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Citizenship test: Collective action required, or expect endless delays, years. Example of the effective lobbyng of people awaiting spousal sponsorship

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,432
3,176
IRCC recognizes some personal reasons for needing expedited processing. This is a rather narrow range of reasons. If your needs fall within that range, a request for urgent processing is probably the best you can do for now.

If your personal reasons, your desperate need, falls outside the range of what IRCC recognizes as warranting expedited processing, that is what it is. In this situation it is quite likely your efforts will be more productive, more helpful, FOR YOU PERSONALLY, if they are focused on dealing with whatever is underlying this desperate need
With respect, I personally think this interpretation is wrong.

We are not here facing a personal case raising an emergency, but a total blockage of an administrative procedure, the citizenship process, in the impact affects a large part of the applicant.
Sorry. I do not understand why you object to my post. What you quote here was specifically in response to a query directed to me, me personally, which you "liked," and it was a query asking me specifically for "advice . . . for those people who are waiting 'desperately' ” . . . for the test.

I responded. As asked. Acknowledging, nonetheless, that a frank, honest answer probably is not the message wanted.

Moreover, since the VAST majority of citizenship applicants are NOT in a situation that could be fairly described as "desperately" needing to obtain citizenship soon, that query was clearly in regards to @Mustafa100's PERSONAL situation, something which makes getting to the oath soon an urgent, or desperate matter for @Mustafa100.

I do not know which group of applicants your "we" is in regards to. Perhaps a group of similarly situated applicants who, as @Mustafa100 claims to be, in urgent or desperate need of getting citizenship soon. But it would be hyperbolic or disingenuous to characterize the vast majority of the two hundred or so thousand (maybe more) who have applications in process as "desperately" needing citizenship soon.

For those who are similarly situated (assuming the query was not disingenuous), who do have an urgent or desperate need to become a citizen soon, it would sensible and wise for them to recognize the nature of their PERSONAL situation and carefully consider their options. Especially since the odds are rather high that most of them (unless the "urgent" need in their particular situation is among those recognized by IRCC as warranting expedited processing) are NOT going to be taking the oath soon . . . most probably not for at least six months or a year more, and perhaps longer than that, or if your assessment of the situation is in the ballpark, perhaps NOT for YEARS.

"Mobilization" may help to accelerate the pace generally. If your assessment is in the ballpark, it may help avoid delays for YEARS. But those who are currently in a situation which can fairly be described as "desperate" are NOT at all likely to be proceeding to the oath anytime "soon" (but for a small percentage), and again probably not for at least six months to a year, or more. If they are going to manage their way through, they can use some honest, practical information which will, hopefully, help them get a realistic perspective and make decisions accordingly. For those who are desperate, waiting on the outcome of a mobilization to push IRCC to accelerate the pace is not likely to be enough.

Which brings me to . . .

You have the peace of mind of having your Canadian citizenship, not everyone is so fortunate and worried about not having it with the pandemic, and it's normal to be afraid. Human feeling.
For sure, fear is a deeply human emotion. Way, way too easily manipulated. And there is rather too much fear-mongering spread recklessly in this forum.

A big part of why I continue to post in topics like this is to help those with an application pending recognize they do not need to fear all that much. And, also, to help them gain some perspective so they can recognize the parameters of what they are dealing with. Like yes, there are going to continue to be delays, a much longer than before time-line. But no, they do not need to be afraid their applications will be returned due to a change in the law (I recognize you have a different view about that, that we disagree).

Let's be clear, I have indeed been around this block before. I have the experience, and I have done a lot of homework, and my motive is to use both to HELP others.

I became eligible for Canadian citizenship during the midst of the Harper-Kenney draconian crack-down that was purportedly targeting fraud and those who were seen to be passport-shopping, those seen to be "applying-on-the-way-to-the-airport," but which employed grossly overly-broad criteria to drag tens of thousands of applicants into a very lengthy, protracted process, which not only really did take YEARS, it included a profound intrusion into the privacy of scores and scores of applicants for whom there was no good reason to demand their credit card and bank statements, history of medical care, and so on. (That's what full-blown RQ asks for, so the applicant presents a total stranger bureaucrat bank and credit records for years, and records revealing at least the dates and physician for all the applicant's health care over those years; an utterly profound invasion of individual privacy just to get citizenship.)

When I was preparing to make my application the routine processing timeline was TWO TIMES longer than now. And that was just for half the number of applicants. Scores and scores of applicants were enduring processing timelines for three to four plus years. A friend and associate of mine said his application took SEVEN years. I saw cases reported in Federal Court decisions where applications had been in process for eight and nine years, one for more than decade. My personal circumstances included factors which were known criteria for full-blown RQ. I successfully navigated the process and actually got my citizenship in one-third the routine processing time for then . . . doing the homework appeared to pay off.

As I said, yes, I have been around the block. Learned a few things. And I try to use that to help others here.

I do not post to scare. But I will be frank about the difficulties and hurdles.

You make some reference to "passivity" not being a solution. Not sure why you added that in response to a post by me. I may be a pacifist (which I aspire to be) but there is no hint of passivity in me or my posts. While personally I do not deserve to so much as mention them by name, nonetheless my models for advocacy and activism are Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr. Yeah, from another century. As am I mostly.

You and I have different views about the better way to encourage IRCC to get the citizenship application process moving faster. We have very different views about what is at stake. And we emphasize different aspects of dealing with this situation . . . to my view, how the individual applicant deals with the situation looms just as important, if not more so, than engaging in group action to promote a general acceleration of processing by IRCC . . . even though there may be as many as a quarter million or more applicants, for many if not most their individual situations and needs and concerns should be their primary focus, to help them better navigate the process and reduce unnecessary anxieties about how things will go.

As for your request to control how I post, couched in "please, please," no. Or, no thank you. Someone mentioned the importance of allowing free speech. I concur.
 

piotrqc

Hero Member
Aug 10, 2020
391
451
As for your request to control how I post, couched in "please, please," no. Or, no thank you. Someone mentioned the importance of allowing free speech. I concur.
Very well either. Freedom of expression you said? ... Let's go into it to the depths of it.

To be frank with you in the extreme, I must admit one thing to you: I have very serious doubts as to your intentions and what you hope to do in this discussion ... We can feel your relentlessness from the beginning, despite that you are not directly concerned according to your words .... And curiously all your interventions are directed towards a single directice line, or editorial line = That of the `` appeasement '' (As if myself and people who think like me here say to do extreme things or nonsense ... While we are simply emphasizing our rights acquired by the Canadian charter of rights and freedoms, and highlighting the various democratic tools to which we have access to access a completely normal concern, following the de facto stoped

(As long as the tests are interrupted, and exemptions made for people exempted by their age, the situation is a complete de facto stop of the citizenship procedure for all other applicants ) of an administrative procedure.

It seems that the fact that people are expressing themselves or getting organized scares you ... You always intervene to discourage people, and to say demoralizing and discouraging remarks, with long texts of interminable explanations to explain why according to you mobilization is useless, but also to deflect the subject and distract people - that's my impression -,



In this case, you are not well placed to judge the urgency of the matter for a request ... In truth, this question is '' CADUQUE'' ( no-sens) and not relevant in the subject of this post, because we speak, again, a generalized shutdown.

The fact that you are asking people to focus on the personal case is an implicit assertion that other group actions will be of no use. You seem to have to discourage people.

Emergency treatment is rarely granted, and for very very specific (and very rare) cases ... You know that!
This solution will therefore be of no use for the quasi-majority of people on board the boat which risks sinking (You have already arrived on the right shore for years if we believe your story).

Now, the legitimate question I ask myself and a few others here before me: What interest have you in doing this? .... That's a question, no more ...



to help them better navigate the process and reduce unnecessary anxieties about how things will go.
Unnecessary? ... It is your judgment, you have the right to have it ... But it is not an absolute truth, it is relative.

And within the framework of my freedom of expression, I would like to add that this kind of remark is counterproductive and bad, in my opinion ... and can encourage passivity.


@All: Don't be distracted. let's back to the subject.

, Piotr.
 

hotshot45890

Star Member
Jun 29, 2020
102
106
Another Federal Skilled Worker draw conducted today to bring new PRs from outside Canada. Would be interesting to understand the thought process from the government in allocating resources to economic immigration in this economic environment. Just seems like the priorities are all wrong with all of this.

Would have made sense to pause this in the short term and reallocate resources to existing PRs and individuals in Canada for Citizenship processing. This with zero communication and transparency is just all wrong. It is difficult to just sit quietly for months and likely years when the decisions that are being made currently do not prioritize tax-paying PRs in Canada who have invested their lives here.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,432
3,176
I must admit one thing to you: I have very serious doubts as to your intentions . . .
You misread me. Badly. Peruse my other posts.

It seems that the fact that people are expressing themselves or getting organized scares you ..
I have all sorts of fears. None whatsoever that citizenship applicants are "getting organized."

Note, in an earlier post just today I was overtly encouraging forum participants to engage and coordinate efforts to obtain information from IRCC. Emphasizing that can indeed help.

In several posts I have continued to encourage those interested to be proactive, and have for example overtly supported communicating with their MPs.

Just because --
-- I disagree with you regarding what is at stake, and​
-- I disagree as to methods, the best way to address this situation, and​
-- I recognize and emphasize the importance of how individual applicants can better handle their own situations, taking into account most will continue to encounter a lengthy timeline, but do not need to fear the government arbitrarily returning their applications,​

. . . does not mean you need to personally attack me, or that doing so is justified.

Making noise does not mean anything is being accomplished, any minds are moved, any concrete steps to make things better have been made. In more than a few situations, making noise can be counter-productive.

Even if I was urging passivity or appeasement, which is NOT what I do, but even if I was, that would not justify attacking me personally.



https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/goto/post?id=8824647
dpenabill said:
to help them better navigate the process and reduce unnecessary anxieties about how things will go.​
Unnecessary? ... It is your judgment, you have the right to have it ... But it is not an absolute truth, it is relative.
. . . I would like to add that this kind of remark is counterproductive and bad, in my opinion ... and can encourage passivity.
Appears we particularly disagree here. Of course this pertains to our disagreement over what is at stake.

And sure, if current applicants apprehend the prospect of a far more severe outcome, like applications being returned due to a change in the law, odds are that will motivate more to get more engaged, more active.

And sure, in contrast, if current applicants do NOT apprehend that happening and recognize that the worst case is a very long wait, and the best case is likely to be a fairly long wait anyway, easy to guess fewer will be motivated to take-to-the-streets.

We have both previously expressed the basis for our respective views about what is at stake in this topic, in-depth and at-length.

My views are based on what I assert is an honest, frank, realistic, and practical evaluation of how Canadian law works, the history of Canadian citizenship law, and the role of naturalized citizenship in Canadian immigration policies and practices. I have no reservations, no doubts, there is NO reason to fear the government will return qualified applications based on a future change in the law. Sure, there is a significant element of opinion in this. But it is NOT true that all opinions are equal. And again, in the early pages of this topic I explained what underlies and supports the view that fear of this happening is indeed unnecessary.

And those who come here are entitled to an honest opinion, especially if it will alleviate unnecessary anxieties.

This is not at all off topic. As I have also previously emphasized, efficacious activism demands clarity about what is at stake. Meaningful advocacy addresses the real problem. Posturing a boogeyman, and to my view the claim that what is at stake is the return of applications is a boogeyman, will divert and diffuse and ultimately undermine a worthwhile cause.

I support the efforts to reasonably, proportionately encourage IRCC to do its job. Bureaucracies need some prompting at times. And this appears to be one of those times. Get informed. That's a big one. Communicate with MPs (regarding which, getting informed first can make a big difference in how effectively one can communicate with and influence MPs).

But there is no need for despair. First priority for citizenship applicants is to take care of themselves. And in this regard, its OK to take some of the worry weight off.
 

piotrqc

Hero Member
Aug 10, 2020
391
451
I just honestly feel like it's fallen through the cracks. The government isn't malicious and they aren't out to deny new immigrants a chance at citizenship. It's just not something that's top of mind for them. Especially with various crises going on. The only solution is to rise above the din, and keep reminding the government that this is an important issue. Either via *carrots* - we will vote for you; or *sticks* - media attention, opposition complaints and legal proceedings. It's just the nature of things.
I would like to applaud this pragmatic and clear intervention.

You are right, everything in this life is about a balance of power.

Passivity and being silent will bring nothing new, only more painful years of waiting.

Vacation code 699 and the strength of the union of federal employees will only lengthen the time indefinitely, while they relax at home in peace and continue to be paid.

The sticks seem to me to be more effective than the carrots in the circumstances in this case, it is necessary to be intelligent and to avoid politicizing the thing: This will give unexpected material and exploitable gold for the racists and xenophobes. (and of the conservative party incidentally, O'tool won because of the support of the right wing of the conservative party, pro-arms and anti-abortion among others, but I do not want to talk about this subject anymore so as not to contradict me ...)

This is how I see the situation: It is a generalized blocking, a situation of complete de facto cessation of citizenship application procedures (exception made of people exempted from testing because of their age, a small proportion, everything the others are subject to the force test of the immigration law, de jure, which means that everything is stopped until further notice, indefinitely).

It is therefore a serious situation, a situation of shutdown of a public service paid for by our taxes, and not justified (Anyone who will tell you that the shutdown is there for health security reasons is lying to you, or they are just mean, selfish, or maybe racist) : The recovery is already underway in most provinces, and even cultural activities like cinemas have resumed their activities, with a total of people allowed in a single room of 250 people for Quebec, for example. I'm not even talking about the opening of schools ... In short, invoking the health argument is totally dishonest in these conditions.

In conclusion, it is a serious situation of totally unjustified blocking of a public service: We must denounce it, and it is even our right to denounce it. By all possible legal ways.

A participant in the discussions here has already sent a request for access to information. (You can do it yourself via this link: https://atip-aiprp.tbs-sct.gc.ca/en/Home/Welcome )

Not sure if this is the right way to do it but I have sent an ATIP request to IRCC with the following. I will keep you guys posted in case they respond with some useful information.
Let's wait to see the result of this procedure ... (Normally this procedure obliges the institutions and government departments to provide all the relevant documents at their disposal, and which can answer the question. It allows to discover the internal documents, not to have to have clear answers ... But that will be a good lead. If the result confirms our fears, that is to say the possibility that the delays will last for years even more, at this moment with the documents obtained it may be relevant to alert the press. I have already spotted some journalists to contact. I will put the coordinates here as soon as we have any news about the request for access to information from our friends or other members.

Finally, as far as legal proceedings are concerned, I think that this card can only be played really as a last resort, if the delays drag on for a few more years, and all other ways have not given result ... I really hope not to get there, it would be really sad ...

The federal court seems to be competent for this kind of recourse. An action of this scale could hardly be carried out by a single individual, it will surely be necessary to consider a collective action.

https://www.fct-cf.gc.ca/en/pages/about-the-court/jurisdiction/administrative-law
 
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ott-613

Hero Member
Dec 16, 2019
377
175
We dont want to fall into rabbit holes and lengthy negative letters, all we want is IRCC to start processing 2019 citizenship applications and clear the backlog so our fellows of 2020 can have their turn too in reasonable time.

No more fancy words , you should not tell employees how todo their job ‘if you really want a result’ you instead should motivate them todo the best.

above all, we are facing global pandemic that might take years to resolve.
 

JHT

Star Member
Sep 4, 2020
82
26
I do need a proper passport for my business , even in covid, as often I have had to apply with tons of paperwork for a business visa
They even ask for my birth certificate for a visitor visa... smh.


then With no eta of getting a visa and also more and more questions being asked each year , by the same country I’ve been in numerous times and have quite a significant business trade volume with those countries.

my business is suffering due to this unfair discrimination solely which is based on my nationality. I do need my citizenship urgently, for myself to be competitive enough to survive.

it’s hardly fair when pay significant taxes on my worldwide income, for what is becoming more and more of a third world level of government service.

It’s even more odd it’s a country where junkies are given priority and a free pass in Commuting crimes and free drugs.
 

piotrqc

Hero Member
Aug 10, 2020
391
451
Apparently, IRCC employees are very sensitive to COVID-19.

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/federal-employees-really-nervous-about-returning-to-office-during-pandemic-pipsc-1.5083160

Our concerns about the 699 code and the power of the Union of Federal Government Employees seem to be confirmed: We risk waiting years longer if we do nothing ... Selections from the text :



OTTAWA -- The president of one of Canada’s major federal public sector unions is calling on the federal government to continue to invest in work-at-home infrastructure, saying employees are “really, really nervous” about potentially returning to the office due to COVID-19.


Daviau said discussions on back to work protocols between the unions and the departments are going well, but there are many unanswered questions for union members.

“They’re very concerned about their safety in internal spaces, with poor ventilation, not enough space between work spaces and I would say the vast majority of public servants, who continue to work very productively from home, are not interested in returning to the office before they’re really safe for them to return to.” (Note from me: This means they are calling for a daily covid-19 infection rate of zero before considering a return to work .... I don't see what else that can mean = Years and years of waiting)


“Some are saying we’re in no rush, we’re able to do the bulk of our work remotely and therefore we’re not going to return people before October, or November, or the end of the year even,” said Daviau on plans for departments to bring employees back to work.

The Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada says employees are nervous about returning to work,


What we’re been pushing for is a lot of notice period for people so they can reorganize their lives and of course making sure these workplaces are safe to return to,” said Daviau.
 

mirko.alilovic

Star Member
Dec 10, 2014
85
8
Category........
Visa Office......
Sydney
NOC Code......
2172
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
20-05-2015
AOR Received.
28-07-2015
Med's Request
23-12-2015
Med's Done....
08-01-2016
“They’re very concerned about their safety in internal spaces, with poor ventilation, not enough space between work spaces and I would say the vast majority of public servants, who continue to work very productively from home, are not interested in returning to the office before they’re really safe for them to return to.” (Note from me: This means they are calling for a daily covid-19 infection rate of zero before considering a return to work .... I don't see what else that can mean = Years and years of waiting)
I guess if 699 was not a thing they would be more interested in returning to office and start conducting citizenship tests, but until they can live off dumbass tax payers like myself without actually doing any work why on earth would they want to go back?
 
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ott-613

Hero Member
Dec 16, 2019
377
175
They might be working from home, some jobs dont require people to be present in the office.

I guess someone had scanned them first !
Some people reported their applications moved from AoR to in-process! Mean things are moving...
 

devnill

Hero Member
Dec 5, 2015
256
43
I guess if 699 was not a thing they would be more interested in returning to office and start conducting citizenship tests, but until they can live off dumbass tax payers like myself without actually doing any work why on earth would they want to go back?
I think most people in their situation would make the same choice. I'm lucky in that I can work from home but if my employer insisted on returning to the office I would probably have to quit and find another job. Obviously federal employees have the option of remaining employed but a benefit of working for federal agencies has always been tenured employment.
 

hotshot45890

Star Member
Jun 29, 2020
102
106
I think most people in their situation would make the same choice. I'm lucky in that I can work from home but if my employer insisted on returning to the office I would probably have to quit and find another job. Obviously federal employees have the option of remaining employed but a benefit of working for federal agencies has always been tenured employment.
Good thing Doctors, Nurses, Teachers, Store workers and other essential workers don't have this philosophy, otherwise, we would be in a lot of trouble!

Bottom line is that if they are refusing to go back to work they should quit. There are many unemployed Canadians who would be glad and willing to take these cushy jobs and actually contribute and add value. It is debatable on how many of these workers are actually at risk. I know many federal workers who are traveling on vacations around Canada and are sending their kids to school and even eating out at restaurants. The hypocrisy of Covid risk only comes into play when they actually have to work to earn their keep.
 

Arioji

Full Member
Aug 28, 2020
32
20
As I have previously mentioned here, please everybody try to find your MP and complaint to him/her. I wrote an email to our region MP, She was not helpful. So I wrote another email to the MP of nearby region. This is what I got, :
Dear.........
> Thank you again for your email. We are sorry to hear that MP .........office hasn’t been helpful on your case.
> I have explained your family's situation with MP ......... As a matter of fact, our office has received multiple requests from families like yours, inquiring on the citizenship processes. We understand the stress you are facing.
> As you may already be aware, PM Trudeau shut down the Parliament back in Aug 18. This means, MP ....... won't have a chance to raise the concerns and questions to the Minister until Parliament resumes.
> Please keep safe.

> Sincerely,
I think at least it is better than doing nothing.
 
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