CIC should revise this express entry system

[katja2684]

For some jobs you just simply cannot prove there's no suitable local candidate.the problem is you have to document everything about the interview process,and cannot reject a local applicant just because you're planning to hire a foreigner.

 

[mf4361]

Well, you could be very well right because what I said is based on my knowledge of the process in the UK. However, as far as I know, only way to prove that employer is unable to find a local candidate is show that they've tried to hire someone locally for a month or so but couldn't find a suitable candidate. And of course they've to provide documents such as proof that job was advertised for required duration and candidates were given a fair consideration.

However, I agree that those holding PG Work Permit should be given exemption from LMIA if they are already working for that employer and they are working for a skilled job and paid above national average for that job!

Unless there is absolutely no application of your job, ESDC can question the interview process of the Canadian candidate and look for reasons of hiring him/her instead. If your employer can't satisfy ESDC people, they will reject the LMIA process.

 

[Clever.Thinker]

Itainttrue, I completely feel your pain and I agree with a lot of the things you´ve said. I am a Canadian citizen who can´t believe what is becoming of the Canada I grew up in. This is not the Canada that was built on values where we saw immigrants as valuable and as new Canadians. Sadly, this seems to be the doing of the political discourse and the political decisions that are being made and set in place since 2006, by a very different group than that which established the Canadian Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms, the Multiculturalism Act, and Universal Health Care, things that most Canadians feel distinguish us from our neighbours in the south and that make us proud.

I don´t think many people in this forum understand how things really worked in Canada before 2006 when everything began to change. Before, you would never hear political discourses on how immigrants or temporary workers were taking jobs from Canadians. Just last year I received a flyer at my home saying that if chosen again, they would ensure temporary workers would no longer be taking jobs away from Canadians. Never in my life I would have believed that in the Canada I love I would hear a message - a written message- demonizing a group of people who are not culprits, but who are rather victims, since people would do anything to survive, even work for what seems to us Canadians a few miserable dollars. The real culprits are the people who dare to offer a job that pays so little and want to take advantage of people who are disadvantaged or desperate enough, and this just for a more profitable gain. And yet, it is the hardworking temporary workers who are the ones blamed, who are the enemies and the devils for doing the jobs we don´t want to do. Sad to see how people´s god is money and ethnocentrism and not fairness and justice.

I, like you, question this system that seems to say one thing and does another.

How come the message is "CIC selects candidates that are most likely to succeed in Canada, rather than the first in line", but they do not fully recognize or award enough points for the primary key elements that make a person more likely to succeed in Canada, which are that:

1. Your credentials are recognized by Canadian employers and professional associations, without having to be evaluated. This just blows my mind, since you got educated in our schools and universities, we MUST keep you!! Don´t we think as Canadians that our educational system is one of the best in the world?? And yet, we are putting through this stress and even rejecting those who have invested into our education system and whom WE have trained and are a sure fit for our economy!!

2. You have Canadian work experience. Getting Canadian work experience has historically been one of the most difficult requirements immigrants have had to attain in order to meet the employers´requirements of job candidates. But, my goodness, you and all PGWP holders already have that, proving that you CAN compete with other Canadians as qualified as yourself, that you CAN do and keep a job in Canada and that Canadian employers WANT you!! This also proves that you are able to work according to the work and cultural standards of Canada!!!

3. And 3, You already have a Job!!!! Meaning that you and PGWP workers can compete to get a job, retain the job and be a valuable contributor to our economy!!! Yet the acknowledgement that PGWP workers have demonstrated that they can get and can retain a job and can also support the systems we value as Canadians (Universal Health Care, social programs, etc.) in spite of huge disadvantages compared to Canadians and permanent residents is null!!! PGWP workers have MADE IT, in spite of paying double/triple for our education, learning another language, having no social or family support networks, and YET, you surpassed, you outpaced the ones who were born here or had all the permits that would more than likely have allowed them to surpass you!!! This category of immigrants is the one we want here, I´d say!!

How are PGWPs already not deemed likely to succeed in Canada as is???? It just blows my mind.

And to answer to the rest of you in this thread, itaintrue is simply expressing his despair at the current situation. Most of you ask how was he not able to get PR before, and maybe you don´t know that in order to secure a PR, you FIRST need to become ELIGIBLE, not live here for a certain amount of time.

In itaintrue´s case, as it is the case of so many others, he came very young, meaning that he or others in his position could NOT become PR:

1. By "just completing" high school. If you wanted PR, you needed to get a post-secondary education FIRST. That meant, having studied high-school and then between 2 to 5 years to get a diploma or a degree, without even getting a Masters. Just right there, he had to have studied between 8 to 9 years. And if he needed some other courses or education, you need to add this to that.

2. After getting his post-secondary education, he needed to get a job, but not JUST ANY job. He needed to get a job in 0, A or B Noc, and his job NEEDED to be full-time, non-seasonal and permanent, and NO, he couldn´t get paid less than a Canadian, he needed to get paid at least the minimum according to the Government of Canada Wage Report in order for his job to make him eligible. This means that he competed fairly against any other Canadian, and got his job because he was MORE qualified, NOT because he accepted a job that paid less.

3. He needed to have worked for at least 1 year in a 0, A or B Noc. If he got this specific kind of job that would make him eligible right away, great. But if he needed to apply over and over again to get this specific sort of job, it must have taken him much more that a few months, maybe even close to a year.

4. Itainttrue, as many other Canadians, never believed things in Canada would change. He came to a Canada very different than that of today. A Canada that was welcoming, not a Canada that puts one group against the other, and that is secretive, hermetic and inscrutable.

Itainttrue, I can almost assure you that MANY, if not MOST of the people who replied to your thread so harshly, have been in Canada only for a few years, and therefore, cannot understand what it is to build a life here. They came only to study a post-secondary career, and therefore, they had the opportunity to study their high school, even a first degree, in their home countries, and their connections are THERE, and their work and life experience are THERE, not here. You, on the other hand, have made connections here, you have built a life here, you became Canadian here but have no document to prove it, hence your huge disappointment, stress and frustration with a system that "says" one thing, but really does another.

As a Canadian, I pray that you will become legally the Canadian that you already are, and that you show your generosity to others who have gone through the same situation as you have. Do everything you can to be selected, move to another province, submit your application to BC, or somewhere else, improve your score. But DON´T KEEP STILL. It is survivors like you, whom I would want to call my countryman and whom I would like to be part of our Canada.

My prayers are with you and with all those that are in your position.

 

[Jaxon911]

Unless there is absolutely no application of your job, ESDC can question the interview process of the Canadian candidate and look for reasons of hiring him/her instead. If your employer can't satisfy ESDC people, they will reject the LMIA process.

ok that sounds fairly strict! I think they should change it to something similar to that of USA!

If an employer is willing to sponsor a candidate in a skilled job with decent salary, process should be contain just few a hassles and bit of cost!

IMHO, a sponsored candidate even with an easier LMIA process is on an average better one from economic perspective than one like myself who got PR straight away thru FSW!

This is because a sponsored candidate will have Canadian experience on his CV straight away, and of course will also have financial stability straight away because (s)he has a job! So sponsored candidates are on an average more likely to succeed in their plans to migrate than pretty much anyone else.

 

[erguan]

The point is simple, Canada needs a good way to choose a person based on the need of labor market, hence LMIA is what needed.

Education is part of LMIA requirement, but *not only*...

Can US president get Canadian PR, he has good education, he has strong management skill and ....
No, Canada has enough candidates to be president.

Itainttrue, I completely feel your pain and I agree with a lot of the things you´ve said. I am a Canadian citizen who can´t believe what is becoming of the Canada I grew up in. This is not the Canada that was built on values where we saw immigrants as valuable and as new Canadians. Sadly, this seems to be the doing of the political discourse and the political decisions that are being made and set in place since 2006, by a very different group than that which established the Canadian Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms, the Multiculturalism Act, and Universal Health Care, things that most Canadians feel distinguish us from our neighbours in the south and that make us proud.

I don´t think many people in this forum understand how things really worked in Canada before 2006 when everything began to change. Before, you would never hear political discourses on how immigrants or temporary workers were taking jobs from Canadians. Just last year I received a flyer at my home saying that if chosen again, they would ensure temporary workers would no longer be taking jobs away from Canadians. Never in my life I would have believed that in the Canada I love I would hear a message - a written message- demonizing a group of people who are not culprits, but who are rather victims, since people would do anything to survive, even work for what seems to us Canadians a few miserable dollars. The real culprits are the people who dare to offer a job that pays so little and want to take advantage of people who are disadvantaged or desperate enough, and this just for a more profitable gain. And yet, it is the hardworking temporary workers who are the ones blamed, who are the enemies and the devils for doing the jobs we don´t want to do. Sad to see how people´s god is money and ethnocentrism and not fairness and justice.

I, like you, question this system that seems to say one thing and does another.

How come the message is "CIC selects candidates that are most likely to succeed in Canada, rather than the first in line", but they do not fully recognize or award enough points for the primary key elements that make a person more likely to succeed in Canada, which are that:

1. Your credentials are recognized by Canadian employers and professional associations, without having to be evaluated. This just blows my mind, since you got educated in our schools and universities, we MUST keep you!! Don´t we think as Canadians that our educational system is one of the best in the world?? And yet, we are putting through this stress and even rejecting those who have invested into our education system and whom WE have trained and are a sure fit for our economy!!

2. You have Canadian work experience. Getting Canadian work experience has historically been one of the most difficult requirements immigrants have had to attain in order to meet the employers´requirements of job candidates. But, my goodness, you and all PGWP holders already have that, proving that you CAN compete with other Canadians as qualified as yourself, that you CAN do and keep a job in Canada and that Canadian employers WANT you!! This also proves that you are able to work according to the work and cultural standards of Canada!!!

3. And 3, You already have a Job!!!! Meaning that you and PGWP workers can compete to get a job, retain the job and be a valuable contributor to our economy!!! Yet the acknowledgement that PGWP workers have demonstrated that they can get and can retain a job and can also support the systems we value as Canadians (Universal Health Care, social programs, etc.) in spite of huge disadvantages compared to Canadians and permanent residents is null!!! PGWP workers have MADE IT, in spite of paying double/triple for our education, learning another language, having no social or family support networks, and YET, you surpassed, you outpaced the ones who were born here or had all the permits that would more than likely have allowed them to surpass you!!! This category of immigrants is the one we want here, I´d say!!

How are PGWPs already not deemed likely to succeed in Canada as is???? It just blows my mind.

And to answer to the rest of you in this thread, itaintrue is simply expressing his despair at the current situation. Most of you ask how was he not able to get PR before, and maybe you don´t know that in order to secure a PR, you FIRST need to become ELIGIBLE, not live here for a certain amount of time.

In itaintrue´s case, as it is the case of so many others, he came very young, meaning that he or others in his position could NOT become PR:

1. By "just completing" high school. If you wanted PR, you needed to get a post-secondary education FIRST. That meant, having studied high-school and then between 2 to 5 years to get a diploma or a degree, without even getting a Masters. Just right there, he had to have studied between 8 to 9 years. And if he needed some other courses or education, you need to add this to that.

2. After getting his post-secondary education, he needed to get a job, but not JUST ANY job. He needed to get a job in 0, A or B Noc, and his job NEEDED to be full-time, non-seasonal and permanent, and NO, he couldn´t get paid less than a Canadian, he needed to get paid at least the minimum according to the Government of Canada Wage Report in order for his job to make him eligible. This means that he competed fairly against any other Canadian, and got his job because he was MORE qualified, NOT because he accepted a job that paid less.

3. He needed to have worked for at least 1 year in a 0, A or B Noc. If he got this specific kind of job that would make him eligible right away, great. But if he needed to apply over and over again to get this specific sort of job, it must have taken him much more that a few months, maybe even close to a year.

4. Itainttrue, as many other Canadians, never believed things in Canada would change. He came to a Canada very different than that of today. A Canada that was welcoming, not a Canada that puts one group against the other, and that is secretive, hermetic and inscrutable.

Itainttrue, I can almost assure you that MANY, if not MOST of the people who replied to your thread so harshly, have been in Canada only for a few years, and therefore, cannot understand what it is to build a life here. They came only to study a post-secondary career, and therefore, they had the opportunity to study their high school, even a first degree, in their home countries, and their connections are THERE, and their work and life experience are THERE, not here. You, on the other hand, have made connections here, you have built a life here, you became Canadian here but have no document to prove it, hence your huge disappointment, stress and frustration with a system that "says" one thing, but really does another.

As a Canadian, I pray that you will become legally the Canadian that you already are, and that you show your generosity to others who have gone through the same situation as you have. Do everything you can to be selected, move to another province, submit your application to BC, or somewhere else, improve your score. But DON´T KEEP STILL. It is survivors like you, whom I would want to call my countryman and whom I would like to be part of our Canada.

My prayers are with you and with all those that are in your position.

 

[xlnc20]

In all fairness it seems like you are the one who doesn't get it. CIC set there language requirements and these must be met, so in this case there is no such thing as "poor language skills"

A PGWP job is "less valid" as you put it because a PGWP is an open permit and so a PGWP holder can take ANY job, it does not have to be in any particular NOC category.

In the past there was abuse of the LMIA (LMO) system, however, those brought in on LMIAs have to be paid at similar levels as Canadians and PR according to the LMIA and an employer who breaches that is penalised if this is brought to the notice of appropriate agencies.

You should know how difficult it is to get an LMIA ( you stated that this is the reason your employer can't get meet the requirements to get you one) yet you devalue its importance to those who have gone through the trouble and expense to get one.

I don't know what you mean by crappy jobs but since EE is applicable to CEC, FSW and FST then it stands to reason that people with "crappy jobs " as you term it would not qualify.

As it relates to your point about skill, you should know that an ITA does not equal PR. The application will be processed under the rules of the applicable program and every criteria will be assessed.

You really need to take a step back and look at the big picture because it seems that your fundamental understanding of how this is supposed to work is a bit flawed.

Well said..!!

 

[mf4361]

ok that sounds fairly strict! I think they should change it to something similar to that of USA!

If an employer is willing to sponsor a candidate in a skilled job with decent salary, process should be contain just few a hassles and bit of cost!

IMHO, a sponsored candidate even with an easier LMIA process is on an average better one from economic perspective than one like myself who got PR straight away thru FSW!

This is because a sponsored candidate will have Canadian experience on his CV straight away, and of course will also have financial stability straight away because (s)he has a job! So sponsored candidates are on an average more likely to succeed in their plans to migrate than pretty much anyone else.

My employer had hired some people using LMO and SINP, they had a 1-hour talk with Service Canada people about the job they are hiring. Yet, the LMO process is considered easy that employers were seeing it as a loophole for hiring foreigners for cheaper than locals.

Now, with LMIA success rate of approval has dropped to <50% of applications. Knowing this fact, plus all the hassle and paperworks and liabilities involved, employers aren't likely to put money and effort into getting a LMIA for their OWP employees.

 

[Clever.Thinker]

The point is simple, Canada needs a good way to choose a person based on the need of labor market, hence LMIA is what needed.

Education is part of LMIA requirement, but *not only*...

Can US president get Canadian PR, he has good education, he has strong management skill and ....
No, Canada has enough candidates to be president.

No, the point is simple, erguan. Itainttrue has a right to dissent and express his opinion. This is a free country and liberty of speech is a fundamental right that is protected by the Canadian Charter of Human Rights, regardless if you are a citizen or a non-citizen. Only in a dictatorship people would try to quiet and condemn a person speaking against any kind of system. Just because people are not a citizen of a country doesn´t mean that they cannot express their opinion regarding the systems set in place in that country, and especially when these are affecting them deeply. A forum is for people to dialogue and discuss an issue, not to quiet the person down and make them conform to the views or the systems of any place or of any group of people.

Furthermore, if the government of Canada wants to safeguard the jobs for Canadians, and they only want to meet their labour needs, what are they doing luring people from all over the world to come to study and invest their money and youth here, and, even more, offering them an open work permit that would allow these alleged "unwanted job-stealing workers" to continue "doing" just that - "taking away" the jobs from Canadians?? And then, when these PGWP workers have spent their money here, have got and secured a job, they now want to have them forfeit or surrender their job, and must CONTINUE to prove that they are "worthy" enough and they are "likely to succeed" through being selected by this system, when they have ALREADY proven that they can compete, secure, retain a job and have contributed to our economy??? It is just absurd. PGWPs should NOT be part of the Express Entry system. They should NOT be selected in the same way and the same standards set for people who have never set foot in Canada, who have not made a life here, and have not proven that they can make it here. These people are trained by Canadians, and have worked with Canadians, and have learned to be Canadians. We WANT people like that, who have already been and continue to be shaped by our values and by our institutions and have adapted.

The government wants to have its cake and eat it too, but life does not work like that. I´d say, stop lying to people just to get them to spend their money here and subsidize what they cannot - education- and play fair. I´d say, stop lying to people saying "you want the bright and the brightest" when in fact you just want to fill low-skilled positions that no Canadian wants to do. And I´d say, stop lying and wasting people´s time, youth, money and hopes. If what you want is low-skilled people to fill the jobs no Canadian wants to do, so be it. But be honest. Don´t try to show the world a facade that makes people around the world think that Canada only wants white-collar workers, when what the government really selects is blue-collar workers. An there is nothing wrong with that. But it is obvious that the government doesn't want Canada to be labelled as a "blue-collar" immigrant destination. That´s what´s problematic, that they are not honest about it.
As Canadians, we think of ourselves as honest, generous, peace-keeping citizens of the world. It is sad to see how they are changing our Canadian narrative, and with it, our culture and the values we value the most.

 

[itainttrue]

No, the point is simple, erguan. Itainttrue has a right to dissent and express his opinion. This is a free country and liberty of speech is a fundamental right that is protected by the Canadian Charter of Human Rights, regardless if you are a citizen or a non-citizen. Only in a dictatorship people would try to quiet and condemn a person speaking against any kind of system. Just because people are not a citizen of a country doesn´t mean that they cannot express their opinion regarding the systems set in place in that country, and especially when these are affecting them deeply. A forum is for people to dialogue and discuss an issue, not to quiet the person down and make them conform to the views or the systems of any place or of any group of people.

Furthermore, if the government of Canada wants to safeguard the jobs for Canadians, and they only want to meet their labour needs, what are they doing luring people from all over the world to come to study and invest their money and youth here, and, even more, offering them an open work permit that would allow these alleged "unwanted job-stealing workers" to continue "doing" just that - "taking away" the jobs from Canadians?? And then, when these PGWP workers have spent their money here, have got and secured a job, they now want to have them forfeit or surrender their job, and must CONTINUE to prove that they are "worthy" enough and they are "likely to succeed" through being selected by this system, when they have ALREADY proven that they can compete, secure, retain a job and have contributed to our economy??? It is just absurd. PGWPs should NOT be part of the Express Entry system. They should NOT be selected in the same way and the same standards set for people who have never set foot in Canada, who have not made a life here, and have not proven that they can make it here. These people are trained by Canadians, and have worked with Canadians, and have learned to be Canadians. We WANT people like that, who have already been and continue to be shaped by our values and by our institutions and have adapted.

The government wants to have its cake and eat it too, but life does not work like that. I´d say, stop lying to people just to get them to spend their money here and subsidize what they cannot - education- and play fair. I´d say, stop lying to people saying "you want the bright and the brightest" when in fact you just want to fill low-skilled positions that no Canadian wants to do. And I´d say, stop lying and wasting people´s time, youth, money and hopes. If what you want is low-skilled people to fill the jobs no Canadian wants to do, so be it. But be honest. Don´t try to show the world a facade that makes people around the world think that Canada only wants white-collar workers, when what the government really selects is blue-collar workers. An there is nothing wrong with that. But it is obvious that the government doesn't want Canada to be labelled as a "blue-collar" immigrant destination. That´s what´s problematic, that they are not honest about it.
As Canadians, we think of ourselves as honest, generous, peace-keeping citizens of the world. It is sad to see how they are changing our Canadian narrative, and with it, our culture and the values we value the most.

Thank you, Clever.Thinker.
I have no doubt that a lot of those people in this thread who wants me quiet for expressing my opinion towards the new system are either people who only lived in this country for a few years or people from CIC/conservative party.

They fail to understand the despair of all those who are in my shoes that have spent nearly half of their entire lives in this country, grew up just like any other "Canadians" here, spent a fortune on the tuition, and worked their ass off to prove that they have what it takes to succeed in this society.
These people also fail to realize that Canada had advertised that they are looking for people who are mostly likely to succeed in Canada(ones who had Canadian Education, Canadian work experience, possess good language skills in English, etc) for over a decade until the recent change.

These people, yet again, just like the conservatives, fail to realize that we PGWP holders are not taking any jobs away from Canadians.
If anything, WE are the ones who are really "filling the skill gap in the labour market" because we showed the companies in Canada that we are more qualified despite the huge disadvantage we have against Canadians/PRs here, not those people who "agreed" to take jobs that no Canadians would.

It's exactly like you said, Clever.Thinker. I've spoken to many Canadians around me and NONE of them views PGWP holders as unwanted job-stealers, unlike what the conservatives and these people are claiming.

A lot of those people in this thread say that other people deserve a fair chance as well and say that growing up in Canada, getting Canadian education, getting Canadian experience doesn't prove that you are a better candidate.
Then let me ask them this, are PGWP holders getting a fair treatment under the new system then?

I don't care if the Canadian government wants low skilled people over high skilled people. They have all the right to do whatever with their system.
The real reason that people like me are feeling furious is because they have been, and still are, lying to the outside world that they WANT people like me.

does any of you who tried to shut me up and conform to your views understand what it feels like to finally realize, that after spending half of your life here, that everything was just a lie?
they have the right to do with whatever they want to do with their system, but they have no right to deceive people and mess with those people's lives.

And I believe I have a right to point out what I think is the flaw with the current system because unlike most of you who've been in this country for only a couple of years, I actually think of Canada as my "home" country now.
Just like Clever.Thinker said, I don't happen to have the documents to prove that I'm a citizen of this country but this is where most of my memories are and this is the country I've contributed the most to.
In fact, I belive people like me are more "Canadian" than people who have gotten their PRs after only spending a couple of years in Canada.

 

[dobes]

No, the point is simple, erguan. Itainttrue has a right to dissent and express his opinion. This is a free country and liberty of speech is a fundamental right that is protected by the Canadian Charter of Human Rights, regardless if you are a citizen or a non-citizen. Only in a dictatorship people would try to quiet and condemn a person speaking against any kind of system. Just because people are not a citizen of a country doesn´t mean that they cannot express their opinion regarding the systems set in place in that country, and especially when these are affecting them deeply. A forum is for people to dialogue and discuss an issue, not to quiet the person down and make them conform to the views or the systems of any place or of any group of people.

Furthermore, if the government of Canada wants to safeguard the jobs for Canadians, and they only want to meet their labour needs, what are they doing luring people from all over the world to come to study and invest their money and youth here, and, even more, offering them an open work permit that would allow these alleged "unwanted job-stealing workers" to continue "doing" just that - "taking away" the jobs from Canadians?? And then, when these PGWP workers have spent their money here, have got and secured a job, they now want to have them forfeit or surrender their job, and must CONTINUE to prove that they are "worthy" enough and they are "likely to succeed" through being selected by this system, when they have ALREADY proven that they can compete, secure, retain a job and have contributed to our economy??? It is just absurd. PGWPs should NOT be part of the Express Entry system. They should NOT be selected in the same way and the same standards set for people who have never set foot in Canada, who have not made a life here, and have not proven that they can make it here. These people are trained by Canadians, and have worked with Canadians, and have learned to be Canadians. We WANT people like that, who have already been and continue to be shaped by our values and by our institutions and have adapted.

The government wants to have its cake and eat it too, but life does not work like that. I´d say, stop lying to people just to get them to spend their money here and subsidize what they cannot - education- and play fair. I´d say, stop lying to people saying "you want the bright and the brightest" when in fact you just want to fill low-skilled positions that no Canadian wants to do. And I´d say, stop lying and wasting people´s time, youth, money and hopes. If what you want is low-skilled people to fill the jobs no Canadian wants to do, so be it. But be honest. Don´t try to show the world a facade that makes people around the world think that Canada only wants white-collar workers, when what the government really selects is blue-collar workers. An there is nothing wrong with that. But it is obvious that the government doesn't want Canada to be labelled as a "blue-collar" immigrant destination. That´s what´s problematic, that they are not honest about it.
As Canadians, we think of ourselves as honest, generous, peace-keeping citizens of the world. It is sad to see how they are changing our Canadian narrative, and with it, our culture and the values we value the most.

Yup. One thing that gets me angry about this is that the Canadian higher education system absolutely depends on the very high tuition it charges international students to keep going. Tuition for Canadians is miniscule compared to what foreigners pay. And the reason many of those foreigners and their families pay that tuition is to give the student a chance for a better life in Canada.

Now, the Canadian government is SAYING it wants to hire those who were educated here, those who are highly educated abroad, and those who have shown they can adapt to Canadian society because they have done it before -- but then they are giving far more points to those who will take jobs Canadians don't want, or who have jobs there are not enough Canadians to do. Many (but certainly not all) of the people with LMIAs have less education and lower language skills than those with Canadian educations or experience. If the economy changes, they will be less adaptable, and more likely to need help from the government. Plugging holes in the Canadian economy is a temporary fix, while attracting highly educated, English and/or French-fluent, adaptable people will grow the Canadian economy and reputation. But apparently that's not what's wanted any more.

 

[mf4361]

In addition, my personal believe, PNP will take much much more significant impact to the score than LMIA.

Yes, only if provinces are ready to launch at the time EE launches.

Right now, 4 full months after EE starts, only BC is giving out CRS-points-eligible PNP nominations. Few others (E.g. AB, ON) don't even have a plan released to the public.

If the provinces aren't ready to go, maybe CIC should hold onto the old system until they are. They should have been notified long before it announces and reacted accordingly. It looks like most provinces have heard about the Express entry program the same ways and same time as we did.

 

[mf4361]

450 is high score. Candidate pass now will also pass when PNP+EE is ready. disagree?

Where did you come up with 450?

There are too many people who are just as qualify as those who have LMIA, just as demanded in a particular province, but don't have the 600 points to clear the 453+ mark, unless it drops later. Of course those above 453 have clear the mark and went on.

 

[The_Distant_One]

Thank you, Clever.Thinker.
I have no doubt that a lot of those people in this thread who wants me quiet for expressing my opinion towards the new system are either people who only lived in this country for a few years or people from CIC/conservative party.

They fail to understand the despair of all those who are in my shoes that have spent nearly half of their entire lives in this country, grew up just like any other "Canadians" here, spent a fortune on the tuition, and worked their ass off to prove that they have what it takes to succeed in this society.
These people also fail to realize that Canada had advertised that they are looking for people who are mostly likely to succeed in Canada(ones who had Canadian Education, Canadian work experience, possess good language skills in English, etc) for over a decade until the recent change.

These people, yet again, just like the conservatives, fail to realize that we PGWP holders are not taking any jobs away from Canadians.
If anything, WE are the ones who are really "filling the skill gap in the labour market" because we showed the companies in Canada that we are more qualified despite the huge disadvantage we have against Canadians/PRs here, not those people who "agreed" to take jobs that no Canadians would.

It's exactly like you said, Clever.Thinker. I've spoken to many Canadians around me and NONE of them views PGWP holders as unwanted job-stealers, unlike what the conservatives and these people are claiming.

A lot of those people in this thread say that other people deserve a fair chance as well and say that growing up in Canada, getting Canadian education, getting Canadian experience doesn't prove that you are a better candidate.
Then let me ask them this, are PGWP holders getting a fair treatment under the new system then?

I don't care if the Canadian government wants low skilled people over high skilled people. They have all the right to do whatever with their system.
The real reason that people like me are feeling furious is because they have been, and still are, lying to the outside world that they WANT people like me.

does any of you who tried to shut me up and conform to your views understand what it feels like to finally realize, that after spending half of your life here, that everything was just a lie?
they have the right to do with whatever they want to do with their system, but they have no right to deceive people and mess with those people's lives.

And I believe I have a right to point out what I think is the flaw with the current system because unlike most of you who've been in this country for only a couple of years, I actually think of Canada as my "home" country now.
Just like Clever.Thinker said, I don't happen to have the documents to prove that I'm a citizen of this country but this is where most of my memories are and this is the country I've contributed the most to.
In fact, I belive people like me are more "Canadian" than people who have gotten their PRs after only spending a couple of years in Canada.

I know youi said previously but I find it strange you hadnt got your PR before this. But anyway

These people, yet again, just like the conservatives, fail to realize that we PGWP holders are not taking any jobs away from Canadians.
If anything, WE are the ones who are really "filling the skill gap in the labour market" because we showed the companies in Canada that we are more qualified despite the huge disadvantage we have against Canadians/PRs here, not those people who "agreed" to take jobs that no Canadians would.

you might consider yourself more qualified, but that is a big difference to saying that you havent taken a Canadians job. Just cause you are more qualified does not mean a canadian couldn't do you job. You were just the best applicant at the time. If you werent there they would have hired someone else which would most likely been a Canadian. If you were the only one who could do your job as good as you then you should be easily be able to get an LMIA, once again obviously your work doesnt think you are worth it so obviously they will just replace you with a more suitable candidate.

Once again canada can and has chosen to do what they like with their immigration system. Just cause you think you should be eligilble doesnt actually change the fact this system is used around the world.

And they haven't lied about who they want, they want people who fit into the system that have the skills that they deem desirable. Just cause we dont fit into this definition doesnt mean its wrong.

If canadians really agreed with you they would be writing to their members of parliment and saying they will be voting for someone else unless they system is fixed.... but i doubt any of them are going to do that. so really they are lying to you.

Yes the system has been tough on you but i dont believe in the last decade that you have been here you havent had the opportunity to get in under the old system.

 

[ButterflyChemist]

Yup. One thing that gets me angry about this is that the Canadian higher education system absolutely depends on the very high tuition it charges international students to keep going. Tuition for Canadians is miniscule compared to what foreigners pay. And the reason many of those foreigners and their families pay that tuition is to give the student a chance for a better life in Canada.

Now, the Canadian government is SAYING it wants to hire those who were educated here, those who are highly educated abroad, and those who have shown they can adapt to Canadian society because they have done it before -- but then they are giving far more points to those who will take jobs Canadians don't want, or who have jobs there are not enough Canadians to do. Many (but certainly not all) of the people with LMIAs have less education and lower language skills than those with Canadian educations or experience. If the economy changes, they will be less adaptable, and more likely to need help from the government. Plugging holes in the Canadian economy is a temporary fix, while attracting highly educated, English and/or French-fluent, adaptable people will grow the Canadian economy and reputation. But apparently that's not what's wanted any more.

I think the fundamental issue with the argument that, for want of a better expression, begrudges LMIA holders the additional 600 points is that EE applies to economic immigration programs that apply to highly skilled people. Generally speaking the temporary foreign workers who are taking the (LMIA) jobs no Canadian wants cannot qualify for FSW etc. Those workers usually have to go through PNP schemes which are pretty difficult and have long wait times etc.

PGWPs being work permits could get you any jobs including the so called "crappy" ones that one Canadian wants. And according to my understanding the feeling is that people with those jobs should not get PR. Using a job to determine someone's qualifications is not always accurate. Many skilled people come to Canada through FSW and then find themselves unable to get jobs in their fields. They end up having to take less than ideal jobs so they and their families can survive. CIC is trying to avoid this.

As I keep saying, there's space enough for everyone.

 

[itainttrue]

I know youi said previously but I find it strange you hadnt got your PR before this. But anyway

These people, yet again, just like the conservatives, fail to realize that we PGWP holders are not taking any jobs away from Canadians.
If anything, WE are the ones who are really "filling the skill gap in the labour market" because we showed the companies in Canada that we are more qualified despite the huge disadvantage we have against Canadians/PRs here, not those people who "agreed" to take jobs that no Canadians would.

you might consider yourself more qualified, but that is a big difference to saying that you havent taken a Canadians job. Just cause you are more qualified does not mean a canadian couldn't do you job. You were just the best applicant at the time. If you werent there they would have hired someone else which would most likely been a Canadian. If you were the only one who could do your job as good as you then you should be easily be able to get an LMIA, once again obviously your work doesnt think you are worth it so obviously they will just replace you with a more suitable candidate.

Once again canada can and has chosen to do what they like with their immigration system. Just cause you think you should be eligilble doesnt actually change the fact this system is used around the world.

And they haven't lied about who they want, they want people who fit into the system that have the skills that they deem desirable. Just cause we dont fit into this definition doesnt mean its wrong.

If canadians really agreed with you they would be writing to their members of parliment and saying they will be voting for someone else unless they system is fixed.... but i doubt any of them are going to do that. so really they are lying to you.

Yes the system has been tough on you but i dont believe in the last decade that you have been here you havent had the opportunity to get in under the old system.

wow...you make me repeat the same thing over and over and over again.
would you please at least read what I wrote before posting your opinion?

How do you find it strange that I haven't gotten my PR yet? Just like Clever.Thinker said, you first need to BECOME ELIGIBLE in order to be considered for a PR, not live here for a certain period of time.
that said, I came to Canada as a 14 year-old kid and after going through secondary and post secondary education, and a year of Canadian work experience, I just became eligible last December.
what is so strange about that?

and NO, you are wrong about my company.
"once again obviously your work doesnt think you are worth it so obviously they will just replace you with a more suitable candidate."
First of all, getting an LMIA for a "LEGIT" Canadian company isn't as easy as you think.
Yes, I'm sure there are Canadians that can replace me, but do the job better than me? I'm not so sure about that. And WHY would a company want to follow the standards that CIC has set up? They don't care if the person they are hiring is an alien as long as he/she is allowed to work in Canada. The ONLY thing companies care is WHO's most qualified. and that's how most of PGWP holders got their jobs in the first place, by having better qualifications than others.
So NO, unlike what you think, my work values me very highly and wants to keep me and support me by all means. But dude, LMIA isn't for all companies.
It's not like they won't apply for it because they don't think you are worth it.
You don't understand a thing about it.

and YES, they have LIED and still is LYING about how they want to welcome those who are "MOST LIKELY TO SUCCEED" in Canadian society. That's what they are advertising to the outside world to lure people to come to Canada to study and spend a fortune on tuitions and etc.
Do you honestly think that people like me, who's spent half of my life here, gone through Canadian secondary and post-secondary educations, gained actual Canadian work experience is less likely to succeed in this society than people who have gotten their ITAs JUST BECAUSE they received LMO/LMIA?
Trust me, I've been lied to and you have absolutely no idea what Canada was like back in the days.

Lastly, you said "If canadians really agreed with you they would be writing to their members of parliment and saying they will be voting for someone else unless they system is fixed.... but i doubt any of them are going to do that. so really they are lying to you."
You are kidding, right? Why would any Canadian take their time to write anything to the government? Just like in any other country, most people don't care or even if they do, not enough so that they feel the need to write something to the government.
Trust me, if there was a survey, you'd be able to see that most Canadians don't think of temporary foreign workers as job-stealers.