+1(514) 937-9445 or Toll-free (Canada & US) +1 (888) 947-9445

Bill C-24 Second Reading on February 27th:

admontreal

Hero Member
Feb 15, 2011
326
9
Montreal, QC
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
I agree with you guys. It would be almost ridiculous to believe this bill will pass before summer. The committee still needs to make their recommendation and a budget has been allocated for the section-by-section study. Let alone all the upcoming controversies.
 

us2yow

Hero Member
Dec 15, 2010
687
15
And - with pre-election fever/season in general - the controversies coming to light in the news are just increasing. And there was also that petition on protesting bill C-24 which I think has now reached close to 19K signatures....target of 25 K ..something on those lines...

It's still going thro its steps...and hopefully there are no challenges in the Supreme Court either.... That's why bills in a democracy go through debate....it just can't become law overnight because somebody said so...no way Jose ;)
 

CanV

Champion Member
Apr 30, 2012
1,237
156
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
Observer said:
The Senate House just showed a meeting on Monday May 26 relating to Study on the impacts of recent changes to the immigration system. Needless to remind you all that House of Common also has a meeting on May 26. The race is on to pass the bill before summer.
Observer, I see you posting almost every other day about how certain you are the bill be passed before July this year. I can assure you this will not be the case. A Canadian citizenship reform act will not pass within 4-5 months from the day it was introduced, simple as that.
 

Tolerance

Star Member
May 14, 2014
166
9
I don't want burst anybody's bubble, but just because we WANT to think that the bill won't be passed soon, it does not mean that it actually will not be passed. I also think we might be giving too much credit to the Canadian democratic process :(. So perhaps being pessimistic will keep us thinking about ways to do something about it.

A few days ago, I contacted the office of Lysanne Blanchette-Lamothe, and I got a reply from her Parliamentary Assistant. With her permission, I give you the relevant parts of that email. A note: the parts in the quotation marks are her actual words, while the parts following in the brackets are my understanding of it.

"To answer your first question, we do not know when the modification to s.5(1)(c) would come into force as it has to be enacted by an Order in Council."
(This section concerns the granting of citizenship, so nobody can know when certain parts of the law will start to be applied; we would have to wait for the last stage, the Royal Assent, which would specify the dates. My first question was, if the law were to be passed in its current form, would it affect the current PRs - effectively extending their residency requirements - or would it only affect those who become PRs AFTER the law starts to be applied. Based on Alexander's words, and the various opinions on the internet, it seems the former is the case - but I wanted to check. I also asked if the law were passed during the summer, when it would start to be applied; this nobody can now until Royal Assent).

"As for your second question, the bill is coming back to the House for second reading on May 28th, assuming that the Conservative government puts a time allocation on the debate (and they have already indicated that they will), C-24 could receive the Royal Sanction this summer."
(This is a bit confusing to me; she says 'second reading,' while the Parliament's web site says the second reading was in February 2014. Also, I could not find any debate on C-24 scheduled in the HoC calendar.)

"If the bill is passed in its present form, many legal experts have testified before the Standing Committee of Citizenship and Immigration that it could, in fact, face constitutional challenges, particularly pertaining to sections (6), (7) and (15) of the Charter." (Here my question was whether the courts might challenge the new law, because many legal experts have expressed their doubts as to the constitutionality of its certain parts. Section 6 of the Charter concerns the mobility rights of citizens, Section 7 concerns the right to life, liberty, and security, and Section 15 is about equality under law.).

"Again, the majority of the provisions of the bill will be enacted by Orders in Council so we have no way of knowing when they will come into force." (Here, in a second email, she repeated that nobody knows when parts of the law will start to be applied. If you read about Orders in Council, it seems that the Governor has some leeway in determining a law's entry into force. Perhaps if things start happening very quickly now, we could at least protest to the Governor and try to delay entry into force that way.

I also sent the same email to Minister Alexander, and it seems they will just ignore me ;D. I think that attitude might illustrate their view of those who oppose the Bill. And I was very respectful... :).

So anyways, the email I received was not very optimistic. The Conservatives have the majority and it seems they can pretty much vote anything into law. The lady said it might happen this summer! This might be challenged by the courts later though.

So I urge everyone not to get too comfortable :-[. Let's keep thinking about ways to do something.

Can anyone confirm they will have a debate on the Bill on the 28th of May?
 

CanV

Champion Member
Apr 30, 2012
1,237
156
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
Tolerance said:
I don't want burst anybody's bubble, but just because we WANT to think that the bill won't be passed soon, it does not mean that it actually will not be passed. I also think we might be giving too much credit to the Canadian democratic process :(. So perhaps being pessimistic will keep us thinking about ways to do something about it.

A few days ago, I contacted the office of Lysanne Blanchette-Lamothe, and I got a reply from her Parliamentary Assistant. With her permission, I give you the relevant parts of that email. A note: the parts in the quotation marks are her actual words, while the parts following in the brackets are my understanding of it.

"To answer your first question, we do not know when the modification to s.5(1)(c) would come into force as it has to be enacted by an Order in Council."
(This section concerns the granting of citizenship, so nobody can know when certain parts of the law will start to be applied; we would have to wait for the last stage, the Royal Assent, which would specify the dates. My first question was, if the law were to be passed in its current form, would it affect the current PRs - effectively extending their residency requirements - or would it only affect those who become PRs AFTER the law starts to be applied. Based on Alexander's words, and the various opinions on the internet, it seems the former is the case - but I wanted to check. I also asked if the law were passed during the summer, when it would start to be applied; this nobody can now until Royal Assent).

"As for your second question, the bill is coming back to the House for second reading on May 28th, assuming that the Conservative government puts a time allocation on the debate (and they have already indicated that they will), C-24 could receive the Royal Sanction this summer."
(This is a bit confusing to me; she says 'second reading,' while the Parliament's web site says the second reading was in February 2014. Also, I could not find any debate on C-24 scheduled in the HoC calendar.)

"If the bill is passed in its present form, many legal experts have testified before the Standing Committee of Citizenship and Immigration that it could, in fact, face constitutional challenges, particularly pertaining to sections (6), (7) and (15) of the Charter." (Here my question was whether the courts might challenge the new law, because many legal experts have expressed their doubts as to the constitutionality of its certain parts. Section 6 of the Charter concerns the mobility rights of citizens, Section 7 concerns the right to life, liberty, and security, and Section 15 is about equality under law.).

"Again, the majority of the provisions of the bill will be enacted by Orders in Council so we have no way of knowing when they will come into force." (Here, in a second email, she repeated that nobody knows when parts of the law will start to be applied. If you read about Orders in Council, it seems that the Governor has some leeway in determining a law's entry into force. Perhaps if things start happening very quickly now, we could at least protest to the Governor and try to delay entry into force that way.

I also sent the same email to Minister Alexander, and it seems they will just ignore me ;D. I think that attitude might illustrate their view of those who oppose the Bill. And I was very respectful... :).

So anyways, the email I received was not very optimistic. The Conservatives have the majority and it seems they can pretty much vote anything into law. The lady said it might happen this summer! This might be challenged by the courts later though.

So I urge everyone not to get too comfortable :-[. Let's keep thinking about ways to do something.

Can anyone confirm they will have a debate on the Bill on the 28th of May?

I agree with you on not getting too comfortable and that something should be done but I still am confident this wont be passed before the summer break.
 

on-hold

Champion Member
Feb 6, 2010
1,120
131
In answer to one of your questions, I think that Parliament's web site normally shows the last stage COMPLETED -- and C-24 has had its second reading begun, but it hasn't actually been formally referred to the committee. What's going on now is some complicated pre-study, that doesn't show up in the bill's online status.

I totally agree with what you're saying -- the fact is, none of us know how fast it's going to progress, and the weird confident assertions that it won't be finished this year are peculiar, given that the relevant variable is basically the will of the majority to get it done. And then as you point out, implementation is a complete black box.
 

on-hold

Champion Member
Feb 6, 2010
1,120
131
As for confirmation of next week's date, May 28th, I didn't see any -- I don't think the House of Commons publishes their internal schedule much before the date itself, and there's nothing on CIMM's web site. From what I understand, the process would be this:

1) Vote in House of Commons, formally referring C-24 to the CIMM committee (2nd stage complete) -- according to the letter above, this is going to be May 28th. At that point, C-24 has 17 working days left before the break, 10 of them with extended hours.

2) CIMM studies the bill and produces a report for the House (this is the longest stage, but much of its work may have already occurred, with the meetings of the past few weeks); the conservative majority on CIMM will determine how much time is allocated for this. Once this stage is passed, the progress of the bill is a series of formal votes with little or no discussion.

3) House of Commons votes on C-24: 3rd stage complete.

4) Three votes in the Senate, which can be on three consecutive days. (4th, 5th, and 6th stages complete)

5) Royal assent, and implementation schedule.

There are really only two points that could eat up time: the second stage and the implementation schedule. With 17 days left, obviously the time allocated by CIMM for study is critical. Note that they could literally allocate 3 full weeks, all the way up to June 17th, and still have three days to vote the bill through the Senate (assuming that there are no details around advance scheduling of votes, etc.) Royal Assent won't require the Parliament to be sitting, it can happen any time if the voting takes place before June 20th.

If you look at what has been done this Parliamentary session, not too many bills have been passed so far -- I STRONGLY suspect that the government would like to finish some or many of these before the summer break, which is very likely the last substantial free time before the next election. These citizenship issues are important for the conservative base, and they'll be something to talk about when members go back to their ridings.
 

CanV

Champion Member
Apr 30, 2012
1,237
156
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
on-hold said:
In answer to one of your questions, I think that Parliament's web site normally shows the last stage COMPLETED -- and C-24 has had its second reading begun, but it hasn't actually been formally referred to the committee. What's going on now is some complicated pre-study, that doesn't show up in the bill's online status.

I totally agree with what you're saying -- the fact is, none of us know how fast it's going to progress, and the weird confident assertions that it won't be finished this year are peculiar, given that the relevant variable is basically the will of the majority to get it done. And then as you point out, implementation is a complete black box.
I said it wont pass before this year's summber break, not this year all together. And you can call it weird or whatever you want, I am more than confident it wont pass, not that I care if it does or doesnt anyways.
 

on-hold

Champion Member
Feb 6, 2010
1,120
131
I think it's weird because you have literally no information at all that is relevant to how fast it passes, that's all. You might be right, who knows -- but if you flip a coin and are 'confident' that it is going to come up heads, what does that really mean?
 

CanV

Champion Member
Apr 30, 2012
1,237
156
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
on-hold said:
I think it's weird because you have literally no information at all that is relevant to how fast it passes, that's all. You might be right, who knows -- but if you flip a coin and are 'confident' that it is going to come up heads, what does that really mean?
You are right, I literally have no information at all regarding the process of this bill, but like I said before a canadian citizenship reform bill will not pass within few months from its proposal, not even with a majority government, not in Canada. There is already so much opposition and calls to amend almost every part of it that they probably decided to set it aside all together.

Plus I do not need you to tell me what I do and do not know, I already know what I know and dont know. Just because the timing is uncertain doesnt meant we cant use our brains to think how things work.
 

us2yow

Hero Member
Dec 15, 2010
687
15
Logically speaking, with such a tight time frame to the summer recess and such an important and partly controversial bill in consideration, there is no way it can just be zipped through at any cost.

That would be a joke....and just inhuman and undemocratic....

The Lysane email feedback seems to have added some teaspoonfuls of confusion and mini-panic...

And haven't the Minister and initial coverage already quoted that they expect it to be become law sometime end of the year ?
 

on-hold

Champion Member
Feb 6, 2010
1,120
131
us2yow said:
Logically speaking, with such a tight time frame to the summer recess and such an important and partly controversial bill in consideration, there is no way it can just be zipped through at any cost.

That would be a joke....and just inhuman and undemocratic....

The Lysane email feedback seems to have added some teaspoonfuls of confusion and mini-panic...

And haven't the Minister and initial coverage already quoted that they expect it to be become law sometime end of the year ?
The Minister's quote is meaningless -- first off, there's no reason that he could give specifics when asked, since he isn't part of the formal process. Second, why would he say "We plan on cramming it through Parliament with little debate, so that our members can discuss it when they go back to their ridings over the summer recess."? There's no reason at all for him to give a specific answer to that question, and every reason to be vague -- it's what the committee does that determines when the bill passes.

Also, it's not inhuman -- this bill itself isn't an atrocity. Neither is it undemocratic -- if it passes before summer, every formal requirement of Canadian democracy will have been met. The Lysanne email added no confusion at all -- it simply made the point that the bill could pass very quickly, and came from a qualified insider who has access to a schedule that we don't. How is that confusing?

Note that I'm not saying you guys are wrong -- just that there is no way to know, and that confidence in some informal aspect of the process is misplaced. Again, two things will determine when this comes into force: the unknown will of the CIMM conservatives and the people who give them orders, and the unknown implementation schedule. Aside from these two things, the only thing that will derail this process is a government-destroying scandal . . . Knowing the CPC, I'd put more hope in the last possibility than the first two.
 

Tolerance

Star Member
May 14, 2014
166
9
Speaking of a government-destroying scandal, and bearing in mind the blackout on political advertising in Ontario, how would you guys qualify a campaign done on behalf of the conservatives, calling thousands of people daily, and asking them if they will support Hudak and other candidates, asking them if they will put a sign on their lawn, etc.?
 

Skakeholder

Star Member
May 16, 2014
93
1
Category........
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
Tolerance
C-24 could receive the Royal Sanction this summer
Bad news of the day.. :( :(

At least "could" is better than "will" or "shall"... :)