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Citizenship application with DUI

jasperJ

Star Member
Mar 20, 2019
99
29
Thank you for your analysis. I called RCMP today. They mentioned my administrative penalty for impaired driving should not show up in their check and should give me a clear pass. I will do the criminal record check. In the tow seizure form officer ticked yes to ´ entered on cpic ‘ .

Question 1: I am not sure if I should check yes when asked « do you have criminal conviction > when applying for PR if rcmp check shows clear

I did call three RCMP branches and clearly explained impaired over 0.08 but they said it should not show up in results.

Question 2: what are the back ground checks IRCC does ? Which databases. I think the police entered it on CPIC as per vehicle seizure form but it says IRS fail
There are some good immigration lawyer that can help you with answering these questions. You don’t need to hire them as your PR application representative but just pay and book for an hour consultation (~$300-400), and they should be able to answer all your questions.

Make sure to provide them the background of your circumstances and link to IRS program page beforehand so that they come prepared.

I had a similar consultation with Erin C Roth and she answered all my questions and all of her answers were correct (thats how it ended up happening)
 
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Amrou5789

Newbie
Dec 15, 2023
5
1
Thank you for your analysis. I called RCMP today. They mentioned my administrative penalty for impaired driving should not show up in their check and should give me a clear pass. I will do the criminal record check. In the tow seizure form officer ticked yes to ´ entered on cpic ‘ .

Question 1: I am not sure if I should check yes when asked « do you have criminal conviction > when applying for PR if rcmp check shows clear

I did call three RCMP branches and clearly explained impaired over 0.08 but they said it should not show up in results.

Question 2: what are the back ground checks IRCC does ? Which databases. I think the police entered it on CPIC as per vehicle seizure form but it says IRS fail
I think you mentioned that you’re based off Alberta I just checked the IRS and let me tell you that you might be lucky!

unfortunately I’m in Ontario so I don’t know how this will play out!
 
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Fuzu

Star Member
Oct 6, 2021
98
2
Yes I might be lucky but not sure.

As others have suggested will hire a lawyer.

Here is a formal definition of the word conviction.

1. a formal declaration that someone is guilty of a criminal offense, made by the verdict of a jury or the decision of a judge in a court of law.

Since I was not fingerprinted, arrested or get to defend myself infront of a judge in a court of a law, I guess i am okay but not sure. When I eventually apply for PR and if it gets refused I will see a criminal lawyer that can hopefully write up a legal opinion letter or help in another way. I am not sure.

I think you mentioned that you’re based off Alberta I just checked the IRS and let me tell you that you might be lucky!

unfortunately I’m in Ontario so I don’t know how this will play out!
 

mpkr

Member
Aug 7, 2019
10
0
Dear expert members,


To provide a brief overview of my situation, my sister became Permanent Resident in 2017. However, due to marital issues, she encountered legal complications during a visit to UK to meet her husband in July 2019, resulting in a criminal harassment conviction and a restraining order in UK also a fine. Then she returned to Canada in end july 2019 and she is working full time . Field her taxes and also running small business from past 4.5 years. In addition tot that she also did not leave Canada till today. Even though as per UK law it is summary but As per the Canadian criminal code of equivalency it is Hybrid offence but IRCC would consider it as indictable offence for immigration.

I have several inquiries regarding her immigration.

1. Can she apply for PR renewal which expired in October2022 from inside Canada with the UK conviction?

2. If PR renewal is not feasible, should she pursue a Temporary Resident Permit (TRP)?

3. What is the timeline for eligibility to apply for Canadian citizenship?

4. Do she need to seek criminal rehabilitation before applying for PR renewal or citizenship?

any insights about this matter would be greatly appreciated .

thank you in advance!
 

Fuzu

Star Member
Oct 6, 2021
98
2
Hi @dpenabill only here because I found some additional information and wanted to see if it matters.

I did go to some immigration lawyers and spent some money. I was not satisfied because half of them said it is not a problem since I was not criminally convicted and half said it was a problem so I am in the grey.

i found this on IRPA
36.3e) inadmissibility under subsections (1) and (2) may not be based on an offence
  • (i) designated as a contravention under the Contraventions Act,
  • (ii) for which the permanent resident or foreign national is found guilty under the Young Offenders Act, chapter Y-1 of the Revised Statutes of Canada, 1985, or
  • (iii) for which the permanent resident or foreign national received a youth sentence under the Youth Criminal Justice Act.

    My Immediate Roadside Sanction has a contravention number. Does it mean it is an offence under the contravention act? Does it mean it will not cause a problem ?

  • I am only back here because I am researching on my own again because I thought the lawyers would be able to give me some certainty. I spent 1.5 k but now due to difference in opinion without certainity amongst lawyers, I am back to researching and sleepless night. Your help and time will be greatly appreciated thank you

 

Fuzu

Star Member
Oct 6, 2021
98
2
Here is some info on the contravention act. I think IRS fail is under this act because it has a contravention number but I am not sure.

2.2. Overview of the Contraventions Act
The Act allows the federal government to designate federal statutory offences as contraventions, so that they could be processed using a ticketing system, instead of the summary conviction process included in the Criminal Code.

By establishing a ticketing system, the federal government wishes to reduce the burden on the court system and to limit the impact of a conviction based on a federal contravention. As stated in section 4, the purpose of the Act is:

  • to provide a procedure for the prosecution of contraventions that reflects the distinction between criminal offences and regulatory offences and this is in addition to the procedures set out in the Criminal Code for the prosecution of contraventions and other offences; and
  • to alter or abolish the consequences in law of being convicted of a contravention, in light of that distinction.
Before passage of the Act, the summary conviction process described in the Criminal Code was essentially the one that enforcement authorities had to follow when enforcing a federal statutory offence. As stated in subsection 34(2) of the Interpretation Act:

" (2) All the provisions of the Criminal Code relating to indictable offences apply to indictable offences created by an enactment, and all the provisions of that Code relating to summary conviction offences apply to all other offences created by an enactment (emphasis added), except to the extent that the enactment otherwise provides."
Even in the best of circumstances, the summary conviction process systematically uses some of the court's limited time and resources. When an accused person wishes to enter a guilty plea to a summary conviction offence, he or she must proceed with a first appearance in court to enter that plea, which takes up some of the time of the judge (or justice of the peace), prosecutor and court personnel. Simply put, the summary conviction process appears disproportionate, considering the nature of many federal statutory offences.

In sum, the passing of the Act did not create any new federal offences and it did not abolish the summary conviction process as an option for enforcing federal statutory offences. Rather, it added a new option to deal with some of these offences (those designated as contraventions), when circumstances warrant, which is expected to be simpler and more effective.
 
Last edited:

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
3,182
I did go to some immigration lawyers and spent some money. I was not satisfied because half of them said it is not a problem since I was not criminally convicted and half said it was a problem so I am in the grey.
I think IRS fail is under this act because it has a contravention number but I am not sure.

Even in the best of circumstances, the summary conviction process systematically uses some of the court's limited time and resources. When an accused person wishes to enter a guilty plea to a summary conviction offence, he or she must proceed with a first appearance in court to enter that plea, which takes up some of the time of the judge (or justice of the peace), prosecutor and court personnel. Simply put, the summary conviction process appears disproportionate, considering the nature of many federal statutory offences.

In sum, the passing of the Act did not create any new federal offences and it did not abolish the summary conviction process as an option for enforcing federal statutory offences. Rather, it added a new option to deal with some of these offences (those designated as contraventions), when circumstances warrant, which is expected to be simpler and more effective.
If you were currently a Canadian, rather than a Foreign National (FN), based on what you have described I would be quite confident that this one incident would NOT trigger any inadmissibility issues (well, I am not entirely certain, largely because I am not sure what is in the official record, for a Canadian who is a Canadian PR rather than a citizen). But as I recall, you are not a Canadian (not a PR or citizen), but rather a FN, and I simply have not been following inadmissibility litigation involving FNs, so I have very little practical, real case context to help better understand what the law is and how it applies.

And I am not sure there is much case law published online relevant to this situation anyway.

My overall sense is that you are OK. While I am NOT sure about this, if the final disposition is NOT a conviction for either an indictable offence NOR a summary offence, that should mean that this does not make you inadmissible. This would be for sure if you were a PR. I am less certain since you are a FN (which, again, this part of this site is not about . . . this forum is about Canadians, and this particular part is mostly for those Canadians who are still only a PR and are applying for citizenship).

There are other aspects of your situation which are also well OUTSIDE the scope of what I follow and in part understand about admissibility. This severely limits what I can reasonably glean without doing a deep dive into research and analysis, which is beyond what I am prepared to do . . . and would be reluctant to do anyway, since I really am NO expert and as difficult as it can be to research, digest, and understand stand alone provisions in a particular enactment (like IRPA), it is immensely more complex and difficult when multiple enactments are involved, let alone provincial law.

The fact that lawyers have differing, inconsistent views, is a clue: there is some uncertainty.

That said, what is of record in the courts is what matters most, what controls. And if there is no conviction for an "offence" as defined in the Canadian Criminal Code, the odds heavily favour NO admissibility issue.

Analyzing the Effect of the Contraventions Act:

Caveat:
I have NO background in assessing how the provisions of the Contraventions Act are applied or interpreted. As best I can discern, the vast majority of so-called "contraventions" are what other jurisdictions (like U.S. states for example) might label or categorize as "infractions" or "violations," which generally mean provisions that prescribe unlawful actions that are not crimes as such. The simplest version, and the most common that most people are acquainted with, is a parking violation.

As best I can discern, if something is charged as a contravention, there is no charge or conviction for an "offence."

Best I can sort things out, there are those contraventions designated by the Governor General, listed in the Contravention Regulations here: https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-96-313/index.html BUT which do NOT include any provisions which would allow ticketing for driving while impaired as prescribed as a hybrid offence in the Criminal Code. And those contraventions which result from the regulations governing the application of provincial laws to contraventions, which in turn depend on particular provisions of law in the respective provinces. I do NOT understand how the latter works.

So, still, again, as best I can discern, if something is charged as a contravention, be that as listed in the applicable federal regulations, or as prescribed by provincial law, there is no charge or conviction for an "offence."

The only thing that throws me off some is that contraventions (infractions or violations not constituting crimes) do not generally encompass illegal activity that would typically be considered on a par with serious offences that could result in imprisonment for more than two years, let alone ten. I am not familiar with Alberta provincial law at all, so I am not acquainted with what alcohol related driving violations it prescribes as a contravention.

My sense is that the substantive content of statutory provisions regarding contraventions is more complicated than what is needed to understand what constitutes inadmissibility for either PRs or FNs. For acts committed IN Canada, it should be fairly clear whether an offence under the Criminal Code is charged, and even more clear once there is a conviction. Once there is a final disposition, in particular, it should be clear whether there is a conviction for an "offence" as defined in the Criminal Code (well, there are some prescribed by other enactments, but there should be no ambiguity or confusion regarding those), and precisely what that particular offence is.

So, for example, if there is a formal charge filed in court, and particularly if there is a conviction in a court, it should be clear that it is an offence under the Criminal Code, and which offence it is. If it is hybrid offence, it makes a FN inadmissible for criminality. If as a hybrid offence that, if prosecuted by indictment it could be punished by ten years of imprisonment, it makes a FN or a PR, that is either, inadmissible for serious criminality.

So, for example, which appears to be your example, if there is NO conviction for an offence under the Canadian Criminal Code, there is no admissibility issue.

That said, to be clear if this occurred in another country, this is where there is a big difference between Canadian PRs and FNs. Just committing the act of driving with a BAC .08 or more outside Canada, even if NOT convicted, can be grounds for deeming a FN inadmissible in Canada. My sense is that absent a conviction it is not likely that Canadian authorities would do that, determine the FN to be inadmissible, but they could.

More Re Lawyers' Uncertainty or Contrary Opinions:

Yeah, lawyers do not necessarily get things right. But they are the experts. Like doctors. Sometimes it is a good idea to get a second opinion. And even then, that can cause more uncertainty if not confusion. More than a quarter century ago, in another country, I was involved in some complicated litigation and needed a lawyer who really knew their stuff in regards to an issue I knew many lawyers did not understand well, many outright having a wrong view. So it took some serious homework and shopping around to find the lawyer I needed, and it cost more than most of the others. I am a bit fortunate in that I do have an extensive, in-depth and professional background in jurisprudence, so if I am willing, and have the sources and the time, I can do enough homework to better select a lawyer, and help the lawyer help me . . . which is NOT to say I could do without a lawyer. But, yeah, sometimes it can be hard work just finding a good lawyer.

Caution Re Researching Law:

There are some key tricks in understanding the application of law that are necessary at a minimum:
-- reading and OBJECTIVELY analyzing the verbatim law itself​
-- extensive research into ACTUAL cases, the in-fact, practical application of law to actual people as reported in official sources and reliable anecdotal sources​
-- recognizing the scope of what is not known, which is difficult since we do not know what we do not know; but in trying to know the law and how it works there are serious and deep pitfalls, and being aware of this, as best one can, is absolutely crucial​

Which takes time, YEARS. Which is why it would be unproductive for me to just dive into researching FN inadmissibility issues. I just plain have not been engaged in that for years. In contrast, I have been following inadmissibility issues for PRs for well over a decade. And I will readily acknowledge that as much as I have been following PR inadmissibility, I am NOWHERE NEAR an expert, NOT close, NOT anywhere near close. To be an expert in this would require being actually engaged in such proceedings, involving personal interaction with those involved, including IRCC and CBSA representatives, Minister's counsel, and IAD panels.
 
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Fuzu

Star Member
Oct 6, 2021
98
2
If you were currently a Canadian, rather than a Foreign National (FN), based on what you have described I would be quite confident that this one incident would NOT trigger any inadmissibility issues (well, I am not entirely certain, largely because I am not sure what is in the official record, for a Canadian who is a Canadian PR rather than a citizen). But as I recall, you are not a Canadian (not a PR or citizen), but rather a FN, and I simply have not been following inadmissibility litigation involving FNs, so I have very little practical, real case context to help better understand what the law is and how it applies.

And I am not sure there is much case law published online relevant to this situation anyway.

My overall sense is that you are OK. While I am NOT sure about this, if the final disposition is NOT a conviction for either an indictable offence NOR a summary offence, that should mean that this does not make you inadmissible. This would be for sure if you were a PR. I am less certain since you are a FN (which, again, this part of this site is not about . . . this forum is about Canadians, and this particular part is mostly for those Canadians who are still only a PR and are applying for citizenship).

There are other aspects of your situation which are also well OUTSIDE the scope of what I follow and in part understand about admissibility. This severely limits what I can reasonably glean without doing a deep dive into research and analysis, which is beyond what I am prepared to do . . . and would be reluctant to do anyway, since I really am NO expert and as difficult as it can be to research, digest, and understand stand alone provisions in a particular enactment (like IRPA), it is immensely more complex and difficult when multiple enactments are involved, let alone provincial law.

The fact that lawyers have differing, inconsistent views, is a clue: there is some uncertainty.

That said, what is of record in the courts is what matters most, what controls. And if there is no conviction for an "offence" as defined in the Canadian Criminal Code, the odds heavily favour NO admissibility issue.

Analyzing the Effect of the Contraventions Act:

Caveat:
I have NO background in assessing how the provisions of the Contraventions Act are applied or interpreted. As best I can discern, the vast majority of so-called "contraventions" are what other jurisdictions (like U.S. states for example) might label or categorize as "infractions" or "violations," which generally mean provisions that prescribe unlawful actions that are not crimes as such. The simplest version, and the most common that most people are acquainted with, is a parking violation.

As best I can discern, if something is charged as a contravention, there is no charge or conviction for an "offence."

Best I can sort things out, there are those contraventions designated by the Governor General, listed in the Contravention Regulations here: https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-96-313/index.html BUT which do NOT include any provisions which would allow ticketing for driving while impaired as prescribed as a hybrid offence in the Criminal Code. And those contraventions which result from the regulations governing the application of provincial laws to contraventions, which in turn depend on particular provisions of law in the respective provinces. I do NOT understand how the latter works.

So, still, again, as best I can discern, if something is charged as a contravention, be that as listed in the applicable federal regulations, or as prescribed by provincial law, there is no charge or conviction for an "offence."

The only thing that throws me off some is that contraventions (infractions or violations not constituting crimes) do not generally encompass illegal activity that would typically be considered on a par with serious offences that could result in imprisonment for more than two years, let alone ten. I am not familiar with Alberta provincial law at all, so I am not acquainted with what alcohol related driving violations it prescribes as a contravention.

My sense is that the substantive content of statutory provisions regarding contraventions is more complicated than what is needed to understand what constitutes inadmissibility for either PRs or FNs. For acts committed IN Canada, it should be fairly clear whether an offence under the Criminal Code is charged, and even more clear once there is a conviction. Once there is a final disposition, in particular, it should be clear whether there is a conviction for an "offence" as defined in the Criminal Code (well, there are some prescribed by other enactments, but there should be no ambiguity or confusion regarding those), and precisely what that particular offence is.

So, for example, if there is a formal charge filed in court, and particularly if there is a conviction in a court, it should be clear that it is an offence under the Criminal Code, and which offence it is. If it is hybrid offence, it makes a FN inadmissible for criminality. If as a hybrid offence that, if prosecuted by indictment it could be punished by ten years of imprisonment, it makes a FN or a PR, that is either, inadmissible for serious criminality.

So, for example, which appears to be your example, if there is NO conviction for an offence under the Canadian Criminal Code, there is no admissibility issue.

That said, to be clear if this occurred in another country, this is where there is a big difference between Canadian PRs and FNs. Just committing the act of driving with a BAC .08 or more outside Canada, even if NOT convicted, can be grounds for deeming a FN inadmissible in Canada. My sense is that absent a conviction it is not likely that Canadian authorities would do that, determine the FN to be inadmissible, but they could.

More Re Lawyers' Uncertainty or Contrary Opinions:

Yeah, lawyers do not necessarily get things right. But they are the experts. Like doctors. Sometimes it is a good idea to get a second opinion. And even then, that can cause more uncertainty if not confusion. More than a quarter century ago, in another country, I was involved in some complicated litigation and needed a lawyer who really knew their stuff in regards to an issue I knew many lawyers did not understand well, many outright having a wrong view. So it took some serious homework and shopping around to find the lawyer I needed, and it cost more than most of the others. I am a bit fortunate in that I do have an extensive, in-depth and professional background in jurisprudence, so if I am willing, and have the sources and the time, I can do enough homework to better select a lawyer, and help the lawyer help me . . . which is NOT to say I could do without a lawyer. But, yeah, sometimes it can be hard work just finding a good lawyer.

Caution Re Researching Law:

There are some key tricks in understanding the application of law that are necessary at a minimum:
-- reading and OBJECTIVELY analyzing the verbatim law itself​
-- extensive research into ACTUAL cases, the in-fact, practical application of law to actual people as reported in official sources and reliable anecdotal sources​
-- recognizing the scope of what is not known, which is difficult since we do not know what we do not know; but in trying to know the law and how it works there are serious and deep pitfalls, and being aware of this, as best one can, is absolutely crucial​

Which takes time, YEARS. Which is why it would be unproductive for me to just dive into researching FN inadmissibility issues. I just plain have not been engaged in that for years. In contrast, I have been following inadmissibility issues for PRs for well over a decade. And I will readily acknowledge that as much as I have been following PR inadmissibility, I am NOWHERE NEAR an expert, NOT close, NOT anywhere near close. To be an expert in this would require being actually engaged in such proceedings, involving personal interaction with those involved, including IRCC and CBSA representatives, Minister's counsel, and IAD panels.
Thanks a lot for your insights
 

Amrou5789

Newbie
Dec 15, 2023
5
1
Hi,

As always thanks again for your awesome reply. Regarding your last comment about the CBSA PR inadmissibility, I was asked if I knew about the potential inadmissibility for the ongoing case at the border when I was coming back from my home country this year. So, that means CBSA does know about my charge and is well aware of the inadmissibility, I presume.
Did you recieve an outcome. I had a meeting with citizenship officer recently. They’ve put a hold on my citizenship application pending an outcome. Their explanation was that CBSA is tracking my case pending an outcome even when I’m being tried as a summary conviction. We thoroughly discussed the chances that it would trigger inadmissibility and their response was it might and it might not but they assured me that they’ve never witnessed such case of a single occurrence of DUI summary conviction that has no aggravating factors. Moreover, they gave me the fingers crossed that would not happen. Yet that left me unsettled when I left. I believe I’ll be seeking an immigration lawyer and prepare for worst case scenario given how grave the situation is.
If anyone had a similar case or went through something like that let us know how did it go!