respects it is akin to an administrative appeal, IRCC having made its decision, against you, and now that decision will be reconsidered by a Citizenship Judge.

Evidence of car loans and explanations like it is not possible to travel in and out of Canada without a passport will not do the job.

Any new evidence, any evidence not previously submitted, will inherently be subject to questions about why it was not submitted before . . . even if this question is not overtly asked, and indeed it is likely it will not be overtly asked, but it will nonetheless haunt if not undermine the persuasiveness of whatever evidence you bring to the hearing which was not previously submitted.

Again, best to go to the hearing (for sure and indeed it would not be good to miss it, as that could effect assessment of your compliance with the PR Residency Obligation in the future). You will have an opportunity to persuade the CJ to your favour. Odds are not good but you might as well do the best you can and hope for a positive outcome. But for purposes of personal planning, you should anticipate being denied, not getting citizenship at this time. And thus, if you want to continue to be a Canadian PR, you will need to take care to continue to comply with the PR Residency Obligation.
Can't remember everything that I sent with my RQ because it was in 2013. But What I do recall is

Bank Records
Pay Stubs
Records of Employment
CRA Tax return for the years 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012
College Transcript
Osap records
I believe there were other documents as well but I cannot think of what.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,436
3,183
beeza said:
Can't remember everything that I sent with my RQ because it was in 2013. But What I do recall is

Bank Records
Pay Stubs
Records of Employment
CRA Tax return for the years 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012
College Transcript
Osap records
I believe there were other documents as well but I cannot think of what.
Understood. And yep, I understand that not having a copy of what you submitted makes preparing for the hearing especially difficult. Lesson learned: always, always keep an exact copy of documents and forms submitted in a process like applying for citizenship.

My sense, as I have already indicated in previous posts, is that your fate depends in large part on the extent to which your documentation of employment covers all the months, each individually you reported being in Canada. If that documentation clearly shows you were working at a job site in Canada each and every month, or close to all months, you have better odds despite the absence of the passport. Alternative activity, like school attendance, can help considerably, and of course how this looks (remembering that how things look is important) can be influenced by various factors . . . not the least of which is your age.

But of course, what you submitted did NOT satisfy IRCC (you are headed to a hearing after all), so that is a big clue.

No one here can offer any reliable assurances about what will happen. There is no need to convince anyone here of your qualifications.

Go to the hearing. Do your best, being sure to be entirely honest, as accurate as you can be. Be a bit cautious about making bad excuses. Again, trying to say not having a passport proves you did not travel is not going to persuade anyone . . . albeit perhaps you could explain that you believed you could not travel without a passport, and perhaps you will get some leniency due to your age (assuming you are fairly young) . . . but even as to this, without revisiting the details of your history, my recollection is you went a rather long while between the date you lost your passport and when you obtained a new one. Regarding all this, probably best to stick to saying actual facts and minimize giving excuses and avoid giving explanations unless the CJ specifically asks you to explain . . . and even then, stick to actual facts as much as possible.

That is, make statements in the form "place I worked was near this or that location . . . I did this . . . I did that . . . I had this . . . I did not have that . . . the situation was this . . . the situation was that . . . I lived here . . . my car was parked at this place . . . and so on."

And minimize making conclusory statements, like statements in the form "X because of this (or that)."

And let us know how the hearing actually goes. The more reports we get about the hearing itself, the more that helps others be prepared if and when they too face this stage of processing.

Good luck.
 

beeza

Full Member
Jun 23, 2016
22
0
dpenabill said:
Understood. And yep, I understand that not having a copy of what you submitted makes preparing for the hearing especially difficult. Lesson learned: always, always keep an exact copy of documents and forms submitted in a process like applying for citizenship.

My sense, as I have already indicated in previous posts, is that your fate depends in large part on the extent to which your documentation of employment covers all the months, each individually you reported being in Canada. If that documentation clearly shows you were working at a job site in Canada each and every month, or close to all months, you have better odds despite the absence of the passport. Alternative activity, like school attendance, can help considerably, and of course how this looks (remembering that how things look is important) can be influenced by various factors . . . not the least of which is your age.

But of course, what you submitted did NOT satisfy IRCC (you are headed to a hearing after all), so that is a big clue.

No one here can offer any reliable assurances about what will happen. There is no need to convince anyone here of your qualifications.

Go to the hearing. Do your best, being sure to be entirely honest, as accurate as you can be. Be a bit cautious about making bad excuses. Again, trying to say not having a passport proves you did not travel is not going to persuade anyone . . . albeit perhaps you could explain that you believed you could not travel without a passport, and perhaps you will get some leniency due to your age (assuming you are fairly young) . . . but even as to this, without revisiting the details of your history, my recollection is you went a rather long while between the date you lost your passport and when you obtained a new one. Regarding all this, probably best to stick to saying actual facts and minimize giving excuses and avoid giving explanations unless the CJ specifically asks you to explain . . . and even then, stick to actual facts as much as possible.

That is, make statements in the form "place I worked was near this or that location . . . I did this . . . I did that . . . I had this . . . I did not have that . . . the situation was this . . . the situation was that . . . I lived here . . . my car was parked at this place . . . and so on."

And minimize making conclusory statements, like statements in the form "X because of this (or that)."

And let us know how the hearing actually goes. The more reports we get about the hearing itself, the more that helps others be prepared if and when they too face this stage of processing.

Good luck.
Another Update:

I was able to get into my Service Canada account and I got additional copies of my employment records and my EI claim so far I have proof of 1293 days of actual physical presence in Canada during that 4 year span. I know the odds are still against but thats 1293/1460 and I will be able to fill in the blanks.

I am going to take your advise and not make any excuses or anything. I will also be very thorough. The judge I am meeting with is from the area so he would know if I was bullshiting when I describe this or that. Like places I used to go that no longer exist or little things like that.
 

frege

Hero Member
Jun 13, 2012
953
29
Category........
Visa Office......
Paris
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
01-05-2012
AOR Received.
none
File Transfer...
01-08-2012
Med's Done....
02-12-2011
Interview........
none
Passport Req..
28-11-2012 (copy only)
VISA ISSUED...
05-12-2012
LANDED..........
15-12-2012
beeza said:
Another Update:

I was able to get into my Service Canada account and I got additional copies of my employment records and my EI claim so far I have proof of 1293 days of actual physical presence in Canada during that 4 year span. I know the odds are still against but thats 1293/1460 and I will be able to fill in the blanks.

I am going to take your advise and not make any excuses or anything. I will also be very thorough. The judge I am meeting with is from the area so he would know if I was bullshiting when I describe this or that. Like places I used to go that no longer exist or little things like that.
How many weeks do your records of employment cover on their own?
 

beeza

Full Member
Jun 23, 2016
22
0
frege said:
How many weeks do your records of employment cover on their own?
Weeks, umm well I need I have from my ROE's

ROE July 30 2008 - April 03 2010

April 5 I broke my elbow and went on EI

EI April 10 2010 - September 11 2010

College Transcript

September 09 2010 - April 30 2011

ROE June 25 2011 - October 25 2011

ROE November 29 2011 - May 15 2012

ROE May 28 2012 - Into 2013

And I have other things to help fill in the other dates. I'm not sure how many weeks that would be but close to 150 in ROE alone.