Campaign to Amend Section 5 of the Citizenship Act

[Beakster]

The current rule is a classic case of the Orwellian "all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others".

You have put this better than I ever could and the example you have given demonstrates the problem with the current situation perfectly.

Thanks for all the replies so far. It's really good to see some discourse on this subject. I honestly believe that the current system is unfair and could be easily modified to rectify this, something I am now working towards with this campaign.

 

[torontonian999]

Hi Beakster. The user just_do_it has talked about the exact same scenario I was talking about.

An example:

Person A comes to canada and applies for PR as a refugee.
The refugee case streches out for 3 years before person A is granted PR.
As per your suggested changes, person A would be eligible to apply for citizenship right away if their times under processing counts the same as time as a PR.

now if person A only came here for the purpose of gaining PR, gets their PR, and also their citizenship and now takes off back to where they came from with a canadian passport, we just made it all too easy for him/her.

Under current rules, person A would have to live in Canada for 2 more years before being eligible to apply for citizenship. also, person A would have to live in Canada for 3 years out of 5 to even maintain their PR status. So this, potentially, weeds out citizens/ PR's of convenience to some extent.

Now if person A genuinly wanted to settle in Canada, he/she should have no problem waiting 2 years while they work, live, pay taxes etc before they can get citizenship.

atleast people get credit for upto a year for time spent in Canada (legally) before PR. so in a way, those people are a year ahead (in terms of qualifying for citizenship) of the one's coming here as PR's.

 

[unitedbritishphilippines]

Fact # 1 . You need just 25 people to sign your petition to submit it. BUT, majority of them should be Canadians. Petitioning th crown or parliament by foreigners exclusively is never allowed.

Fact # 2. Live-in caregivers were given half day credit for every day they stay in Canada under that program. So if they stay for three (3) years, they have a credit of 1.5 years that means they will only need the difference to apply for citizenship.

Fact # 3. The petition, should in case you were able to amassed 25 verified signatures is doomed to failed in the first place because no MP on his right mind would sponsor it to the House of Commons (its all about politics). If that petition shall never pass through the Clerk of Petitions, then whats the point of initiating this kind of action.

Fact #4 Before you begin with this kind of action, you must armed yourself with legal decisions that would substantiate this claim. Section 5 as it is now is sound and I don't see anything wrong with it.

Fact # 5 If you still insists in doing this, since you are an affected party of this regulation, why don't you challenge this in court and hope you would win it. As soon as you win it in the lower and in the Supreme Court of Canada, then thats the time you can petition the House of Commons to amend the aforementioned section.

There is another better way, if you think your right as a temporary resident of our great country were violated in terms of you don't want to wait to long to apply for citizenship, why don't you again apply for mandamus before the court so that you would know if our country has been unfair to you in treating you.

Best of luck to you.

 

[torontonian999]

The question is does that person A stick around as a student and then as a worker only to be able to get their PR? Maybe they will leave right after the PR and come back in the last two years of the 5 years so they don't lose their status. The question is will that person still continue living here after getting their PR? The fact that they need to stay here only 2 years instead of 3 years to apply for citizenship is a fair compromise. I know people who turned down good job offers in the US because they needed to continue working here to get their PR. I also know people who left Canada as soon as they got their PR. They need to be here or 2 of 5 years to maintain the PR, but on the other hand, they don't show strong commitment to Canada, because they left as soon as they got the PR. If they want citizenship, they should demonstrate that they continue living in Canada even after getting their PR.

With respect to long processing times, the government is increasing funding for citizenship applications by $44 million in the next 2 years by imposing higher application fees. Hopefully it will be effective.

This is personally what I think makes sense. I mean if they were here legally, they were paying bills and buying goods and services, paying taxes as a temporary worker, or paying exhorbitant tuition fees as an international student. If we are really going for procedural fairness, this is what's fair. The current rule is a classic case of the Orwellian "all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others".

Imagine person A who spends four years in University, then at minimum spends one year working before being eligible to apply for Permanent Residency under the Canadian Experience Class, currently taking an average of 13 months to be processed. That person spends at least 6 years in the country before potentially becoming a PR. And this is if they got a qualifying job the day they got out of school. They now have to wait another two years before being eligble for apply for Citizenship, which currently takes around two years. 10 years before they get their passport and can vote. Outrageous? I think yes.

Person B marries a Canadian and becomes a permanent resident in 6 months, and can vote five years later, all things being equal.

Who has shown more "commitment"?? There are other ways you can paint this. You can make them both students, one of them does a one year course, one of them is lucky enough to get a job right away while the other waits a couple of years landing that perfect opportunity, one of them was here since the 9th grade, etc etc....bottom line, you're not half a person while you're a temporary resident, so your time should not count as half the time.

 

[unitedbritishphilippines]

The question is does that person A stick around as a student and then as a worker only to be able to get their PR? Maybe they will leave right after the PR and come back in the last two years of the 5 years so they don't lose their status. The question is will that person still continue living here after getting their PR? The fact that they need to stay here only 2 years instead of 3 years to apply for citizenship is a fair compromise. I know people who turned down good job offers in the US because they needed to continue working here to get their PR. I also know people who left Canada as soon as they got their PR. They need to be here or 2 of 5 years to maintain the PR, but on the other hand, they don't show strong commitment to Canada, because they left as soon as they got the PR. If they want citizenship, they should demonstrate that they continue living in Canada even after getting their PR.

With respect to long processing times, the government is increasing funding for citizenship applications by $44 million in the next 2 years by imposing higher application fees. Hopefully it will be effective.

Kudos to your logical comments and reply mate. This is all true.

 

[canuckoz]

Agreed. Also no land borders. Makes it far earlier to track movement.

The United States of America does have a long stretch of Canadian border to cover PLUS the 'dodgy' Mexican border. and yet, it takes them 5 months to process citizenship apps compared to Canada's 23 months. why so? cause Canada does not record all movements, even in airports where there are tight controls!

 

[shutterbug]

The United States of America does have a long stretch of Canadian border to cover PLUS the 'dodgy' Mexican border. and yet, it takes them 5 months to process citizenship apps compared to Canada's 23 months. why so? cause Canada does not record all movements, even in airports where there are tight controls!

Don't kid yourself.... Canada knows more about your comings and goings than you would think. Your passport is scanned at customs and recorded at all points of entry. Other people may have more than one passport and use them accordingly to avoid the Government from having this knowledge.

 

[scylla]

Ummm confused by your point. If they had been in Canada 6 years before being eligible/becoming a PR, would this not be the definition of commitment??

It doesn't sound like you understand the amendment.

The current rule states that you must have spent three (3) out of the last four (4) years in Canada to qualify for citizenship.

The amendment proposes that you can qualify to apply for citizenship by spending only three (3) years out of the last six (6) years in Canada.

The amendment reduces the commitment one must show to qualify for citizenship.

 

[canuckoz]

Don't kid yourself.... Canada knows more about your comings and goings than you would think. Your passport is scanned at customs and recorded at all points of entry. Other people may have more than one passport and use them accordingly to avoid the Government from having this knowledge.

even exits? then how come they need to much info when you apply for citizenship when it's all recorded then...

 

[Beakster]

Fact # 1 . You need just 25 people to sign your petition to submit it. BUT, majority of them should be Canadians. Petitioning th crown or parliament by foreigners exclusively is never allowed.

Fact # 2. Live-in caregivers were given half day credit for every day they stay in Canada under that program. So if they stay for three (3) years, they have a credit of 1.5 years that means they will only need the difference to apply for citizenship.

Fact # 3. The petition, should in case you were able to amassed 25 verified signatures is doomed to failed in the first place because no MP on his right mind would sponsor it to the House of Commons (its all about politics). If that petition shall never pass through the Clerk of Petitions, then whats the point of initiating this kind of action.

Fact #4 Before you begin with this kind of action, you must armed yourself with legal decisions that would substantiate this claim. Section 5 as it is now is sound and I don't see anything wrong with it.

Fact # 5 If you still insists in doing this, since you are an affected party of this regulation, why don't you challenge this in court and hope you would win it. As soon as you win it in the lower and in the Supreme Court of Canada, then thats the time you can petition the House of Commons to amend the aforementioned section.

There is another better way, if you think your right as a temporary resident of our great country were violated in terms of you don't want to wait to long to apply for citizenship, why don't you again apply for mandamus before the court so that you would know if our country has been unfair to you in treating you.

Best of luck to you.

Hi, unitedbritishphilippines

To clarify the current plan of action, there is currently no petition. As this campaign has only just started the first objective is to get the support of some MPs who will hopefully take this issue up with the Minister for Immigration and Citizenship in the House of Commons.

I agree with you regarding being armed with legal decisions to support our case. I have been unable to find any legal decisions which either support or dismiss the half a day per day situation we have at the moment. If anyone knows of any please let me know. There is however the issue of Canadianization which supports our cause. From the case of Re Pourghasemi (1993), 62 F.T.R. 122, 19 Imm. L.R. (2d) 259 Justice Muldoon made to following statement. I believe this supports our case because the time we have spent here before becoming PRs is time spent becoming Canadianised:

It is clear that the purpose of paragraph 5(1)(c) is to ensure that everyone who is granted precious Canadian citizenship has become, or at least has been compulsorily presented with the everyday opportunity to become "Canadianized." This happens by "rubbing elbows" with Canadians in shopping malls, corner stores, libraries, concert halls, auto repair shops, pubs, cabarets, elevators, churches, synagogues, mosques and temples - in a word wherever one can meet and converse with Canadians - during the prescribed three years. One can observe Canadian society for all its virtues, decadence, values, dangers and freedoms, just as it is. That is little enough time in which to become Canadianized. If a citizenship candidate misses that qualifying experience, then Canadian citizenship can be conferred, in effect, on a person who is still a foreigner in experience, social adaptation, and often in thought and outlook... So those who would throw in their lot with Canadians by becoming citizens must first throw in their lot with Canadians by residing among Canadians, in Canada, during three of the preceding four years, in order to Canadianize themselves. It is not something one can do while abroad, for Canadian life and society exist only in Canada and nowhere else.

You're last point regarding challenging this in court is a very good one which I have already considered, however. In order to do this one would need to:
1) Get PR after having been in Canada for 3 years already.
2) Find a way of circumventing CIC's pre-check on a Citizenship application verifying you have been a PR for 2 years before they begin processing it.
3) Wait approximately 4 years for the processing of the citizenship application and appointment of a citizenship judge to hear the case.

I will be in such a scenario as soon as I'm granted PR. If I was able to get past the CIC's initial check so that my case could be heard by a citizenship judge, the waiting times involved doesn't really make it an intelligent course of action for me personally as I could wait the 2 years after PR and then apply with guaranteed success. Also I would hope that the campaign I'm launching now will reach a conclusion in less than 4 years time.

 

[Beakster]

It doesn't sound like you understand the amendment.

The current rule states that you must have spent three (3) out of the last four (4) years in Canada to qualify for citizenship.

The amendment proposes that you can qualify to apply for citizenship by spending only three (3) years out of the last six (6) years in Canada.

The amendment reduces the commitment one must show to qualify for citizenship.

This is a reference to the 3rd proposed option on the campaign website and certainly my least favourite. It is mainly intended to be a discussion point and something which I have heard the government has been planning anyway.

Why do you feel it reduces the commitment one must show to qualify for citizenship? Remember than when applying for citizenship your PR must not be in doubt. The point of the increase is that if the government insists on maintaining the rule to calculate days before PR is granted at half a day per day, then someone who lived in Canada for 6 years before PR will then have accumulated 3 years of residence. I don't see 6 years in Canada as showing less commitment when under the current system someone can land in Canada as a PR, wait 3 years and then apply.

Also I feel many people here are putting too much emphasis on the idea of leaving after citizenship citizenship is granted. Under the current system as has been said, some people are able to achieve citizenship after 5 years and some after 10 or more. This proposed amendment would not reduce the minimum time to achieve citizenship, it would simply help people who have already been living in the country, contributing and becoming Canadianized, qualify in a time closer to that of those who qualify through more efficient means (like family class sponsorship or applying for PR before landing in Canada).

 

[just_do_it]

You are forgetting the reality of the citizenship application procedure here. Currently average processing time is 22 months. If you haven't been employed during this time and earning a fair wage then it's very likely you will receive a Residence Questionnaire which will take your Citizenship application processing time up to around 4 years. Now you also need to consider the rule that at the time citizenship is granted, Permanent Resident status must not be in doubt. I think this in itself means that people cannot take advantage of the system in the way you describe.

To put this into your example, Person A cannot simply "get their PR, and also their citizenship and now takes off back to where they came from with a canadian passport", because they have the long process of actually getting Citizenship to deal with. The only thing the change I am proposing would do is let the apply earlier.

you suggested that the entire time before PR should be allowed to count towards citizenship rather than the current maximum of one year. the example i gave would be IF that change is made.

I know very well the long procedure of getting citizenship, took me almost 3 years to get mine. But i had no major issues with the length of the procedure as i have the same rights to live and work here as a canadian citizen. Now if i was in a hurry to get my Canadian citizenship (the only logical reason i can think of is if i had a real bad itch to vote and i don't), i would be complaining about the process. At the same time, i also understand the fact that CIC has been downsizing their operations and the application number has been going up at a steady rate.

Is processing citizenship applications a priority for CIC? probably not.

Do they think the current system is unfair to some/ unfair for some categories? they probably dont give a rat's behind.

Do they have their priorities set based on application type such as spouse applications/ adoptions etc based on the country of application? I would say so.

Politicians in the opposition will usually sing along with public demands but once they get into power, nobody cares. So you might get some support from liberals/ NDP, but ultimately expect absolutely nothing to happen.

As far as comparing the Canadian system to others like US, AUS, UK etc, totally different systems and procedures. I know its frustrating, but thats just the way it is.

 

[mikeathome]

(...)
I know its frustrating, but thats just the way it is.

You are a pretty good Canadian...

Mike

 

[Beakster]

I know its frustrating, but thats just the way it is.

This is a terrible attitude to have, but it seems to be the way people think here. I've recently been complaining to a lot of people about the fact that there is a waiting list of over 1 year to get a family doctor here in Montreal if you are healthy, and people are saying the same thing when I tell them I never waited more than a week in the UK. Also the fact that people here accept being given only 10 vacation days per year, again the standard back in the UK is more than double that. It maybe the way it is, but it's not the way it should be, and complacency isn't the solution to anything.

 

[scylla]

This is a reference to the 3rd proposed option on the campaign website and certainly my least favourite. It is mainly intended to be a discussion point and something which I have heard the government has been planning anyway.

Why do you feel it reduces the commitment one must show to qualify for citizenship? Remember than when applying for citizenship your PR must not be in doubt. The point of the increase is that if the government insists on maintaining the rule to calculate days before PR is granted at half a day per day, then someone who lived in Canada for 6 years before PR will then have accumulated 3 years of residence. I don't see 6 years in Canada as showing less commitment when under the current system someone can land in Canada as a PR, wait 3 years and then apply.

If that's what you intend the new rule to mean then you might want to change the wording to make this explicit. Right now it simply states that six years preceeding the citizenship application should be considered rather than four. Have you thought about how this rule applies to someone who does not live in Canada before becoming a PR? This effectively means that you can arrive in Canada for the very first time, become a PR and then only spend 50% of your time in Canada over the next six years (rather than the current 75% over four years) to qualify for citizenship. This is where the committment to Canada is clearly being reduced by the new rules proposed.