Child born while parents waiting for citizenship

[screech339]

Just curious here. Let say PR parents had a child 2am outside Canada, and the father entered Canada and did the oath and got citizenship at 3pm. I would suspects the child will get citizenship despite both parents were not Canadian at the time of child's birth since there is no time marker on citizenship card. Just the date. This would probably be the only case whereby the child will still get citizenship despite both parents not being canadian at the time of child's birth.

 

[toronto_dun]

The advice for applying for PR makes sense, and that's what I tried to do from the outset, when we took oath (it would have been processed by now). I'm so pissed that when I called CIC to ask what to do about the form written for spouse and asking for things like marriage certificate, they told me very explicitly that I do not need to apply for PR for the child and just need to apply for proof of citizenship, and then did it again when my wife called to double check, and then the third time when I called today to check on the status...

I wonder what would have happened if the child was not a US citizen but a citizen of a country that requires a visa to enter Canada - would they have not let a few month old baby of a Canadian citizen enter the country, especially when her parents legally HAVE to go back to Canada. It's not like babies can survive on their own or timing of their birth can be controlled.

It sucks having to deal with this after 12+ years of living and paying taxes in Canada.

 

[screech339]

The advice for applying for PR makes sense, and that's what I tried to do from the outset, when we took oath (it would have been processed by now). I'm so pissed that when I called CIC to ask what to do about the form written for spouse and asking for things like marriage certificate, they told me very explicitly that I do not need to apply for PR for the child and just need to apply for proof of citizenship, and then did it again when my wife called to double check, and then the third time when I called today to check on the status...

I wonder what would have happened if the child was not a US citizen but a citizen of a country that requires a visa to enter Canada - would they have not let a few month old baby of a Canadian citizen enter the country, especially when her parents legally HAVE to go back to Canada. It's not like babies can survive on their own or timing of their birth can be controlled.

It sucks having to deal with this after 12+ years of living and paying taxes in Canada.

The child would still need to get PR under the old citizenship law regardless of how long you were living and paying taxes in Canada.

It is rather unfortunate for CIC to be giving very bad and wrong advice with your situation. They should have been at least be knowledgeable in that regards. But then again, for some reason, I'm not surprised.

 

[keesio]

I wonder what would have happened if the child was not a US citizen but a citizen of a country that requires a visa to enter Canada - would they have not let a few month old baby of a Canadian citizen enter the country, especially when her parents legally HAVE to go back to Canada. It's not like babies can survive on their own or timing of their birth can be controlled.

Judging from what others have experienced in this forum, it is very likely that CBSA would allow entry of a non-PR baby to Canadian residents, regardless of the nationality of the baby. CBSA is pretty understanding in that regard.

 

[Leon]

This is where it becomes extremely confusing. I tried to apply for her PR but, on three separate calls, CIC reps told me that sponsoring for PR does not apply in this case because children need to be sponsored for PR only when you sponsor a spouse who brings children with. The online questionnaire for sponsoring a dependent also always leads here, where all forms include dependents in addition to spouse: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/sponsor/spouse-apply-how.asp I could not find a form or instructions on how to sponsor a child alone without sponsoring a spouse. So CIC told me to file request for proof of citizenship without filing for PR first. I did that 6 months ago, and today they told me it will take another 2.5 years before it will get reviewed. I asked if I could just adopt her, which takes days to process, they told me no.

This is a common confusion. In order to sponsor a spouse, there is an inland application and an outland application. When a spouse lives with you in Canada, you may use inland or outland. When the spouse is outside Canada, you must use outland. Outland tends to be faster. Inland takes something like 2 years right now.

When it comes to dependent children, there is no form for inland. Just for spouse. If you are sponsoring a spouse as well as children, the inland form will work. If you are sponsoring just a child, someone suggested earlier that you replace the name of the spouse in the inland form with the name of the child. I have no idea if that would work or what the processing time would be. I have never heard of anyone doing that.

The forms for outland can be found here: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/applications/fc.asp

Processing time for a US citizen dependent child is right now 17 months according to CIC but what we have been seeing is more like 6-8 months.

In order to keep your child legal in Canada while you are sponsoring is to apply for extensions of her visitor status or if you choose to cross the border and cross back, ask for a visitor record when you return with her based on that you are sponsoring her for PR. A visitor record takes into account that someone might be staying longer than 6 months. For example they may be able to give you a whole year.

 

[dpenabill]

Foremost, for emphasis: I concur in what screech339, scylla, and Leon have posted. As noted, the situation really is straight-forward.

The reason for my post is two-fold. One is to emphasize that this scenario really is as straight-forward as the posts by screech339, scylla, and Leon indicate. The other is to address the broader implications which, frankly, should be obvious but appear to be easily overlooked, observations more or less aimed at emphasizing the collateral impact of decisions like having a child while outside Canada.


Again, for emphasis, the basics in this situation:

-- a child born outside Canada to PR parents has no status in Canada

-- to get status in Canada, the child must be sponsored to become a PR

-- once the child is a PR, and a parent of the child is a citizen, process for the child to become a citizen is simple


That is the long and short of this scenario:
Child born abroad has no Canadian status.
Parent(s) need to sponsor child's PR (start at http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/sponsor/spouse.asp ).
Once the child is a PR, the child is eligible to apply for citizenship (based on being a PR and having a parent who is a citizen -- start here: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/applications/minors.asp ).

Also for emphasis: status at the time of events is what matters. How soon after the birth the parents expected to become Canadian citizens is totally irrelevant.

The only relevance there is in the parents becoming citizens after the child's birth is that upon the child becoming a PR, a citizen parent can then proceed to apply for the child to be granted citizenship.



General Observation:

This scenario actually happens a lot, a real lot. It appears that many PR parents actually prefer to return to their home country for a child's birth (perhaps due to proximity and support of family, for financial reasons, or some other reason). And more than a few other PRs are otherwise abroad at the time a new child is born, often due to being abroad for employment.

For the OP, the fact that they were in the U.S. rather than, say, in Dubai, is an advantage.

PRs living or working abroad should be cognizant of the implications involved in living abroad. This is especially so regarding important events in life like giving birth to a child. There are risks. Stuff happens.

For example, a child born abroad has no Canadian status (unless the child qualifies for Canadian citizenship by birth). Thus, the future status of a child born abroad to PR parents is entirely dependent on qualifying for status just like any other Foreign National. Family sponsorship opens the door quite wide, but there must be a parent eligible to sponsor, and if something happens precluding the eligibility of the sponsoring parent (including, for example, the accidental death of the sponsoring parent; or going on welfare) before the child actually becomes a PR, the child might not get status in Canada.


Leading to the following --


Further Observation: Effect of child born without status.

I wonder what would have happened if the child was not a US citizen but a citizen of a country that requires a visa to enter Canada - would they have not let a few month old baby of a Canadian citizen enter the country, especially when her parents legally HAVE to go back to Canada. It's not like babies can survive on their own or timing of their birth can be controlled.

It sucks having to deal with this after 12+ years of living and paying taxes in Canada.

No need to wonder what happens if a child born outside Canada to PR parents is not visa-exempt: of course the child would need a visa to come to Canada. And there is no guarantee one will be given. (Far more likely one would be, but there is no guarantee.)

A child born abroad who is not a Canadian citizen by birth is a Foreign National without status in Canada. And is thus subject to all the same laws and regulations and policies governing Foreign Nationals generally. The fact that one or both parents had PR status at the time of the child's birth does not give the child any formal status in Canada. That simple. Nothing in the information provided by IRCC, or previously by CIC, so much as hints otherwise. There really is no reason for any PR to be confused about this. A woman decides where to be during her pregnancy, and thus decides where the child will be born. Anyone who is pregnant should be cognizant of the implications of living abroad during the later stages of a pregnancy.

Generally CBSA and IRCC will be flexible in facilitating the entry into Canada for children born abroad to Canadians; perhaps more so for Canadian citizens than PRs, but generally so for all Canadians (that is PRs as well as citizens). Nonetheless, however, the formalities of immigration must be followed. To enter Canada the child must apply (in practice, a parent must apply on behalf of the child) for permission to enter Canada; for a visa-exempt child this can be accomplished by showing up at a Canadian PoE; for a child who is not visa-exempt, a more formal application for a visa (visitor or TRV) would ordinarily be required. For either to legally remain in Canada, an extension of status should be obtained if the child will continue to stay in Canada beyond the period initially allowed.

Note: it is not as if the government will come looking for the child and pursue deportation proceedings if the child fails (that is, if the parents fail on behalf of the child) to properly obtain status to remain in Canada. The policy in favour of family reunification carries even more weight in this scenario, where a young child is involved. But the sooner the appropriate steps are taken to formalize the child's status in Canada, the easier the process will go, the lower the risk of complications. Moreover, a failure to secure proper status for the child will not result in the child's deportation anyway, not before the child becomes an adult, given H&C considerations in any pre-removal assessment.

But again, the sooner the appropriate steps are taken to formalize the child's status in Canada, the easier the process will go, the lower the risk of complications.

Reminder: the proper steps to formalize the child's status in Canada are:
-- secure temporary status to remain in Canada, with extensions as necessary
-- apply for child's PR status in a sponsored family class PR visa application
-- upon obtaining PR status, applying for the child's citizenship

In regard to the inconvenience of this process. There is no basis for blaming Canada or its immigration system for this. A woman decides where to be during her pregnancy, and thus decides where the child will be born. The government of Canada has no involvement in that decision.

 

[links18]

I imagine saying a "woman decides where she will be when she is pregnant," is not going to come off very feminist or politically correct Dpenabill. There are many factors involved in these situations--probably economic, financial and familial that limit the absolute freedom of geographic choice you seem to think exists. Moreover, I think in many cases the male spouse's decisions have something to do with where the pregnant female is during those nine months, especially when there is a situation of social and economic dependence. I'd expect a little better from someone with "Marxist leanings." Peace Out!

 

[Leon]

No need to wonder what happens if a child born outside Canada to PR parents is not visa-exempt: of course the child would need a visa to come to Canada. And there is no guarantee one will be given. (Far more likely one would be, but there is no guarantee.)

You'd be surprised how often non-PR babies of PR parents are denied a TRV based on it not being the intention for them to just visit. Basically a VO is not supposed to grant a TRV unless it is for a visit. The parents can in those cases apply for a TRP if they know about it but sometimes it is denied too, leaving the couple no choice but to live separately while one settles in Canada and sponsors the child and the other waits with the child in their country of origin.

As for the pregnant woman choosing where to be, yes, but I agree with links18 that it is not always that simple. If the couple are living in another country with work obligations or studies, it is not exactly straight forward for the mother to pop back to Canada in order to give birth aside from the costs as she would most likely not be eligible for health care.

Immigration allowed PR's to live outside Canada for up to 3 years straight and IMO they should take into account that in a period of 3 years, babies can be born and the parents should not be punished for that. IMO they should guarantee a facilitation visa for babies of PR's that need to be sponsored.

 

[dpenabill]

You'd be surprised how often non-PR babies of PR parents are denied a TRV based on it not being the intention for them to just visit. Basically a VO is not supposed to grant a TRV unless it is for a visit. The parents can in those cases apply for a TRP if they know about it but sometimes it is denied too, leaving the couple no choice but to live separately while one settles in Canada and sponsors the child and the other waits with the child in their country of origin.

I doubt I would be surprised. There is a reason I emphasized, in bold, that a visa was NOT guaranteed. Because it is not.

The point, of course, is that a child born outside Canada is a Foreign National unless at least one of the parents:
-- was a Canadian citizen at the time of the birth
-- AND that parent was either born in Canada or a naturalized citizen

And relative to coming to Canada, every Foreign National (there are about seven billion or so of them in the world) is subject to the restrictions imposed by Canadian immigration law. Including the children of PRs born abroad. And it makes no difference that the PR parents later become Canadian citizens.

As for the pregnant woman choosing where to be, yes, but I agree with links18 that it is not always that simple. If the couple are living in another country with work obligations or studies, it is not exactly straight forward for the mother to pop back to Canada in order to give birth aside from the costs as she would most likely not be eligible for health care.

Immigration allowed PR's to live outside Canada for up to 3 years straight and IMO they should take into account that in a period of 3 years, babies can be born and the parents should not be punished for that. IMO they should guarantee a facilitation visa for babies of PR's that need to be sponsored.

Make no mistake: there is no H&C exception for conferring status on a child born abroad to PRs.

You and links18 may quibble about how Canadian immigration law should be more considerate regarding the real-world circumstances pursuant to which a pregnant PR is abroad, but the simple fact is that if and when a child is born to a PR abroad that child has no status in Canada unless and until the parent goes through the procedures to formally sponsor the child, and of course to do that, the parent must be eligible to sponsor. A parent on welfare (other than for disability), for example, is not eligible to sponsor (even if a citizen).

Which is to emphasize that for some individuals, the impact may indeed be hugely important.

It should have been readily apparent I was not editorializing about what should be, but was specifically highlighting a caution, making the observation for any other PRs perusing these discussions that residing abroad is a significant decision which can have serious ramifications, and thus there are important considerations to keep in mind when making that decision, and that in particular there are consequences to take into account. And this is especially the case for the PR who is pregnant.

As I alluded, the impact on the OP here, and this child, should be relatively minimal given that the child was born in the U.S. and the parents became Canadian citizens, so there should be no serious consequences, just the inconvenience of navigating the formalities of sponsoring the child for PR status, then applying for citizenship. BUT if the child was born in Dubai, that could pose significantly more difficult hurdles. Especially if the parents' applications for citizenship ran into snags, as it has for more than a few PRs working abroad, even if temporarily, while the citizenship application was pending.

In other words, regardless how one wants to phrase it, make no mistake: pregnant PRs should carefully consider the impact of where they are and where their child could be born. And of course that is a very personal matter, subject to all sorts of influences, personal priorities, and personal circumstances. None of which, however, have any role in terms of the consequences: the child born abroad to PRs has no status in Canada. And of course, the Canadian government exercises no role in this decision-making by the individual PR.

 

[Leon]

I doubt I would be surprised. There is a reason I emphasized, in bold, that a visa was NOT guaranteed.

You say it is likely that a TRV would be issued and according to my observations, I don't actually think it's likely.

You and links18 may quibble about how Canadian immigration law should be more considerate regarding the real-world circumstances pursuant to which a pregnant PR is abroad, but the simple fact is that if and when a child is born to a PR abroad that child has no status in Canada

True, we quibble about it and we are right. The rules are draconian. However, there isn't much we can do to change them so that is why I always tell PR's in this situation that if they can avoid it, they should not give birth outside Canada if their baby is not going to be visa exempt.

 

[screech339]

You say it is likely that a TRV would be issued and according to my observations, I don't actually think it's likely.

True, we quibble about it and we are right. The rules are draconian. However, there isn't much we can do to change them so that is why I always tell PR's in this situation that if they can avoid it, they should not give birth outside Canada if their baby is not going to be visa exempt.

While the rules appear to be draconian to you, the rules are there for a reason. These rules are no difference from any other countries' immigration rules.

This is no different if the OP and spouse were green card holders and had baby in Canada. They would have to sponsor the child for green card.

 

[Leon]

While the rules appear to be draconian to you, the rules are there for a reason. These rules are no difference from any other countries' immigration rules.

This is no different if the OP and spouse were green card holders and had baby in Canada. They would have to sponsor the child for green card.

The difference between Canada and most other countries is that most other countries to not allow their PR's to keep their status for 3 years outside. By being too nice about it, immigration has actually caused this problem.

 

[screech339]

The difference between Canada and most other countries is that most other countries to not allow their PR's to keep their status for 3 years outside. By being too nice about it, immigration has actually caused this problem.

While it seems generous for PR to be able to stay outside Canada, that doesn't make PR any less accountable to their actions. If they want to have a baby outside Canada as PR, accept the consequences of their decision.

If PR couples find work outside Canada for 2-3 years, it is reasonable to accept that they may have a baby (planned or unplanned) outside Canada. So if they don't want to accept that possibility they shouldn't accept the work. They can't have their cake and eat it too.

Same applies to those who wanted to have baby outside Canada for customary / traditional / personal reasons. Customary / traditional / personal reasons does not trump immigration laws.

 

[links18]

While it seems generous for PR to be able to stay outside Canada, that doesn't make PR any less accountable to their actions. If they want to have a baby outside Canada as PR, accept the consequences of their decision.

If PR couples find work outside Canada for 2-3 years, it is reasonable to accept that they may have a baby (planned or unplanned) outside Canada. So if they don't want to accept that possibility they shouldn't accept the work. They can't have their cake and eat it too.

Same applies to those who wanted to have baby outside Canada for customary / traditional / personal reasons. Customary / traditional / personal reasons does not trump immigration laws.

No, they don't; but immigration laws can be changed to reflect the real world circumstances of working people, who cant just fly in to give birth.

I want to apologize for the tone of my previous post directed to Dpenabill. It was too harsh and reads like a call out post. Sorry about that. My point was that it is not just the pregnant woman who is responsible when a child is born to a PR outside of Canada--the partner often bears some responsibility as well.

 

[screech339]

No, they don't; but immigration laws can be changed to reflect the real world circumstances of working people, who cant just fly in to give birth.

I want to apologize for the tone of my previous post directed to Dpenabill. It was too harsh and reads like a call out post. Sorry about that. My point was that it is not just the pregnant woman who is responsible when a child is born to a PR outside of Canada--the partner often bears some responsibility as well.

So you want the law changed to make an exception to the rule to accommodate very very small numbers PR couples who got caught in situations like this out of their decisions of their own free will. You do realized that making an exception to the law will make it more vulnerable to abuse.