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Citizenship Certificate? Newfoundland born Grandfather, British army WW2 service

FogoMac

Newbie
Feb 14, 2019
4
1
Hi everyone, I thought I would post up my Citizenship Certificate application details.

Grandfather was born in Newfoundland in 1913, held a Newfoundland passport as a 'British Subject'. He travelled to the UK and joined the British Army (Newfoundland had Dominion status at this time, was not part of Canada, and had no army of its own). He married an English girl and my father was born in the UK during the war in 1941, while he was serving. My father's birth was never registered with Canadian authorities and as things stood, lost his claim to Canadian citizenship on his 23rd birthday under the 1947 Act. My father only applied for his first UK passport in the early 1980s. My grandfather retained his Newfoundland and then Canadian passport throughout his life until his death in 1980. He returned to Newfoundland for a couple of short holidays, proud to see his military service (until January 1946) commemorated in the Royal Legion in St. Johns. I was born in 1967 in the UK, so am second generation born abroad.

I submitted Citizenship Certificate applications in Autumn 2018 for both my father and myself. My father's is much more clearcut than mine I think. Mine ultimately will depend on the definition of 'in the service of a Province or Territory / Crown Service' contained within the exceptions to the normal second generation born abroad rule, and whether this can legitimately be extended to descendants of Newfoundland men who served 'the Crown' not in the Canadian but in the British Army. I've included his army service records with my application, including my father's birth certificate which states father's occupation as 'Army Trooper' with his service number.

Current timeline is as follows (applied from UK):
  1. We received your application for a citizenship certificate (proof of Canadian citizenship) on September 17, 2018.
  2. We sent you correspondence acknowledging receipt of your application(s) on October 4, 2018.
As you can see, I'm now approaching the five-month point since the application was received in NS. I'll update this if and when I receive any more information, but would welcome any comments in the meantime.
 
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hawk39

Hero Member
Mar 26, 2017
689
284
I did not know that you could submit your application without first obtaining your father's proof of citizenship, so is that timeline for your father's application or your application?

After doing some very light research, my "gut feeling" is that you might not qualify under the exception of the first generation rule because it states that your grandfather had to be employed with the Canadian Armed Forces or be a Crown servant of Canada. It seems that the term "Crown" is used by all nations of the British Commonwealth; so in this context, I think it is used to mean as any employee of the federal or of a provincial government in Canada. Because Newfoundland was still a part of the UK when your grandfather joined the British Army, I think his service would be reflected as being under the UK and not retroactively under Canada, since I believe Canada already had its own organized sovereign military with the enactment of the National Defence Act in 1923.

I'm in no way a historian, so I hope I misinterpreted what little research I did and that I am wrong. Good luck :).
 

bob_schaf

Member
Feb 10, 2019
11
0
I did not know that you could submit your application without first obtaining your father's proof of citizenship, so is that timeline for your father's application or your application?

After doing some very light research, my "gut feeling" is that you might not qualify under the exception of the first generation rule because it states that your grandfather had to be employed with the Canadian Armed Forces or be a Crown servant of Canada. It seems that the term "Crown" is used by all nations of the British Commonwealth; so in this context, I think it is used to mean as any employee of the federal or of a provincial government in Canada. Because Newfoundland was still a part of the UK when your grandfather joined the British Army, I think his service would be reflected as being under the UK and not retroactively under Canada, since I believe Canada already had its own organized sovereign military with the enactment of the National Defence Act in 1923.

I'm in no way a historian, so I hope I misinterpreted what little research I did and that I am wrong. Good luck :).
Hi,
Sorry if I am hijacking this thread but do you know if a person who might be a Canadian citizen qualifies for a work permit?
Thanks!
 

hawk39

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Mar 26, 2017
689
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bob_schaf

Member
Feb 10, 2019
11
0
After reading the thread you created regarding your situation and the answers given by other members, the only thing I can add is if that job requires you to be a Canadian citizen, you should be eligible for urgent processing of your application for proof of citizenship.
Thank you so much for replying! I don't believe the job requires me to be a canadian citizen but it also says if you need a Social number, you might qualify for urgent processing. I will explore more of this. Thanks again!
 

FogoMac

Newbie
Feb 14, 2019
4
1
I did not know that you could submit your application without first obtaining your father's proof of citizenship, so is that timeline for your father's application or your application?

After doing some very light research, my "gut feeling" is that you might not qualify under the exception of the first generation rule because it states that your grandfather had to be employed with the Canadian Armed Forces or be a Crown servant of Canada. It seems that the term "Crown" is used by all nations of the British Commonwealth; so in this context, I think it is used to mean as any employee of the federal or of a provincial government in Canada. Because Newfoundland was still a part of the UK when your grandfather joined the British Army, I think his service would be reflected as being under the UK and not retroactively under Canada, since I believe Canada already had its own organized sovereign military with the enactment of the National Defence Act in 1923.

I'm in no way a historian, so I hope I misinterpreted what little research I did and that I am wrong. Good luck :).
Thanks for the reply and taking the time for a little research, it's an interesting one!

Following the recommendation that related family applications are submitted at the same time, that's what I did, especially as the documentation in relation to both is almost the same.

As regards my application,

To quote a canada.ca precis of the exception:
"at the time of your Canadian Parent's birth or adoption, your Canadian grandparent was employed outside Canada, other than as a locally engaged person (a crown servant):
-in the Canadian Armed Forces
-with the federal public administration
-with the public service of a province or territory

I really made my application on the basis of a reading of the final category. A standard (google) definition of 'public service' includes working for the military, and he was working with for a 'province's', i.e., Newfoundland's military at the time (which happened to be the British Army), and he was not 'locally engaged' as this is taken to mean, i.e., an ancillary employee, for example someone living local to his base who was given a job there to clean offices etc.

Having said that, what about the "Canadian Armed Forces" category? Well my grandfather didn't sign up with the Canadian Armed Forces, but does Candian Armed forces mean just literally the Canadian Armed forces, or is the definition of what that might actually include a bit wider than it might first appear?
At the time of confederation after the war, Newfoundland British Army and Canadian veterans were actually promised not only equal status, but even a little more. The Newfoundland Act is worth a look, summarising as it did, both what would the people of Newfoundland would be offered in their referendum on Confederation and the scope of Canada's new obligations towards its new citizens. Perhaps surprisingly by today's standards, it is almost silent as regards what is now universally a complex subject - citizenship and nationality. A single sentence Paragaph (43) states simply that:

""suitable arrangements will be made for the extension of the Canadian citizenship laws to the Province of Newfoundland".

Much more revealing though, are the Paragraphs dealing with the Newfoundland men who had served in the two wars in the armed forces (i.e., principally British or Imperial forces) or been merchant seamen. The clear principle seems to be that when compared to Canadians from the other existing provinces who had served, these men were not to be discriminated against, were to be accorded equal treatment, and indeed, treated as if they had been members of the Royal Canadian forces. Paragraph 39, a-f deals with the treatment of Newfoundland 'veterans' under the proposed union with Canada (the wording of the merchant seamen paragraph is almost identical. Specifically, (and it really does say this!)

"Canada will make available to Newfoundland veterans the following benefits, on the same basis as they are from time to time available
to Canadian veterans, as if the Newfoundland veterans had served in His Majesty's Canadian Forces
, namely..
- Free hospital treatment, pensions, Veterans Land Act benefits, Veterans Business & Professional Loans Act benefits, etc etc

Quite obviously nationality or citizenship is not mentioned here directly as a specific veteran 'benefit' but it is, I think a very clear demonstration of the principles that were to be applied to Newfoundland veterans.

Thanks again...
 

hawk39

Hero Member
Mar 26, 2017
689
284
T

"Canada will make available to Newfoundland veterans the following benefits, on the same basis as they are from time to time available
to Canadian veterans, as if the Newfoundland veterans had served in His Majesty's Canadian Forces, namely..
- Free hospital treatment, pensions, Veterans Land Act benefits, Veterans Business & Professional Loans Act benefits, etc etc
You've convinced me to reverse my initial assessment, as I did not look up the Newfoundland Act (i.e. very light research). If your claim is rejected by CIC, I believe that passage would be your strongest evidence to appeal their decision, as it is plainly written, that Newfoundland veterans before Confederation are, as if they had always served as, Canadians. Good luck :).
 
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