CEC Application - Second Review on NOC 0711

[Amisnic]

Question:

1. What type of work permit are you on?


If it is an open work permit then you will need to furnish a new Schedule 8 Form and write a letter stating that you incorrectly identified NPC 0711 and that you wish to correct that with NOC 2131. I can help with the letter and the forms - send me your email address via the message board.

Thanks. Do you have similar experience which need to change NOC# which application in process? I know that before submitting i had to fill in work experience and NOC in some of the forms. Do i need to re-submit them with the correct NOC?

 

[edta]

Question:

1. What type of work permit are you on?


If it is an open work permit then you will need to furnish a new Schedule 8 Form and write a letter stating that you incorrectly identified NPC 0711 and that you wish to correct that with NOC 2131. I can help with the letter and the forms - send me your email address via the message board.

I graduated 2011 May. PWGP expired August 2014. Currently, i am on BOWP expiring August 2015. I will submit an extension in April 2015.

 

[retwant]

Hello fellow civil engineer!

This is the list of job titles for NOC 0711:
assistant manager, construction
bridge and building construction manager
bridge construction superintendent
building construction general contractor
building construction superintendent
building materials branch director
commercial construction manager
construction assistant manager
construction expediter
construction general contractor
construction general superintendent
construction manager
construction operations manager
construction project co-ordinator
construction project manager
construction project superintendent
construction senior project manager
construction site manager
construction site superintendent
construction special project manager
construction superintendent
general contractor
general contractor, construction
general superintendent, construction
highway construction manager
housing construction manager
industrial construction manager
manager, industrial construction
manager, pipeline construction
pipeline construction manager
pipeline construction superintendent
project co-ordinator, construction
project manager, construction
residential construction manager
senior project manager, construction
site manager, construction
site superintendent, construction
special project manager, construction
superintendent, bridge construction
superintendent, construction
superintendent, pipeline construction

You can't change NOC after submitting the application. Right now, you are actually properly categorized under this NOC 0711 (see the bold one). NOC 2131 is more for the design aspect of construction; meanwhile, 0711 is more on the construction management aspect.

 

[edta]

Question:

1. What type of work permit are you on?


If it is an open work permit then you will need to furnish a new Schedule 8 Form and write a letter stating that you incorrectly identified NPC 0711 and that you wish to correct that with NOC 2131. I can help with the letter and the forms - send me your email address via the message board.

I have sent a message to your Personal Message Inbox. Thanks.

 

[edta]

Hello fellow civil engineer!

This is the list of job titles for NOC 0711:
assistant manager, construction
bridge and building construction manager
bridge construction superintendent
building construction general contractor
building construction superintendent
building materials branch director
commercial construction manager
construction assistant manager
construction expediter
construction general contractor
construction general superintendent
construction manager
construction operations manager
construction project co-ordinator
construction project manager
construction project superintendent
construction senior project manager
construction site manager
construction site superintendent
construction special project manager
construction superintendent
general contractor
general contractor, construction
general superintendent, construction
highway construction manager
housing construction manager
industrial construction manager
manager, industrial construction
manager, pipeline construction
pipeline construction manager
pipeline construction superintendent
project co-ordinator, construction
project manager, construction
residential construction manager
senior project manager, construction
site manager, construction
site superintendent, construction
special project manager, construction
superintendent, bridge construction
superintendent, construction
superintendent, pipeline construction

You can't change NOC after submitting the application. Right now, you are actually properly categorized under this NOC 0711 (see the bold one). NOC 2131 is more for the design aspect of construction; meanwhile, 0711 is more on the construction management aspect.

Hello to you too! Are you working in the same area as well? Project Coordinator? How was your PR application going?

 

[retwant]

I have landed last year as a PR. My NOC was 0211 (engineering service project manager) as I am a project manager in a steel design office here in Vancouver.

 

[Amisnic]

He can change NOC after the filing of the application provided he is not allocated an NOC through his work permit. The job title is not the issue, he has to show that he has carried out the major duties in the lead statement and a substantial number of duties in the NOC duties list.

From his LOE he does not fulfil the requirements of NOC 0711. NOC 2131 is not particularly for design engineers, it is for folks who work in the area and they need not be registered professional engineers.

Hello fellow civil engineer!

This is the list of job titles for NOC 0711:
assistant manager, construction
bridge and building construction manager
bridge construction superintendent
building construction general contractor
building construction superintendent
building materials branch director
commercial construction manager
construction assistant manager
construction expediter
construction general contractor
construction general superintendent
construction manager
construction operations manager
construction project co-ordinator
construction project manager
construction project superintendent
construction senior project manager
construction site manager
construction site superintendent
construction special project manager
construction superintendent
general contractor
general contractor, construction
general superintendent, construction
highway construction manager
housing construction manager
industrial construction manager
manager, industrial construction
manager, pipeline construction
pipeline construction manager
pipeline construction superintendent
project co-ordinator, construction
project manager, construction
residential construction manager
senior project manager, construction
site manager, construction
site superintendent, construction
special project manager, construction
superintendent, bridge construction
superintendent, construction
superintendent, pipeline construction

You can't change NOC after submitting the application. Right now, you are actually properly categorized under this NOC 0711 (see the bold one). NOC 2131 is more for the design aspect of construction; meanwhile, 0711 is more on the construction management aspect.

 

[retwant]

His listed duties are much closer to project management (0711) than construction/design engineer (2131):

• Updated project schedule weekly using Primavera P6 to reflect project overall progress. 0711
• Tracked and monitored construction labour unit and quantity installed. Prepared manpower and quantity graphs for project weekly report. 0711
• Maintained Request for Information (RFI)/Non-Conformity Report (NCR) log regularly. Issued RFI/NCR status report weekly to project team. 2131 & 0711
• Planned weekly and monthly field construction milestones. 2131 & 0711
• Assisted in generating electrical cables and instrumentations QA/QC survey document to ensure work was completed accurately. 2131 & 0711
• Assisted procurement manager in reviewing and organizing Scope Change Request (SCR) document and weekly report.0711

But 2131 is more general, and might be more flexible in terms of duties & salaries. My biggest concern is that as a project coordinator, you didn't emphasize on the coordination & management part. Instead, you sounded more like a junior field engineer who performed mostly administrative work only. I would recommend to provide an updated LOE that will cover all bases.

 

[Amisnic]

Not quite - the lead statement of 0711 uses these words:

plan, organize, direct, control and evaluate

Now look at my disagreements alongside your notes at the bottom.

And you are correct that 2131 is more flexible - most engineers do project management in any event, hey I am one too!

His listed duties are much closer to project management (0711) than construction/design engineer (2131):

• Updated project schedule weekly using Primavera P6 to reflect project overall progress. 0711

updating is neither planning, organizing, directing, controlling or evaluating - it is merely an assisting role, the 2131 is a better NOC for this as he is working as a junior engineer.

• Tracked and monitored construction labour unit and quantity installed. Prepared manpower and quantity graphs for project weekly report. 0711

- again same reason as above and 2131 is better for him

• Maintained Request for Information (RFI)/Non-Conformity Report (NCR) log regularly. Issued RFI/NCR status report weekly to project team. 2131 & 0711

- same reason - 2131 is better for him

• Planned weekly and monthly field construction milestones. 2131 & 0711
• Assisted in generating electrical cables and instrumentations QA/QC survey document to ensure work was completed accurately. 2131 & 0711

- not at all a 0711 duty

• Assisted procurement manager in reviewing and organizing Scope Change Request (SCR) document and weekly report.0711

- not at all a 0711 duty

But 2131 is more general, and might be more flexible in terms of duties & salaries. My biggest concern is that as a project coordinator, you didn't emphasize on the coordination & management part. Instead, you sounded more like a junior field engineer who performed mostly administrative work only. I would recommend to provide an updated LOE that will cover all bases.

 

[jes_ON]

I have been asked to chime in on this, so here goes -

It's been said thousands of times on this board, don't match the job title, match the job duties and responsibilities. But it IS very difficult in this case, given that the corresponding project title is listed with this NOC, and some NOCs are really broad and/or poorly written. I always recommend that the letter contain a couple of sentences about what the company does, who the clients are, and your role in the company, to give sufficient context (that hopefully corresponds with the lead statement).

I agree with Amisnic, the NOC and duties in the LOE don't match. It's hard to tell whether you have the wrong NOC or whether your LOE is the problem. I will take your word for it that it's a higher level job, but when I searched for an NOC that matched the duties in the LOE, this is what I found - construction schedule co-ordinator (Note that this is NOT my field - same situation as the VO).

http://www5.hrsdc.gc.ca/NOC/English/NOC/2011/ProfileKeyword.aspx?val=1&val1=1523&val11=construction&val12=0&val13=0&val14=&val15=0&val16=0

In some ways, you sound a bit like a business consultant - NOC 1122 is usually the catchall for other QC/management consultants
http://www5.hrsdc.gc.ca/NOC/English/NOC/2011/ProfileKeyword.aspx?val=1&val1=1122&val11=management+consultant&val12=0&val13=0&val14=&val15=0&val16=0

Project managers/QC positions in other occupations are usually a skill level A job (not O), so this makes it even more difficult to convince the VO that a Level O NOC is suitable. You could make that point, that there are no Skill Level A occupations in the NOC system for major group 7, and "middle managers" are included level O occupations - see the matrix -
http://www5.hrsdc.gc.ca/NOC/English/NOC/2011/html/Matrix.html)

So - if you are 100% certain that 0711 is the "best" NOC, then the following are options:
1) Do nothing, wait for 2nd review and allow the senior VO to do his/her job. If they also have concerns, you will have the opportunity to explain.
2) Get a new letter of employment that better describes what you do (or did) and the level at which you do it, so that a layperson can understand. And note, that "manager" to CIC means managing people - if you supervise anyone, or have training and/or hiring/firing responsibilties, ADD those to the letter.
3) Provide a written explanation as to why you chose that NOC and how your position corresponds to it. (If you describe duties that are not in your letter of employment, it will be meaningless). Highlight which of the duties in NOC 0711 correspond to yours.

I would not change the NOC to the engineering NOC, as the duties don't match.

Note that you can TRY to "change" or convince the VO that you made an error, or explain your choice, but there is no guarantee that it will be accepted (worse, sometimes it can backfire).

 

[retwant]

Thanks jes_ON for always the perfect explanations! +1 as always...

From his list of duties, I can tell that he is doing a project coordinator job (I did that 7 years ago with a well-known General Contractor), but he didn't expand the job responsibilities to include the coordination/supervision/management part. That's why now he sounded more like an administrative coordinator, which will definitely confuse the VOs during the review.

 

[Amisnic]

A Project Coordinator can be at various levels, from a assistant right through to a senior manager level.

His duties, which is what his employer is stating he was doing (and most probably hired to do) is at the "assistant" level thus he needs to find an NOC that befits that. As mentioned earlier, "engineers" can be project coordinators and he will be better off using 2131 as his NOC. Next, the reviewing VO might start looking at salaries too.

BTW, project coordinators can be in any field, an accountant can work as a project coordinator so as I have said, it is not the title but what one has done which matters.

Thanks jes_ON for always the perfect explanations! +1 as always...

From his list of duties, I can tell that he is doing a project coordinator job (I did that 7 years ago with a well-known General Contractor), but he didn't expand the job responsibilities to include the coordination/supervision/management part. That's why now he sounded more like an administrative coordinator, which will definitely confuse the VOs during the review.

 

[retwant]

edta, I couldnt reply you back since your inbox is full.

 

[stepover]

Hello, please I need some clarification on this NOC 0711.
Is it applicable for a project manager working for a consultant firm and who supervises the work carried out by contractors on behalf of their clients.
I need the clarification because the Lead Statements and example titles on the noc.esdc.gc.ca page generally refers to someone working in a construction firm.
Thanks in advance.

 

[ikhouri]

Dear all,

I need your advice. I have applied for PR under CEC back in May 2014. I received my acknowledgement letter June 2014. In January 2015, I applied for GCMS report on status and found that my work experience is in second review. The NOC is 0711. Here is the message from GCMS report.

"
LOE/Supporting Docs do NOT appear to match lead statement and/or a substantial number of the main duties under NOC code selected. ... ... ... LANGUAGE: IELTS submitted - Applicant meets benchmarks for work experience at this skill level: 0. ... ... ... RECOMMENDATION: REVIEW REQUIRED BY OFFICER
"

Below are the description from my employment reference letter which i sent along with PR application package.

• Updated project schedule weekly using Primavera P6 to reflect project overall progress.
• Tracked and monitored construction labour unit and quantity installed. Prepared manpower and quantity graphs for project weekly report.
• Maintained Request for Information (RFI)/Non-Conformity Report (NCR) log regularly. Issued RFI/NCR status report weekly to project team.
• Planned weekly and monthly field construction milestones.
• Assisted in generating electrical cables and instrumentations QA/QC survey document to ensure work was completed accurately.
• Assisted procurement manager in reviewing and organizing Scope Change Request (SCR) document and weekly report.


General description for NOC 0711 from hrsdc:

-Plan, organize, direct, control and evaluate construction projects from start to finish according to schedule, specifications and budget
-Prepare and submit construction project budget estimates
-Plan and prepare construction schedules and milestones and monitor progress against established schedules
-Prepare contracts and negotiate revisions, changes and additions to contractual agreements with architects, consultants, clients, suppliers and subcontractors
-Develop and implement quality control programs
-Represent company on matters such as business services and union contracts negotiation
-Prepare progress reports and issue progress schedules to clients
-Direct the purchase of building materials and land acquisitions
-Hire and supervise the activities of subcontractors and subordinate staff

I would like to know if anyone has any similar experience. What is the recommended step to take to help the officer? Should i send a revised employment reference letter? Your recommendation is appreciated. Thank you.

Hi Edta, can you please update us on whether you have been granted the PR under the 0711 NOC? Please me know as I am currently going through the same situation.