Chance of Temp Visa after 2 rejections?

[S_and_C]

Hi,

I have been searching online for an immigration lawyer to help with getting my fiance, who lives in the Philippines, to visit me here in Ottawa and eventually immigrate to Canada as a permanent resident. I wanted to summarize what we've done so far, and see what sort of options we might have. Perhaps someone on this forum has encountered a similar situation. Thanks in advance to any who may reply.

We met in early December 2014 online, keeping in contact via Skype and messaging. Our relationship developed to the point where we wanted to visit each other in our respective countries. I was to visit her in Philippines the last week of March 2015, and she would fly back with me to Ottawa for 2 months (April-May), as this corresponds with her summer vacation break. Prior to my leaving for the Philippines, we made 2 attempts at a temporary visa, but were refused on both counts. As a result, I was able to visit her in March, but she couldn't visit me. It's worth noting that I am a single dad with 2 young kids, and arranging care for them for any length of time can be difficult, and I miss them whenever I have to travel. I've been told I can travel to Philippines and marry her there, then apply for permanent residence. But ideally I would like her to visit me, at least once or twice, before we figure out the best time to get married and apply for permanent residence. After all, we don't want our marriage to be something we rush through, just to satisfy a requirement for the permanent residence to be successful.

To summarize our first 2 attempts at obtaining a visitor visa.

First attempt: This one was applied for in mid-January, where the intent was to have my friend visit me for vacation/tourism in Canada (we had not talked about marriage at that point). The main rejection reasons were travel history (she has never left her home country before), and financial assets/support. For the financial side, I had emphasized in my invitation letter that I would cover her expenses during her stay including plane tickets, food and accommodation but I think they focused on her personal finances and bank statements. One factor is that due to her employer's method of paying salary, she is instructed to withdraw her salary from a government bank account in full every payday, so the balance is almost always showing zero. In Philippines it is common to deal strictly with cash and not electronic transactions as we do here in Canada. I also think because she's young, healthy, no kids, no financial ties etc, that they think she wouldn't leave Canada once she got here.

Second attempt: This one was applied in mid-march about a week or so after the first rejection, but this time we indicated she is my fiance visiting for vacation/tourism. This time I sent my own financial records to highlight the fact that I can support her during her visit, but it made no difference. Travel history / financial reasons were rejection reasons again. This time there were additional reasons: Family ties in Canada and country of residence (likely because this time I mentioned she is now my fiance, and not simply friend). Limited employment prospects and current employment situation. This was confusing, as she has full time employment as a high school science teacher as well as a university degree.

My main question is: Is a temporary visa still possible at this point, given we have been rejected 2 times already? Or is the only way forward for us is to get married in the Philippines, and then apply for spousal sponsorship when I return to Canada? The thing is we don't want to rush into marriage just to satisfy that requirement, but we do want to spend time together. At the same time, the process for marrying in Philippines can take a long time requiring me go for about a month, and there are my kids to consider. Ideally, I want her to visit me whenever she can and then proceed with marriage and a permanent resident visa when the timing is right.

Thanks,
S_and_C

 

[brucem]

Unfortunately, in my opinion you are going to find it incredibly difficult to get a visa for her. The fact is CIC are looking for a huge burden of proof that she will not remain in Canada once her visa expires. You have only very recently started a relationship and have only visited her once would possibly add to the concerns. You also mentioned her as a friend in the first app then as your financee a couple of months later. Unforutnately TRV's are a bit of a lottery but many couples who are married and have been together for many years still get denied so you are really up against it.

To be honest I think you would be better to develop your relationship and visit her a few more times over there before trying for another visa. I know many people meet like this these days but please don't rush into getting married simply to try and expidite a visa as this could also raise red flags in your application for PR. I know the pull of wanting to be together is very high but if she really intends on wanting to be with you in the long term I'm sure she would be willing to wait it out.

However...and here's my biggy do not underestimate the impact on your kids and how they would perceive dad going off to a foreign country and possibly getting married, prioritising a very new gf over them (especially given from your post I assume they are not adults). I'm from a visa exempt country and I think my now wife and I were apart about 2.5 years before we managed to be together permanently. Sorry this may be a bit of a sobering response but being a parent draws in a whole different amount of responsibility than being single and fancy free, although I understand you probably want to move on with your life. I do wish you the best of luck whatever path you choose.

 

[S_and_C]

Hi brucem,

I think you hit the nail on the head in every respect in your reply, and mirrors a lot of the same concerns that have been going through my head as of late. There is a huge pull between wanting to be with her and the fact that my kids need me and are my number one priority, and this is the hardest part of this that I've been dealing with. I have an 11 year old son and a 5 year old daughter, so yes they are still young.

I know the only way forward is to allow our relationship to develop further, and marriage/PRV will happen on its own time. I have been struggling with when it is the best time to visit her again, and if I should take my kids with me so they feel included. When I went in March to Philippines for 1 week, my mom and my ex was here to care for them, so it was a fun time for them, even though I missed them terribly the first few days. I was never apart from them like that before, I was always there. I guess in the end I need to just relax and let things play out like they're supposed to.

I want to thank you for your response. Sometimes it takes an outside perspective to get clarity, especially when emotions can sometimes cast a cloud over the reality of the situation.

Thanks,
S_and_C

 

[brucem]

Hi brucem,

I think you hit the nail on the head in every respect in your reply, and mirrors a lot of the same concerns that have been going through my head as of late. There is a huge pull between wanting to be with her and the fact that my kids need me and are my number one priority, and this is the hardest part of this that I've been dealing with. I have an 11 year old son and a 5 year old daughter, so yes they are still young.

I know the only way forward is to allow our relationship to develop further, and marriage/PRV will happen on its own time. I have been struggling with when it is the best time to visit her again, and if I should take my kids with me so they feel included. When I went in March to Philippines for 1 week, my mom and my ex was here to care for them, so it was a fun time for them, even though I missed them terribly the first few days. I was never apart from them like that before, I was always there. I guess in the end I need to just relax and let things play out like they're supposed to.

I want to thank you for your response. Sometimes it takes an outside perspective to get clarity, especially when emotions can sometimes cast a cloud over the reality of the situation.

Thanks,
S_and_C

I hope it helped a little, I do understand how difficult it is being apart from someone you care about, both in the sense of a kid or a partner. However, I would say in my experience it did make us stronger as a couple, and we had some rocky roads to cross but we eventually got there!

I've worked as a social worker for a good few years and I've seen the the impact of marriage break ups and mum and dad bringing new people into their lives, for them its generally a very big event and from my experience the softly softly approach usually has better outcomes, so I think your idea of including them is great, as they will feel part of your new life, although would maybe hold off taking them for a while yet as you've only been the once so far (just my opinion). I would also talk to them a lot about it, so they can talk to you about their fears, concerns or just general questions. Anyway I'll take my social worker hat off now!

I'm really glad you had the same concerns as you've definetely got your head screwed on which sometimes people lose when they meet someone new, the more you build your relationship with her over a longer period the more chance you can think of applying for another TRV...remember the more ties you can show to her home (job, mortgage, loans, family....etc etc) the better chance you likely have. Also getting married is probably going to have a negative impact on the TRV as it illustrates more of a need to be with you in Canada so bear that in mind as well.

I really hope all goes well though, life isn't an easy ride sometimes!

Bruce.

 

[S_and_C]

Thanks again Bruce, my name is Sheldon by the way. Nice to meet someone who has a lot of knowledge as well as a good perspective on the whole process.

As for relationships, I had been in a relationship before this for about 8 months (after the divorce a few years back, and it ended something like 6 or 8 months ago now). There were challenges at that time with respect to the kids accepting the idea of me dating someone, who also had a child around the same age as my oldest, so them getting along was an also issue. My ex-wife is also dating a guy now for a few months who is really nice, he gets along with the kids and they like him, and it's not weird at all for me either, so it's all around positive. In my case, I think that I may have a little more leeway relationship-wise as it's becoming the norm for parents, and as long as the kids feel loved by each parent, and bring new people into their lives who love them just as much, there is a net benefit here, at least from my perspective. But of course any change should be gradual, and I do agree that change over time lessens any negative impacts on the kids. They have spoken to my fiance a few times over Skype a few evenings, so they know her, but it's no substitute for knowing someone in person. I haven't told my kids our plan is to get married, all in due time as they get to know her better.

I had a few other questions if you don't mind...

1. One avenue we considered before was for her to apply through Express Entry as a skilled immigrant as she has good credentials (high school science teacher), a Bachelor degree and is fluent in English. She only needs to do the Language test which we're investigating now before completing the profile. Getting a PRV within 6 months and working somewhere in Ontario (I don't believe she would be able to choose the city) would at least make her more accessible to me for visiting. Would having 2 TRV rejections on file interfere with this, or is the Express Entry method completely independent and determined based on the point system and if an employer decides to extend a job offer?

2. Is there a rule of thumb as to how long a relationship needs to be to be considered genuine in the eyes of the CIC? I can understand a couple marrying within a week is probably not going to satisfy them, but what about 3 months, 6 months, years...? I know building a relationship and recording different aspects like pictures/emails/messages over time is something we will do, but I am wondering do we have 1-2 years ahead of us before we can do a cutoff, and then apply for PRV? Or consider earlier? I know most of that is dependent on when we finally get married which could be on the timeframe of months at least, perhaps a year or more, it's impossible to tell.

Thank again for your feedback, I really do appreciate it. I was trying to find a way I can add to your reputation score on this forum, but I think I don't have access to that functionality.

Take care,
Sheldon

 

[brucem]

Hi Sheldon,

Nice to meet you as well, I've just managed to gather together some knowledge on this forum over the last year given our own application which is ongoing at the moment! Sounds like your kids well be well used to it then so I'm sure they won't have any problems at all...don't worry about the feedback I don't think you can + somene until you have reached a certain number of posts...happy to help!

Just in terms of your questions:

1. I'll be honest I'm not an expert on the express entry scheme but from what I understand its a completely independent process therefore, the visa rejections would hopefully not count against her in any way. There is a whole part of the forum dedicated to this so you'll probably get far better answers scanning through the posts there! I suppose thats another possible option for entry but I'll not pretend I know anymore about it!

2. There is no hard or fast rule on relationship length, Canada allows couples who are common law to apply once they have resided together continually for 365 days but technically you can apply immediately after you get married which could be a week..month..year after you met. However, if you have a look through the family class sponsorship section you will probably see people talking about what they call 'red flags', these are things that might weaken your application, such as being married shortly after meeting, lack of time with the partner, any criminal background issues, etc etc. The way I looked at it when myself and my good lady applied was that the officer reviewing our file knew nothing about us, our history etc so we worked on from that view to try and cover every angle. We have been together since 2004 so we included emails from then, pictures (although not a huge amount - a lot of people get carried away and submit literally hundreds of photos, skype chats, emails etc). We worked our way up to getting married in 2009 then the birth of our daughter in 2013, really just to show the continuous nature of our relationship.

If I was to try and put a reasonable time frame on it I would say that (based on common law) a year together is good enough but I'm sure there are many people who have applied and been together probably far less. Really the onus is on the applicant and the sponsor to prove their relationship is genuine to CIC. I would recommend having a look at the Manila thread on the family sponsorship section (given this would likely be her visa processing office) for a really good idea of people in your position, I'm sure its very common so there is bound to be some great advice on there. You may also have to prepare for the possibility of an interview which CIC usually conduct if there is any doubts about something in the application. Interviews are not common for visa exempt applicants so I don't know much about them unfortunately but I'm sure there will be a ton of advice on the Manila thread.

http://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/manila-tread-for-english-speakers-join-here-t123646.11010.html

Keep a hold of everything like plane tickets, conversations and any other evidence about your relationship, then when the time comes you can sift through it and see what you want to include in the application. I would also recommend reading the guidance notes for applying outland (as this is how you would apply as she is not residing in Canada) as its takes a while to get your head round everything. There is quite a lot to take in but you can post any questions on the family class section of the forum or do a search as no doubt someone will have asked it before.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/applications/fc.asp

Most people recommend not using a lawyer as you can get all the right info on this forum from some of the senior members. You'll see some real horror stories about lawyers on the forum and to be honest once you've got your head round the language and application its not as bad as it first seems.

Any other questions just give me a shout and ill do my best to answer!

Bruce.

 

[Jalex23]

2. Is there a rule of thumb as to how long a relationship needs to be to be considered genuine in the eyes of the CIC? I can understand a couple marrying within a week is probably not going to satisfy them, but what about 3 months, 6 months, years...? I know building a relationship and recording different aspects like pictures/emails/messages over time is something we will do, but I am wondering do we have 1-2 years ahead of us before we can do a cutoff, and then apply for PRV? Or consider earlier? I know most of that is dependent on when we finally get married which could be on the timeframe of months at least, perhaps a year or more, it's impossible to tell.

No rule of thumb. You need enough time to get a history together, that is pictures, constant travelling back and forth, long periods of communicating via skype, phone, etc. etc.

In your case I would suggest that a TRV is unlikely. I think the best option is to go there, get married and try to start a PR application under family class in about a year when all these evidence is put together.

Long way ahead of you.

 

[canuck_in_uk]

1. One avenue we considered before was for her to apply through Express Entry as a skilled immigrant as she has good credentials (high school science teacher), a Bachelor degree and is fluent in English. She only needs to do the Language test which we're investigating now before completing the profile. Getting a PRV within 6 months and working somewhere in Ontario (I don't believe she would be able to choose the city) would at least make her more accessible to me for visiting. Would having 2 TRV rejections on file interfere with this, or is the Express Entry method completely independent and determined based on the point system and if an employer decides to extend a job offer?

2. Is there a rule of thumb as to how long a relationship needs to be to be considered genuine in the eyes of the CIC? I can understand a couple marrying within a week is probably not going to satisfy them, but what about 3 months, 6 months, years...? I know building a relationship and recording different aspects like pictures/emails/messages over time is something we will do, but I am wondering do we have 1-2 years ahead of us before we can do a cutoff, and then apply for PRV? Or consider earlier? I know most of that is dependent on when we finally get married which could be on the timeframe of months at least, perhaps a year or more, it's impossible to tell.

1. Besides Quebec, there is no restriction on where in Canada she could live if she becomes a PR through Express Entry. Has she already had an Educational Credential Assessment done for her foreign degree? Has she looked at the requirements of the provincial regulatory body for teaching for your province? A job offer means nothing without an approved LMIA. It is extremely difficult to find such an employer willing to go through the LMIA process, so she should not count on being able to find one.

The temporary resident refusals would have no effect on a permanent resident app.

2. As bruce said, there is no rule; each relationship is different and is evaluated differently. Becoming engaged after a 3-4 month online relationship when you hadn't even met in person yet is going to be seen as a big red flag. If you were to compound that with very little time spent together in person before getting married and the fact that she is from a non visa-exempt country, you have a very good chance of CIC determining it is a Marriage of Convenience.

If you plan to go down the sponsorship route, go slow. Visit at least a few more times and for longer than a week before getting married. Have her meet your kids before marriage too, as that's a pretty big deal not just for them but for CIC. Travel with her to other countries. If and when you get married, have as many family members and friends as you can come to the wedding. Establish the relationship so that when a perfect stranger from CIC goes to review your file, they see a genuine couple, not red flags.

 

[S_and_C]

Thanks again Bruce, and canuck and Jalex for the replies.

When I looked deeper into the forum for Express Entry, yes she would need the educational assessment as well, so it's more money. And it mentioned that unless she has a job offer, she would need to provide proof of being able to support herself via her own means, and I'm not allowed to help her with that. Also, given that Express Entry is more like a lottery, she isn't guaranteed to get chosen from the pool, or have a job offer, so there are too many unknowns at this point. In short, I think for now we are abandoning the Express Entry route, and will stick with the longer process of developing the relationship further, marriage and then PRV. And yes, it does seem like there is a long road ahead of us, but it's going to be worth the wait.

Thanks,
Sheldon