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Citizenship test: Collective action required, or expect endless delays, years. Example of the effective lobbyng of people awaiting spousal sponsorship

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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What is more productive? The people tweeting (a 1 line effort) at IRCC or people writing 1000 word essays criticizing people tweeting at IRCC in a random forum?
It is not the form, it is the substance that mostly matters. Form matters, some. Mostly it is the content, the messaging.

But regardless the form or number of words, messaging that emphasizes getting a Canadian passport to leave Canada is not going to persuade MPs it is a cause to get behind; more likely it will have a contrary effect. Regardless the form or number of words, messaging that disparages civil servants is likewise unlikely to attract support for the cause; more likely it will alienate many of the very people needed to put enough pressure on the bureaucrats to move things in the right direction and, very much the point now, to get things moving faster.

Effective advocacy is about a lot, lot more than frenetic activism. There's an old maxim, maybe Greek, maybe not: Being stupid is not smart.

I am sure the politicians want to win the election and any negative sustained press demonstrating this incompetence will move things. They don't really care about us, but they do care about winning the election.
Compare this to your comment about the media, about vagueness and deference to the government. I do not understand the persistence in believing this cause will generate sustained press . . . but especially sustained press demonstrating the government's incompetence. Try balancing the equation, figuring out what messaging will POSITIVELY influence decision-makers, and how to deliver that message to the decision-makers. Spoiler alert: it ain't easy. But it is worth pursuing.

Notwithstanding the deplorable undercurrent of anti-immigrant sentiment in too much of the Conservative agenda, even for them, even among the Conservatives, and far more so for the other political parties, a robust immigration system that serves the purpose of providing a real, reasonably practical path for immigrants to come to Canada, to become Permanent Residents, and then citizens, is a key policy and purpose for Canada. However much politicians care or do not care about individuals, Canadian politicians are keenly aware how important the path to PR and citizenship is to sustaining immigration and how important that, in turn, is to the Canadian economy. Focusing on and emphasizing the importance of having a process that is reasonably timely, in order to keep that system functioning, to sustain a continuing flow of immigration into this country, is almost certainly a more persuasive argument than threatening a backlash vote from what really is a fairly small number of angry POTENTIAL (future) voters.

Ultimately, if you apprehend a media bias leaning toward deference to the government, that's a clue. This is not a storm the Bastille cause. It is a cause best served by recognizing what the government's interests are and helping those in government to recognize that it is in their interest to get this process back on track and functioning more efficiently.
 
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fr72

Hero Member
Jan 6, 2017
376
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It is not the form, it is the substance that mostly matters. Form matters, some. Mostly it is the content, the messaging.

But regardless the form or number of words, messaging that emphasizes getting a Canadian passport to leave Canada is not going to persuade MPs it is a cause to get behind; more likely it will have a contrary effect. Regardless the form or number of words, messaging that disparages civil servants is likewise unlikely to attract support for the cause; more likely it will alienate many of the very people needed to put enough pressure on the bureaucrats to move things in the right direction and, very much the point now, to get things moving faster.

Effective advocacy is about a lot, lot more than frenetic activism. There's an old maxim, maybe Greek, maybe not: Being stupid is not smart.
Constantly linking any complaint about speed of processing to a blanket accusation of all such applicants being 'citizens of convenience' is blatant (close the door behind me) xenophobia.

There is something called: A straw man argument. No one is telling IRCC to speed up processing so that they can go abroad. But please go ahead and keep repeating the lie - fellow xenophobes (and governments elected by these xenophobes) will believe it if you repeat it often enough.
 

fr72

Hero Member
Jan 6, 2017
376
253
Here is the summary of the endless loop in this and many threads:

1. IRCC sits on files and arbitrarily slows down applications even if they have the technology and resources to move faster.

2. Applicants being human and not robots, complain about the slowness.

3. Xenophobes insist that the only reason any applicant would ever want citizenship in a reasonable time frame is to leave Canada (just like how any 18 year old only wants a drivers license to perform hit and runs right?)

4. Xenophobes conclude one of the following
- Dont criticize the infallible IRCC, you ungrateful cheats!
- Conservatives should come to power and make the eligibility period 20 years and a minimum of $1 million in taxes!
- No one reads tweets or this forum, so your complaining is useless
- But, IRCC agents read this forum and tweets and their frail ego is hurt which will cause them to drop their professionalism and take random revenge against all applicants

5. Applicants keep waiting and complaning.

6. Xenophobes complain about the complaining even though they think complaining does nothing and they already got theirs.
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
17,287
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Here is the summary of the endless loop in this and many threads:
...
6. Xenophobes complain about the complaining even though they think complaining does nothing and they already got theirs.
This is highly offensive. Please stop with the xenophobia accusations - particularly for those who clearly do not merit it, and often quite obviously the opposite, are actively trying to help others.

The messaging does matter. Personally I have little sympathy for the 'passport of convenience' argument (to the extent it is an argument) - but it would be foolish not to recognize that it is and has been a political argument in Canada (and likely will be for as long as we have high levels of immigration). As I understand @dpenabill's point - a very reasonable one, in my view - that because the "we need a passport" argument is linked in the minds of many (fairly or unfairly) with the so-called passport of convenience issue, it is not the strongest message, and potentially a harmful one, to use to push for public support.

Other than that, he seems to be very much in agreement that the delays in completing citizenship files are unacceptable - and even more so in covid times. So am I. It is the responsibility of government to implement the law, and to do so in a reasonable and timely manner. And it is not doing so acceptably. And yes - covid cannot and should not be an excuse as long as it has been.

What is a message that (I think) would have more resonance and be a positive argument? Voting.

(Note: I'm not making a legal argument about charter rights here - voting is a right reserved to citizens. Although there could potentially be a legal argument made, I'm not making it, as I'm not a lawyer).

The point is simple: PRs who have citizenship applications in process have met the primary obligations, at least, all of the ones that are in their power to undertake. They are living in and contributing to their communities, and voting is - in a natural justice sense - the key means by which community members can and should participate in our democracy. Members of our society should not be deprived of a core means of participation beyond the reasonable means and timeframes required to establish eligibility according to the law.

It is and should be seen by all as destructive and corrosive and blatantly unfair to unduly and unreasonably delay processing and finalization of citizenship. And an important note: since the right to vote requires citizenship at all levels of government (as far as I'm aware, everywhere in Canada), it is NOT just a federal issue. It is preventing participation in society right down to the municipal level.

I believe most Canadians would agree with that - and it's a rather compelling point. Because it applies to all levels of government, it should not be seen as the partisan issue naturally favouring one party or the other (as some would like to portray it).

[Sidebar going against my not-a-lawyer caveat - I think a very clever lawyer could potentially come up with at least a plausible legal argument that the federal government is negatively impacting elections and democracy at the provincial/municipal level with these excessive delays, and that by abdicating its responsibility to administer the law promptly, it is violating ... well, something. I won't venture further because thorny knots like legal standing are not at all simple and well beyond my ken.]

I've said before and I'll repeat: I think banging on constantly about provision 699, and 'get back to work and we pay taxes and those lazy government workers etc' is also EXTREMELY bad messaging. It is not positive and does not put the responsibility where it lies: the government. Whatever the details of the provision 699 (and I guarantee that 99% of the public's eyes just glaze over as soon as you say provision 699), it is the responsibility of the government to deliver - whether that means hiring more workers or dealing with their unions or digitalizing or whatever. There is zero benefit that I can see in making this about IRCC employees (and quite possibly blowback, as I suspect the main political tendency - without naming parties or candidates - that this 'govt wasting our money' appeals to is deeply sociologically tied to those that are also opposed to immigration.)

That said, anyone can complain on a forum if they want - I presume this forum is not the 'collective action' referred to.

But please let's take the temperature down and not repeat the xenophobia accusations.
 

fr72

Hero Member
Jan 6, 2017
376
253
This is highly offensive. Please stop with the xenophobia accusations - particularly for those who clearly do not merit it, and often quite obviously the opposite, are actively trying to help others.

The messaging does matter. Personally I have little sympathy for the 'passport of convenience' argument (to the extent it is an argument) - but it would be foolish not to recognize that it is and has been a political argument in Canada (and likely will be for as long as we have high levels of immigration). As I understand @dpenabill's point - a very reasonable one, in my view - that because the "we need a passport" argument is linked in the minds of many (fairly or unfairly) with the so-called passport of convenience issue, it is not the strongest message, and potentially a harmful one, to use to push for public support.

Other than that, he seems to be very much in agreement that the delays in completing citizenship files are unacceptable - and even more so in covid times. So am I. It is the responsibility of government to implement the law, and to do so in a reasonable and timely manner. And it is not doing so acceptably. And yes - covid cannot and should not be an excuse as long as it has been.

What is a message that (I think) would have more resonance and be a positive argument? Voting.

(Note: I'm not making a legal argument about charter rights here - voting is a right reserved to citizens. Although there could potentially be a legal argument made, I'm not making it, as I'm not a lawyer).

The point is simple: PRs who have citizenship applications in process have met the primary obligations, at least, all of the ones that are in their power to undertake. They are living in and contributing to their communities, and voting is - in a natural justice sense - the key means by which community members can and should participate in our democracy. Members of our society should not be deprived of a core means of participation beyond the reasonable means and timeframes required to establish eligibility according to the law.

It is and should be seen by all as destructive and corrosive and blatantly unfair to unduly and unreasonably delay processing and finalization of citizenship. And an important note: since the right to vote requires citizenship at all levels of government (as far as I'm aware, everywhere in Canada), it is NOT just a federal issue. It is preventing participation in society right down to the municipal level.

I believe most Canadians would agree with that - and it's a rather compelling point. Because it applies to all levels of government, it should not be seen as the partisan issue naturally favouring one party or the other (as some would like to portray it).

[Sidebar going against my not-a-lawyer caveat - I think a very clever lawyer could potentially come up with at least a plausible legal argument that the federal government is negatively impacting elections and democracy at the provincial/municipal level with these excessive delays, and that by abdicating its responsibility to administer the law promptly, it is violating ... well, something. I won't venture further because thorny knots like legal standing are not at all simple and well beyond my ken.]

I've said before and I'll repeat: I think banging on constantly about provision 699, and 'get back to work and we pay taxes and those lazy government workers etc' is also EXTREMELY bad messaging. It is not positive and does not put the responsibility where it lies: the government. Whatever the details of the provision 699 (and I guarantee that 99% of the public's eyes just glaze over as soon as you say provision 699), it is the responsibility of the government to deliver - whether that means hiring more workers or dealing with their unions or digitalizing or whatever. There is zero benefit that I can see in making this about IRCC employees (and quite possibly blowback, as I suspect the main political tendency - without naming parties or candidates - that this 'govt wasting our money' appeals to is deeply sociologically tied to those that are also opposed to immigration.)

That said, anyone can complain on a forum if they want - I presume this forum is not the 'collective action' referred to.

But please let's take the temperature down and not repeat the xenophobia accusations.

I will stop with the xenophobia accusations when people stop with the 'citizens of convenience' accusations.
 
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armoured

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Feb 1, 2015
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I will stop with the xenophobia accusations when people stop with the 'citizens of convenience' accusations.
I have gone through several pages (but not all) of @dpenabill's comments here. He is quite consistent and careful in using phrasing that makes it quite clear he is not making any such general or specific accusation. That it is about perceptions, or potential characterizations, and that perception can be relevant both to the public profile of the issue and potentially to handling of a file.

For example he uses the same phrasing (or close to it) several times: "...might perceive to fit the seeking-a-passport-of-convenience or applying-on-the-way-to-the-airport characterizations." His comments have been quite consistently in response to discussions or comments that bring up the issue (or might appear to fit such a characterization).

In contrast, you're just saying that anyone who even mentions the phrase is a xenophobe.

You owe him an apology.
 

thesonicbro

Hero Member
Jul 24, 2016
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There are people
I have gone through several pages (but not all) of @dpenabill's comments here. He is quite consistent and careful in using phrasing that makes it quite clear he is not making any such general or specific accusation. That it is about perceptions, or potential characterizations, and that perception can be relevant both to the public profile of the issue and potentially to handling of a file.

For example he uses the same phrasing (or close to it) several times: "...might perceive to fit the seeking-a-passport-of-convenience or applying-on-the-way-to-the-airport characterizations." His comments have been quite consistently in response to discussions or comments that bring up the issue (or might appear to fit such a characterization).

In contrast, you're just saying that anyone who even mentions the phrase is a xenophobe.

You owe him an apology.
It is crystal clear to identify who contributes the most in the community.

I would not even bother asking their apologies as they are just random trolls come and go!
 
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fr72

Hero Member
Jan 6, 2017
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I have gone through several pages (but not all) of @dpenabill's comments here. He is quite consistent and careful in using phrasing that makes it quite clear he is not making any such general or specific accusation. That it is about perceptions, or potential characterizations, and that perception can be relevant both to the public profile of the issue and potentially to handling of a file.

For example he uses the same phrasing (or close to it) several times: "...might perceive to fit the seeking-a-passport-of-convenience or applying-on-the-way-to-the-airport characterizations." His comments have been quite consistently in response to discussions or comments that bring up the issue (or might appear to fit such a characterization).

In contrast, you're just saying that anyone who even mentions the phrase is a xenophobe.

You owe him an apology.
When he (or others here) mentions citizenship of convenience in completely unrelated and out of context posts, that outs his real motivations. I owe him nothing.
 

fr72

Hero Member
Jan 6, 2017
376
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There are people


It is crystal clear to identify who contributes the most in the community.

I would not even bother asking their apologies as they are just random trolls come and go!
Sure, if you count contributions in number of words.

People like you are trolls on this thread. The intent of this thread is not to question the motives of immigrants, and yet, that is what is happening here.
 
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dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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The intent of this thread is not to question the motives of immigrants, and yet, that is what is happening here.
That is all too true. I am, after all, an immigrant. If I tried to quote all the times you have questioned my motives, aiming false accusations at me in that regard, just in this topic, that alone would exceed the character count allowed in a post. Yeah, it would be nice if you desist.

You are not alone. I do not keep track of how many pro-noise weak-on-substance posts have similarly questioned my motives without justification, but there are plenty. Along with plenty of name-calling and ad hominem, in addition to the gratuitous disparaging of Canadians generally. And that's apart from the drumbeat of abuse aimed at Canadian civil servants here.

But, in any event, this is not about me. No one need defend my role in this forum. It was a mistake for me to do so in response to @MrChazz, who likewise questioned my motives and character. Since @MrChazz had initially addressed some substantive elements, including Canadian case law, I (mistakenly it appears) perceived an interest in dealing with how things actually work, how the law and rules and procedures are in practice actually interpreted and applied. I thought, for example, that the efforts I have made in regards to a number of more complex and thorny matters affecting PRs, in regards to the Residency Obligation as well as becoming citizens, would be sufficient assurance to show my participation here is to help, to make positive contributions, and illustrate that, yes, I invest a considerable effort in doing the homework and trying to get things right.

For emphasis: These issues, and this one (about pushing IRCC to properly do its job) in particular, are NOT about me. My personal shortcomings are NOT relevant. My flaws are no more relevant than yours. Perhaps an accounting of my faults would be a far longer list populated by more egregious defects than yours, but that discussion would be way off-topic, a distraction.

Usually, with some exceptions, a slip here or there, I make a concerted effort to focus on information not opinion, although sometimes that can be information about "opinions." That is not about my own opinions (I try to clearly delineate what is my opinion when I do offer it). Figuring out how things work will often deal with mapping how opinions can influence how things work. This tends to loom large in regards to this topic. As I have oft noted, plenty of HOW-IT-SHOULD-BE opinion has populated this topic, usually to the detriment of the agenda to discuss and formulate effective messaging, strategies, and tactics, toward influencing lawmakers to put pressure on bureaucrats to do what is needed to get processing citizenship applications on track.

Which leads to your more recent insults and accusations. Unnecessary. Unwarranted. When you posed a query, despite your history of attacking my motives, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and made a sincere effort to respond appropriately.

You asked "What is more productive? The people tweeting (a 1 line effort) at IRCC or people writing 1000 word essays criticizing people tweeting at IRCC in a random forum?"

I sincerely answered "It is not the form, it is the substance that mostly matters. Form matters, some. Mostly it is the content, the messaging." And I gave two specific examples of counter-productive messaging. For those who are engaged in this topic because they are sincerely interested in seeing improvements in application processing, the distinction is indeed an important one. Effective advocacy is almost as much about avoiding the landmines, not alienating those who could help let alone the decision-makers, and especially not triggering or inciting elevated opposition.

I did not elaborate how "form matters, some," but there is strong evidence that one-liner tweets, for example, actually tend to have little if any persuasive influence (with isolated exceptions, such those by one now-banned source in that not-particularly-admirable neighbouring country to our south); while they can generate a lot of noise, that noise tends to be in an echo-chamber.

You chose to focus on one of my examples of counter-productive arguments, but not substantively other than your response appears to at least tacitly concur in the point I make: not a good idea to be arguing that citizenship application processing needs to be given a priority based on the need for a Canadian passport to travel abroad. (You say "No one is telling IRCC to speed up processing so that they can go abroad.") To be clear, however, this is not just about arguments made to IRCC, or even just about arguments to lawmakers who can put pressure on IRCC, but also about the public face of the cause (including here in this forum) and the effort to motivate people to support this cause.

I am not denigrating you, and never have, just because you are among those who have explicitly said your hurry, the reason you do not want a long wait, is because you "want the flexibility in life to be able to leave Canada for a few years . . . " The reasons you expressed are entirely understandable. And to think otherwise, to think I have, or that I have disparaged anyone else because they have made similar remarks here (most though, perhaps, not so emphatically as Dana.D), severely misunderstands the nature and the substance of my observations, which to a significant extent are cautionary. Cautionary on multiple levels. Cautionary based on how things really work.

What people think of me, shrug. I have to look in the mirror occasionally. Nothing there to brag about. Far from it. "Sad" someone might say, all too apropos. But irrelevant here.

What people think of the content I post here, in a sincere effort to help, to promote what is fair and just, that should stand on its own. I reference sources. I explain the reasoning (in more detail than some like, but it is very easy to scroll past it all; it is readily apparent that objections to my "too long" posts are either personal attacks or veiled objection to the content). I try to focus on what matters, how-it-works, and I hope some can put such information and analysis to good use.

For now, for this post, the take-away I'd like to emphasize is that the messaging matters. In the full 360°. That means messaging here, in communicating with forum readers, as well as in missives sent to MPs, the media, and whoever else one can identify as potentially helping to make a difference. And for this issue in particular, pushing for IRCC to more aggressively process citizenship applications, what is desperately needed is a more positive message . . . unfortunately, much of what is repeated here, again and again, is about making noise, and more than a little of that is negative noise. That's not effective messaging.

To go back to a message some, including me, have advanced, the importance of the path to citizenship in Canada's immigration policy, and its respective importance to not just the Canadian economy but to the Canada this nation strives to be, is worth promoting. Not a lot of bang in this message. Sure. But a fair and just process requires a reasonably timely process. I certainly hope some MPs and other lawmakers and community leaders, and decision-makers in our bureaucracies, believe this is important stuff and when reminded (our job), sooner rather than later, will pursue measures to make this system work, fairly, timely, with justice.
 

perpetualwait

Full Member
May 27, 2021
48
36
Anyone has any views on when IRCC may start operating at full strength. Ontario has the lowest cases this morning along with all other provinces with high vaccination rates and low cases now. Most government departments have adapted to COVID and are operating now. Backlogs aside, atleast IRCC needs to go back and start working. I called this morning and I was told things are slow because staffing is not full strength because of COVID. Really!?

I think at this point this has crossed the shameful line and is more around corruption and abuse of taxpayer money. Is there no way to hold them accountable? I heard stories of things like this in third world autocracies but never expected I would see something like this in a country like Canada.

Pure shameful abuse/incompetence/corruption.
 

abrakadabra

Hero Member
Oct 21, 2016
308
91
Anyone has any views on when IRCC may start operating at full strength. Ontario has the lowest cases this morning along with all other provinces with high vaccination rates and low cases now. Most government departments have adapted to COVID and are operating now. Backlogs aside, atleast IRCC needs to go back and start working. I called this morning and I was told things are slow because staffing is not full strength because of COVID. Really!?

I think at this point this has crossed the shameful line and is more around corruption and abuse of taxpayer money. Is there no way to hold them accountable? I heard stories of things like this in third world autocracies but never expected I would see something like this in a country like Canada.

Pure shameful abuse/incompetence/corruption.
I can't agree more. So shameful on IRCC, every time I call they they "we are operating on lower capacity". Really?? the whole world figured out how to work remotely and you haven't or don't want to.
 

karthicktalk

Star Member
Sep 7, 2017
117
6
In new application status portal, till yesterday, it was showing last update date as in progress with date as Apr 23, '21, today it shows last updated as June 04 and nothing has been changed apart from the last updated date.

Is anyone seeing similar or will i see updates soon? Thanks.
 

piotrqc

Hero Member
Aug 10, 2020
391
451
CBC news Toronto, just broadcast a video report concerning the citizenship's applications backlog, they talked about the IRCC's request for access to overdue information, backlog numbers, testimonials , an intervention of A.U the leader of the pressure group, and finally an intervention of the minister who promises that everything will be accelerated ... The video subject concluded by saying that the pressure group plans to resume public demonstrations if nothing changes. ..

I will share the video subject link as soon as I find it.

The pressure must not be released. As the famous quote says:

Rights are snatched up and not given. *

(* Translated from French)

, Piotr.
 

ott-613

Hero Member
Dec 16, 2019
377
175
CBC news Toronto, just broadcast a video report concerning the citizenship's applications backlog, they talked about the IRCC's request for access to overdue information, backlog numbers, testimonials , an intervention of A.U the leader of the pressure group, and finally an intervention of the minister who promises that everything will be accelerated ... The video subject concluded by saying that the pressure group plans to resume public demonstrations if nothing changes. ..

I will share the video subject link as soon as I find it.

The pressure must not be released. As the famous quote says:

Rights are snatched up and not given. *

(* Translated from French)

, Piotr.
People who applied online and ones on 2020 are getting certificates already. The unlucky ones who applied end of 2019 have nothing moved yet.