Canada : Dream - Reality

[kateg]

With an attitude like that, you should go to the States! The entire culture there is based on blaming people for their own problems. You would fit right in.

I came from the States. It's true there, too.

Your post is probably the most arrogant I have read on this forum in many years

Happy to oblige.

I'm sure that at the very least you will have an interesting time in Canada.

So far, I am. Took a couple of days to find a job, and I'm acclimating just fine, thank you.

 

[scylla]

With an attitude like that, you should go to the States! The entire culture there is based on blaming people for their own problems. You would fit right in.

Anyway, good luck. Your post is probably the most arrogant I have read on this forum in many years, I'm sure that at the very least you will have an interesting time in Canada.

There's nothing arrogant about what kateg said. And it's actually the exact opposite of blaming others. It's about taking control of your life and making things work out for yourself RATHER THAN blaming others for your problems. It's like saying: "No matter what happens, I will find a way to turn it into a positive situation through hard work." I don't understand what is arrogant about that. That's a great way to look at life and individuals with this attitude are more likely to succeed. I was born in Canada and I approach my life with this mentality. Same for my parents. My grandparents immigrated when they were relatively young and I think having this kind of attitude is what allowed them to have good lives here after leaving everything they knew behind.

More people should have this attitude. It's a good attitude. It's about taking personal responsibility rather than just sitting back and expecting things to come to you.

 

[kateg]

Strong internal locus of control is a characteristic of people who succeed. Anyone who waits for something to happen for them or is looking to people to do something for them is far more likely to fail.

All snark aside, luck happens to us all. How we deal with and mitigate those circumstances is a lot of how our experiences are shaped.

As a simple example:

Four people have their car break down, and are in jobs where they need to get to work quickly or they will be fired.

One knows how to fix a car, fixes it himself and gets to work.
Another made sure to live near mass transit. It takes a little longer, but he rides it and gets to work.
The third has good friends, and a little bit of money saved for car repairs. He gets a ride from a friend to a mechanic that offers loaner cars. He drives that car to get to work until his is repaired.
The fourth has no way to get to work, no money to fix it, and lives away from mass transit. He misses work.

Three of those four people will be fine. One of the four will not. All had the exact same luck.

I have worked construction and dug ditches by hand. I have worked logistics (shipping), retail, food, and software. I am good enough at photography that I can make a living in it if necessary, I have written (and sold software) in over a dozen programming languages, and I have an armed guard license in the states, and have held a locksmith license. I do this despite owning and operating a company that does millions of dollars worth of sales each year. I had to fight for that knowledge, because my parents and the school system stood in the way of my learning instead of enabling it.

Success wasn't handed to me on a silver platter - I had to fight for it. When I set my sights on permanent residency, I had no fewer than 10 different avenues for trying to get it. I found an employer who could get a LMIA, I went full-time as a student to get my points up and PGWP, my spouse applied as well. We had backups for the backups. For the best shot, I had to come to Canada first, so I did. I wanted something, so I did what it took to make it happen.

Anyone who can make it to Canada and achieve Permanent Residency has in them the potential for a good degree of accomplishment. It takes some degree of education and intelligence to come here legally. Finding a job may not be easy, but there are things that each of us can do to improve our chances, and to improve our careers. Whether it's taking advantage of things like DuoLingo to learn French, spending hours making our resumes better, joining toastmasters and meetup groups to improve our English skills, starting our own companies when others won't hire us, finding mentors and coaches to help us interview, or learning new skills (particularly transferable skills that work across multiple employers), each and every one of us has the potential to make ourselves better.

Unemployed Doctor due to licensing issues? Work towards getting credentials here, and/or start learning a new trade. Nobody is going to do it for you. Stuck as a taxi driver because it's the only job you can get? Download the Project Management PrepCast, and start working on a Project Management Professional (PMP) or Business Analyst credentials (or the lower level ones) and work towards a more white collar job. College too expensive? MITX, HarvardX, Coursera, etc. offer lots of knowledge you can get free. No internet? Public libraries are available. No devices? There are some cheap ones available on Kijiji and Craigslist, and Wifi hotspots all over the place.

Make your own destiny.

 

[MySky]

You know, you are very successful in what you define and see as success. People are different in what they want in life whether in their hometown or in a new country. Myself for example, I don't like it when people are too full of themselves and see all the success in a career-based approach. Your example of the broken car has its flaws right at its assumption. Those 4 people did not have the same luck, and I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that they did. The choice made by everyone in your example, is the result of thousands of factors, a lot of which, are not under the control of that person. It is not only immature but also offensive to believe that a homeless person is homeless because they didn't try hard enough. If you are happy in your life and you think you would be able to survive when there was no job positions and everyone you knew was hit by a meteor, fine! That's your opinion about your capabilities and your outlook on life. Don't expect everyone else to see happiness and success the same way you do. So stop making it look like everyone has equal opportunities in life and they can do it if they are determined enough. Good for you that you had millions of options to move to Canada. Now please show some sympathy for those who are stuck in countries being denied basic human rights and don't rub your dozen programming languages at their and my face. Because they may have zero options to move here but they very well are as human as you are.

 

[specialmary]

I have to say that immigrating to Canada can be successful. But what I really wanted to say was that in my experience, what can bring you to succeed in your country does not necessarily help you in a new country such as Canada, and vice versa.

I have known a Canadian Master's student turns out getting a cert on plumbing as they are much more plumbing jobs and they pay more. I have known Canadian grads turns out doing bartending as they are paid much more than any jobs (around $60000 per year). Therefore, even if you have a white-collar job, you may not be able to get the same type of jobs due to market demands and other external circumstances. As other members have said here, getting as much info before moving to Canada was strongly advised. Be prepared the possibility that you need to work in a field different from your old jobs.

I also said about English. What I meant is that if you want a white-collar job it is much easier if you have very good English. Do not be surprised that your actual job requires more than your IELTS 8th or 9th level scores - it is often harder to listen to the English spoken by real people than those spoken on a tape. They use lots of informal references or idioms that are not tested in IELTS. A lot of reasonably paid white-collar jobs expect native level of writing. But it does not mean that a learner of English can never achieve that level. Finally, as job openings are not a lot in Canada, lots of native Canadians try to open their own business and become an entrepreneur. Being an entrepreneur is not common in my country but much more common in Canada, and you may follow suit.

Yes, optimism is important. In that other post it was reported that a guy's friend tries to commit suicide because of not getting a ITA. I was trying to say that getting a ITA may be just the beginning of a hurdle to settle in Canada, and advise the guy to give a more realistic picture of what immigrating is like. I was not saying that getting a native level of English was mandatory to survive in Canada. Indeed, I gave examples where it is not mandatory (serving in a bar, plumber). That may explains why CIC opens Trade Stream and people with certain trade experience may survive well. For example, there may be more teaching jobs in trade schools than universities in Canada.

 

[kateg]

You know, you are very successful in what you define and see as success.

Thank you. I tried living by other people's definition of success, but it didn't lead to happiness. To thine own self be true.

People are different in what they want in life whether in their hometown or in a new country.

Good. Humanity needs variation. If everyone wanted the same thing, very few people could actually achieve it.

Myself for example, I don't like it when people are too full of themselves and see all the success in a career-based approach.

For what it's worth, nor do I. This thread was in many ways about the Canadian dream, which is hard to achieve when one has no job. For most individuals, the job is the starting point of building the wealth needed to do many of the things they enjoy, and to reduce the stress so they can better enjoy the life they have.

All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy; I travel and enjoy time in nature at least once a week, I fly (and jump out of) planes for fun, I photograph nature and travel and hike regularly, and have a loving spouse with a very good relationship. We take our cat on camping trips with us. I enjoy working with my hands - at the moment, I'm soldering together a PCB.

There's some photos at http://kates.photos/ if you'd like

Your example of the broken car has its flaws right at its assumption. Those 4 people did not have the same luck, and I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that they did.

It's a thought experiment, and largely allegorical. We assume the same luck for the purpose of analyzing a scenario, in order to reduce the variables.

The choice made by everyone in your example, is the result of thousands of factors, a lot of which, are not under the control of that person. It is not only immature but also offensive to believe that a homeless person is homeless because they didn't try hard enough.

I would never assume that, and you shouldn't either. There are a number of underlying aetiologies with homelessness, particularly in countries with less of a social safety net. For starters, mental illness is often associated with homelessness, as it can leave people in a position of not being able to take advantage of resources (such as shelters), and difficulty with being able to achieve stable, long-term employment due to their difficulties in interacting with other individuals.

Such a person might very well have had nothing to do with their situation, but they would not be granted express entry, which is the group I addressed my comments to.

Second, working hard does not (on it's own) accomplish anything. I can work really, really hard at a task, but if I lack the prerequisites, I am unlikely to succeed. Success is generally the intersection of effort with a proper direction. If I want to be a doctor, but I spend my time studying plumbing, I'm only slowing the process down.

If you are happy in your life and you think you would be able to survive when there was no job positions and everyone you knew was hit by a meteor, fine! That's your opinion about your capabilities and your outlook on life.

It's a statement of fact, not opinion. I've already been cut off from half of my family for being gay, and the other half for not being mormon. I've been beaten, abused, and tortured into confessing things I didn't do. I've already replaced all of my friends and social group, and moved thousands of kilometers with only a box full of stuff. I've been wealthy, I've been poor, I've watched as my family was sued. I've had the police threaten to kill me, and threaten to unjustly imprison me for 5-10 years. I'm watching my body fall apart, but I'm still here.

Bring on the meteor - I've already had worse. I know how I would handle it if everyone I loved died, because I've already had to lose them all once.

Don't expect everyone else to see happiness and success the same way you do.

If they did, there would be little point in trying to encourage them to, would there?

So stop making it look like everyone has equal opportunities in life and they can do it if they are determined enough.

Nobody has equal opportunities in life. What we have is our mind, and our body, and what we do with it.

Now please show some sympathy for those who are stuck in countries being denied basic human rights and don't rub your dozen programming languages at their and my face. Because they may have zero options to move here but they very well are as human as you are.

This is a thread about immigrants who come here. If you read my other posts, I never said everyone on the planet has an opportunity to come here. In fact, I'm often one to point out the reality that many people can't or shouldn't come here.

What I am suggesting is that in order to make it to Canada, there are certain criteria that can be met. If you meet those criteria, then you have the skills necessary to be able to succeed.

There is always someone poorer than you, there is always someone with less opportunity. This is true for pretty much everyone on the planet. That doesn't mean we can't have our own happiness, or that we can't work to help others to find theirs.

Some people will die in poverty or in slavery, and that's horrible. That doesn't mean that the people right here, right now, can't succeed. Once you get to Canada, there is a large country where corruption is minimal, where healthcare and education are available, where you are not forced into a caste, and where you have the freedom to seek opportunity and to set your own destiny. Those who do come here should take advantage of it, and are often more capable, and have more opportunity than they realize.

 

[AshesNdust]

With an attitude like that, you should go to the States! The entire culture there is based on blaming people for their own problems. You would fit right in.

Anyway, good luck. Your post is probably the most arrogant I have read on this forum in many years, I'm sure that at the very least you will have an interesting time in Canada.

What's with the US bashing? No, the entire culture isn't based on blaming other people, in fact, it has a strong history of expecting people to pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps. So, don't generalize about over 300 million people.
That being said, I do disagree with kateg regarding failure. It is completely possible to do everything right and still not succeed. Every now and then circumstances occur outside our control. I've known good, hardworking, intelligent people who, through no fault of their own, fell on hard times. Sometimes illnesses and accidents happen. You have to pick yourself back up, keep trying, and hope things take a turn for the better.
What I don't understand about a lot of posts I read, is that if they have such a negative view of Canada why are they try to get in? If it's so terrible, pick a different country to immigrate to or stay put.

 

[bellaluna]

I wish I could +1 all of kateg's posts in this thread, but there's a daily limit. Awesome photos too.

 

[ETE]

You know, you are very successful in what you define and see as success. People are different in what they want in life whether in their hometown or in a new country. Myself for example, I don't like it when people are too full of themselves and see all the success in a career-based approach. Your example of the broken car has its flaws right at its assumption. Those 4 people did not have the same luck, and I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that they did. The choice made by everyone in your example, is the result of thousands of factors, a lot of which, are not under the control of that person. It is not only immature but also offensive to believe that a homeless person is homeless because they didn't try hard enough. If you are happy in your life and you think you would be able to survive when there was no job positions and everyone you knew was hit by a meteor, fine! That's your opinion about your capabilities and your outlook on life. Don't expect everyone else to see happiness and success the same way you do. So stop making it look like everyone has equal opportunities in life and they can do it if they are determined enough. Good for you that you had millions of options to move to Canada. Now please show some sympathy for those who are stuck in countries being denied basic human rights and don't rub your dozen programming languages at their and my face. Because they may have zero options to move here but they very well are as human as you are.

That was rude to kateng. The post was meant to advice people and not rub anything into anyone face. I understood exactly what kateng meant and i agree 100% with that ideology. Your reply shows that you have so much issues that need to addressed. Take care of your problems and don't come on here to bash someone for giving an advice.

 

[ETE]

Thank you. I tried living by other people's definition of success, but it didn't lead to happiness. To thine own self be true.

Good. Humanity needs variation. If everyone wanted the same thing, very few people could actually achieve it.

For what it's worth, nor do I. This thread was in many ways about the Canadian dream, which is hard to achieve when one has no job. For most individuals, the job is the starting point of building the wealth needed to do many of the things they enjoy, and to reduce the stress so they can better enjoy the life they have.

All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy; I travel and enjoy time in nature at least once a week, I fly (and jump out of) planes for fun, I photograph nature and travel and hike regularly, and have a loving spouse with a very good relationship. We take our cat on camping trips with us. I enjoy working with my hands - at the moment, I'm soldering together a PCB.

There's some photos at http://kates.photos/ if you'd like


It's a thought experiment, and largely allegorical. We assume the same luck for the purpose of analyzing a scenario, in order to reduce the variables.


I would never assume that, and you shouldn't either. There are a number of underlying aetiologies with homelessness, particularly in countries with less of a social safety net. For starters, mental illness is often associated with homelessness, as it can leave people in a position of not being able to take advantage of resources (such as shelters), and difficulty with being able to achieve stable, long-term employment due to their difficulties in interacting with other individuals.

Such a person might very well have had nothing to do with their situation, but they would not be granted express entry, which is the group I addressed my comments to.

Second, working hard does not (on it's own) accomplish anything. I can work really, really hard at a task, but if I lack the prerequisites, I am unlikely to succeed. Success is generally the intersection of effort with a proper direction. If I want to be a doctor, but I spend my time studying plumbing, I'm only slowing the process down.

It's a statement of fact, not opinion. I've already been cut off from half of my family for being gay, and the other half for not being mormon. I've been beaten, abused, and tortured into confessing things I didn't do. I've already replaced all of my friends and social group, and moved thousands of kilometers with only a box full of stuff. I've been wealthy, I've been poor, I've watched as my family was sued. I've had the police threaten to kill me, and threaten to unjustly imprison me for 5-10 years. I'm watching my body fall apart, but I'm still here.

Bring on the meteor - I've already had worse. I know how I would handle it if everyone I loved died, because I've already had to lose them all once.

If they did, there would be little point in trying to encourage them to, would there?

Nobody has equal opportunities in life. What we have is our mind, and our body, and what we do with it.

This is a thread about immigrants who come here. If you read my other posts, I never said everyone on the planet has an opportunity to come here. In fact, I'm often one to point out the reality that many people can't or shouldn't come here.

What I am suggesting is that in order to make it to Canada, there are certain criteria that can be met. If you meet those criteria, then you have the skills necessary to be able to succeed.

There is always someone poorer than you, there is always someone with less opportunity. This is true for pretty much everyone on the planet. That doesn't mean we can't have our own happiness, or that we can't work to help others to find theirs.

Some people will die in poverty or in slavery, and that's horrible. That doesn't mean that the people right here, right now, can't succeed. Once you get to Canada, there is a large country where corruption is minimal, where healthcare and education are available, where you are not forced into a caste, and where you have the freedom to seek opportunity and to set your own destiny. Those who do come here should take advantage of it, and are often more capable, and have more opportunity than they realize.

I went through your photos and they were gorgeous. I admire your strength and wish you success in everything you do.

 

[kateg]

I wish I could +1 all of kateg's posts in this thread, but there's a daily limit. Awesome photos too.

 

[MySky]

This was a shorter quote so I took it.
First, I hope you didn't think my reply was "rude" as ETE put it. The language was harsh but not rude and I certainly wasn't "bash"ing anyone (or at least didn't mean to come across that way). I may have a lot of "issues" that I need to take care of though. Thanks ETE for reminding me! Is seeing a shrink covered by the health plan?

Back to you Kateg. Wow - you did manage to make this reply all about yourself again, telling us all about your hobbies and sharing your photographs with us. For one second I forgot what we were here for. I am not going to reply to your replies because we would just be disagreeing forever. I do acknowledge that you have been through lots of difficulty your in life and I'm happy you turned out great. For what is worth I am gay too, but let's not make it about who I am, or who you are; well at least not on here. I don't really think some of your replies related directly to what I wrote and they were rather more elaboration on your thoughts - I think you are right about the most of it. As you will probably agree (presumably of course since you sarcastically agreed on all my points), everyone's life is based on their personal experiences. I was only desperately saying that just because you can do it, it doesn't me everybody else can; and just because you have dozens of immigration options it doesn't mean other people 'can' earn those opportunities. The homeless and the deprived of human rights were not examples of people wanting to apply via Express Entry as you suggested, and rather a few instances of those who may not be qualified just because they never got the chance to get to where you are standing now despite your difficult life.

 

[ETE]

This was a shorter quote so I took it.
First, I hope you didn't think my reply was "rude" as ETE put it. The language was harsh but not rude and I certainly wasn't "bash"ing anyone (or at least didn't mean to come across that way). I may have a lot of "issues" that I need to take care of though. Thanks ETE for reminding me! Is seeing a shrink covered by the health plan?

You just proved my point.

 

[kateg]

This was a shorter quote so I took it.
First, I hope you didn't think my reply was "rude" as ETE put it. The language was harsh but not rude and I certainly wasn't "bash"ing anyone (or at least didn't mean to come across that way). I may have a lot of "issues" that I need to take care of though. Thanks ETE for reminding me! Is seeing a shrink covered by the health plan?

For what it's worth, you came back more as annoyed than rude.

Wow - you did manage to make this reply all about yourself again, telling us all about your hobbies and sharing your photographs with us.

Narcissism on my part, and annoyance with some of the implications and interpretations of the point attempting to be made.

As you will probably agree (presumably of course since you sarcastically agreed on all my points), everyone's life is based on their personal experiences.

To be honest, my responses are more frustration than anything else. Politics, particularly with privilege, can be complicated, and people end up missing out on opportunities needlessly. It can be hard to sit there and watch as people suffer, knowing that there are ways to fix the issue. I know enough now that obtaining wealth and opportunity is relatively easy, and the actions taken are ones available to many other people.

I was only desperately saying that just because you can do it, it doesn't me everybody else can; and just because you have dozens of immigration options it doesn't mean other people 'can' earn those opportunities.

I can understand where you are coming from. I acknowledge that there are people who can't. The point I'm trying to make is that many of the people who think they can't, actually can. What they lack is knowledge and experience, not innate capability. This is, in itself, it's own form of privilege - two children with the same intelligence and put in the same situation will have very different outcomes, because one knows how to thrive there. The message I'm trying to give is one of hope and encouragement.

Knowledge is power, and everyone on here presumably has access to the internet. We each have access to more information with a single millisecond long Google search than a lifetime of research could examine a generation ago. While we each have different opportunities as a result of our circumstances and decisions, we all have opportunities.

 

[MySky]

For what it's worth, you came back more as annoyed than rude.

Narcissism on my part, and annoyance with some of the implications and interpretations of the point attempting to be made.

To be honest, my responses are more frustration than anything else. Politics, particularly with privilege, can be complicated, and people end up missing out on opportunities needlessly. It can be hard to sit there and watch as people suffer, knowing that there are ways to fix the issue. I know enough now that obtaining wealth and opportunity is relatively easy, and the actions taken are ones available to many other people.

I can understand where you are coming from. I acknowledge that there are people who can't. The point I'm trying to make is that many of the people who think they can't, actually can. What they lack is knowledge and experience, not innate capability. This is, in itself, it's own form of privilege - two children with the same intelligence and put in the same situation will have very different outcomes, because one knows how to thrive there. The message I'm trying to give is one of hope and encouragement.

Knowledge is power, and everyone on here presumably has access to the internet. We each have access to more information with a single millisecond long Google search than a lifetime of research could examine a generation ago. While we each have different opportunities as a result of our circumstances and decisions, we all have opportunities.

Again not %100 agreeing with you here but I just read your original posts again and I think I just overreacted. In retrospect, you merely expressed your opinion and you only worded it in the way you deemed effective. I may not agree with what you think or how you say it, but I should not have reacted too fast before I tried to comprehend your points. I might have judged you by your words because I didn't approve of the way they were told. I never hesitate to apologize when I know I did something wrong and I should apologize to you for my language and choice of words. I could delete my posts but then that would make it like it never happened. So I'll let them stay on here because our actions have consequences and they can never be completely reversed.
All the best!