"Children Born Abroad to Canadians, May End Up Lost Canadians"

[links18]

That's funny. Because when I see my certificate and my children's certificates, they are identical. I don't see "2nd class Canadian" on my children's certificate.

How can a 2nd generation Canadian with dual citizenship (without the hassle of PR process and no proof required of moving back) with ability to work / live in two or more countries without visas be "2nd class" in comparison to a non-dual canadian who is stuck living/working but need visas to work/live outside Canada.

They can't pass on their citizenship to children born outside the country and must make life decisions accordingly and differently than a natural born Canadian, or they face the ramifications of having children outside the country if they were ignorant of their inability to pass on citizenship to their offspring. Its pretty simple really.

 

[links18]

Right now the "intend to reside clause" I believe do apply to children PR since they are PR themselves. The only exemption is the residency qualification and test. The rest are applied including "intend to reside".

There is no intent to reside clause on the application for Canadian citizenship for a minor. Thus, I don't think it applies and think about it--it is the parent applying for their children's citizenship not the child themselves making the application--so they can't really speak about their minor child's intentions, probably because they are too young to really have any intentions different from their parents' who is a Canadian citizen with freedom of movement.

 

[screech339]

They can't pass on their citizenship to children born outside the country and must make life decisions accordingly and differently than a natural born Canadian, or they face the ramifications of having children outside the country if they were ignorant of their inability to pass on citizenship to their offspring. Its pretty simple really.

So are you saying that before 2009 law, those born under the retention rule are 2nd class Canadian. While they can "pass on" citizenship, their citizenship can been taken away by 28 if not filed for retention. They are not exactly the same as Canadian born, according to you they are 2nd class Canadian since they only have one little thing they don't have as Canadian born do.

Strange that you didn't want to address the comparison I made about 2nd generation Canadians ability to live / work in native country without a visa in comparison to single citizens canadians being stuck in Canada.

Let me ask you this: which would you choose?

1. Ability to live and work outside Canada without any visa required (ie eu citizen) but can't pass on citizenship.

2. Stuck in Canada working / living but need visa to live / work outside Canada (very difficult to get) but has ability to pass on citizenship.

 

[links18]

So are you saying that before 2009 law, those born under the retention rule are 2nd class Canadian. While they can "pass on" citizenship, their citizenship can been taken away by 28 if not filed for retention. They are not exactly the same as Canadian born, according to you they are 2nd class Canadian since they only have one little thing they don't have as Canadian born do.

Strange that you didn't want to address the comparison I made about 2nd generation Canadians ability to live / work in native country without a visa in comparison to single citizens canadians being stuck in Canada.

Let me ask you this: which would you choose?

1. Ability to live and work outside Canada without any visa required (ie eu citizen) but can't pass on citizenship.

2. Stuck in Canada working / living but need visa to live / work outside Canada (very difficult to get) but has ability to pass on citizenship.

Yes, those subject retention rules were also 2nd class Canadians. Absolutely so. The other things you mention are total non-sequiturs to the discussion.

 

[screech339]

Yes, those subject retention rules were also 2nd class Canadians. Absolutely so. The other things you mention are total non-sequiturs to the discussion.

Since you can't choose or won't choose, you proved my point that there is no 2nd class Canadian. While they appear non-sequitur to you, that is the reality of difference between 1st and 2nd generation Canadians.

The reason you don't want to address it is because you refuse to see the forest (big picture) instead of tree.

 

[screech339]

Yes, those subject retention rules were also 2nd class Canadians. Absolutely so. The other things you mention are total non-sequiturs to the discussion.

Funny thing was that they were not seen to be 2nd class Canadians for 32 years. It was never brought up or discussed about it until 2009 law.

 

[links18]

Since you can't choose or won't choose, you proved my point that there is no 2nd class Canadian. While they appear non-sequitur to you, that is the reality of difference between 1st and 2nd generation Canadians.

The reason you don't want to address it is because you refuse to see the forest (big picture) instead of tree.

Uh no, I wont address it--because it has nothing to do with the issue.

 

[links18]

Funny thing was that they were not seen to be 2nd class Canadians for 32 years. It was never brought up or discussed about it until 2009 law.

I bet they felt like 2nd class Canadians to the extent they knew about the requirements.

 

[Leon]

A US citizen can only pass citizenship if they've spent at least 5 years living in the US where at least 2 of those years were after their 14th birthday. So does that mean that US citizens who haven't spent 5 years in the US are 2nd class citizens? Of course they are in a better position though because by spending 5 years, they can rectify their situation. A Canadian by descent can never change that.

 

[links18]

A US citizen can only pass citizenship if they've spent at least 5 years living in the US where at least 2 of those years were after their 14th birthday. So does that mean that US citizens who haven't spent 5 years in the US are 2nd class citizens? Of course they are in a better position though because by spending 5 years, they can rectify their situation. A Canadian by descent can never change that.

Yes, they are. Like I said--it may be practically necessary and even reasonable to have such restrictions, but this does not change the fact that some citizens are differently situated under the law for no other reason than the facts of their births which they did not control. I imagine the courts would say that the inheritance of citizenship is a property that pertains to the child not the parent, so there is no legal discrimination, but that seems like a distinction without practical effect for the parents.

 

[screech339]

Uh no, I wont address it--because it has nothing to do with the issue.

Again you have proved my point that there are no 2nd class Canadians by refusing to address the completely related issue. So until you address the fact that 2nd generation Canadians can legally work / live outside Canada with no visas required, and that 1st generation Canada cannot do this, you have no legitimate reason to discuss who is 2nd class or not.

Besides, this 2nd class BS came about due to stripping of citizenship after conviction of terrorism was added to the list of punishments along with citizenship fraud and spying, nothing to do with 1st and 2nd generation Canadian 2009 law. I guess all these people who feels like they are "2nd class" after terrorism was added probably wants to commit terrorism down the road.

 

[links18]

Again you have proved my point that there are no 2nd class Canadians by refusing to address the completely related issue. So until you address the fact that 2nd generation Canadians can legally work / live outside Canada with no visas required, and that 1st generation Canada cannot do this, you have no legitimate reason to discuss who is 2nd class or not.

Besides, this 2nd class BS came about due to stripping of citizenship due to conviction of terrorism, nothing to do with 1st and 2nd generation Canadian 2009 law.

This discussion is about the equality of Canadian citizenship. It has nothing to do with visas needed to live or work somewhere else. I am not even sure what you are talking about now.

 

[screech339]

This discussion is about the equality of Canadian citizenship. It has nothing to do with visas needed to live or work somewhere else. I am not even sure what you are talking about now.

Yes, you do know. That is why there are little differences between 1st generation and 2nd generation. You do realized that the purposes of creating 1st and 2nd generation Canadians is to prevent generational passing on of citizenship.

I'm all for equality as well. But when a 2nd generation Canadian can live and work outside Canada in comparison to 1st generation that's not equality either.

So it goes back to this reality:

1st generation Canadian cannot live and work outside Canada but can pass on citizenship.

2nd generation Canadian can live / work inside and outside Canada but cannot pass on citizenship.

We basically gave 2nd generation a perk that 1st generation Canadian cannot have. I think this perk is more than generous for the compensation of the lack passing on citizenship.

From what I can tell from you, you want unlimited ability to pass on citizenship for generations, in other words, create "Canadians of Convenience". Sacrifices have to made somewhere in order to prevent passing citizenship on for generations outside Canada. So until you have a better idea in stopping citizenship from being passed on for generations, there is no need to discuss this 2nd class BS that you are creating in your mind.

 

[dpenabill]

1st generation Canadian cannot live and work outside Canada but can pass on citizenship.

This is blatantly not true.

In fact, the reality, is that Canadian law in NO way limits or restricts the capacity of any Canadian to live or work abroad. (Well, of course some Canadians are incarcerated for crimes or such.)

The right to live or work in another country depends on that country's rules and laws.

And, indeed, there may be as many as a half million or more first generation Canadians living or working abroad.

 

[screech339]

This is blatantly not true.

In fact, the reality, is that Canadian law in NO way limits or restricts the capacity of any Canadian to live or work abroad. (Well, of course some Canadians are incarcerated for crimes or such.)

The right to live or work in another country depends on that country's rules and laws.

And, indeed, there may be as many as a half million or more first generation Canadians living or working abroad.

The point is that while there is no limits or restrictions for any Canadians to leave Canada, to live or work in another country, it doesn't change the fact that 1st generation Canadians born still REQUIRE visas to do this, unlike a 2nd generation Canadian who doesn't need visa to live / work outside Canada (ie 2nd generation Canadian EU citizen).

There is a difference in Canadians having rights to leave and enter Canada and Canadian having rights to work / live in the country outside Canada.

Canadian born (no dual) still need a visa or special permission to be able to stay longer than the visitor limit. 2nd generation Canadian with eu citizen doesn't require this. They can live and work longer than visitor stay limit without any visas or special permission, using their eu citizenship passports.