Big delay on citizenship application

[Xenon21]

Then apply for a new PR card. It’s not a problem. You’ll have that before your trip in October. Why risk it?

Unfortunately after speaking to people, the processing time is definitely not 3 months as listed. For many people it’s been 4/5 months and longer to renew the PR card. And urgent renewals are based off losses in family or new job ‍

 

[Xenon21]

I am a June 2021 applicant, test updated to completed in March 2022. I had no updates for 15 months.
I sent about 15 webforms, called many times, had MP office talk to them, ordered GCMS notes. None of this did anything.
After I filed mandamus, language and presence updated to completed on the same day when they sent us their first official formal response.
Don't know if that's related, but an interesting coincidence.

My PR already expired. I applied to renew it 3.5 months ago, and the status is still submitted. I don't think they did anything on that one. They said on the phone that they are working on it back in may, but that's not what the tracker says. I think the agent just wanted to be left alone, so they said whatever.
I do find not being able to easily travel for emergencies quite stressful. PRTD can take months, and I would not be able to work even remotely without a work permit in another country all that time. Of course IRCC cannot feel your suffering, it is a soulless machine...

Oh, maybe it’s worth looking into filing a mandamus. How did you go about it?
Have you got your citizenship yet?

 

[bas12]

Oh, maybe it’s worth looking into filing a mandamus. How did you go about it?
Have you got your citizenship yet?

I just contacted one of the law firms that are being recommended for mandamus by other posters on this forum, and they told me what documents to send them. I also needed to provide them with some information about my situation and how the delay has affected me.
Some people attempt the process on their own, but for me that didn't make sense.

I'm still waiting, it's been less than a month since we started, so we'll see how it goes.

No progress on PR renewal application either after 4 months.

 

[joolery]

I just contacted one of the law firms that are being recommended for mandamus by other posters on this forum, and they told me what documents to send them. I also needed to provide them with some information about my situation and how the delay has affected me.
Some people attempt the process on their own, but for me that didn't make sense.

I'm still waiting, it's been less than a month since we started, so we'll see how it goes.

No progress on PR renewal application either after 4 months.

Do you mind sharing how much the law firm charges for their services for this?

 

[vancity_gt]

I am a June 2021 applicant, test updated to completed in March 2022. I had no updates for 15 months.
I sent about 15 webforms, called many times, had MP office talk to them, ordered GCMS notes. None of this did anything.
After I filed mandamus, language and presence updated to completed on the same day when they sent us their first official formal response.
Don't know if that's related, but an interesting coincidence.

My PR already expired. I applied to renew it 3.5 months ago, and the status is still submitted. I don't think they did anything on that one. They said on the phone that they are working on it back in may, but that's not what the tracker says. I think the agent just wanted to be left alone, so they said whatever.
I do find not being able to easily travel for emergencies quite stressful. PRTD can take months, and I would not be able to work even remotely without a work permit in another country all that time. Of course IRCC cannot feel your suffering, it is a soulless machine...

May I ask how long after an application is mandamus a good idea? How much did it cost for the lawyer. I know a few people who filed mandamus and got a response immediately and they say it's almost a coincidence but everyone can't have the same coincidence.

 

[adamsands25]

Never realized so many waiting from January 2022 applications. Test completed in October 2022. BG complete. Nothing since then. Gave test from outside Canada.

 

[adamsands25]

Hi
I was wondering if anyone else is in a similar position to me and knows what I could do to try and get some sort of update on my application.

In January 2022, I sent my application for citizenship in with the receipt on March 2022.
September 2022: background verification complete
October 2022: citizenship test done and passed

Since then, I have not received any update! It’s been 15 months and my language skills, physical presence and prohibitions is still in process.
My PR card is also expiring in October so I am now worried.

Has anyone had this long a wait and can provide me with some hope? Is there any way I can see what progress there is or can speed things up?

Thank you

Did you give your test from outside Canada ?

 

[bas12]

Do you mind sharing how much the law firm charges for their services for this?

There are 3 stages, each about 2000-2500 plus taxes. Very few people have to go through all 3, but 2 is likely. They also might bill extra hours if the case ends up needing extra work. So, I probably won't know how much it will cost me until it is over.
Different lawyers charge differently, so if the cost is important, I recommend calling around.

 

[bas12]

May I ask how long after an application is mandamus a good idea? How much did it cost for the lawyer. I know a few people who filed mandamus and got a response immediately and they say it's almost a coincidence but everyone can't have the same coincidence.

Now most firms seem to be taking these cases at 18-20 months mark. When is the best time to do this I cannot tell you, I'm not a lawyer myself. For the costs, see above

 

[dpenabill]

October 2022: citizenship test done and passed . . .
It’s been 15 months and my language skills, physical presence and prohibitions is still in process.

Citizenship application processing timelines vary considerably. Near impossible to predict when next step will happen for any particular applicant.

You could be scheduled for the oath any day now. Or not for many months.


Anticipating Travel After PR card Expires

I will be travelling in October and since I work as a pharmacist, I will need to get back into Canada to work.

Then apply for a new PR card.

If you anticipate needing to travel in the coming months, any time this year, best to apply for a new PR card. Best by such a wide margin it bears emphasis and repeating.

You may be pressing the timeline now for October travel, but again the prudent, rational approach to your situation is just as @yyzstudent suggests: apply for a new PR card, and do this as soon as you can.

That's really the sum and substance of it now. You may learn you are scheduled for the oath in the coming days, maybe within a week or month, and did not need to make a PR card application. BUT there is NO guarantee of that, NO assurance you will be taking the oath anytime soon. So, again, if you anticipate the need to travel in the coming months, the best you can do to protect yourself is to apply now for a new PR card.

I will further address the availability of recourse most label "Mandamus" below, but even assuming you currently have the most compelling case for a writ of mandamus, and you begin that process this coming week, the prospect that will lead to taking the oath soon enough to facilitate international travel in October is remote. Pursuing mandamus should not delay taking the oath, so again it is possible you could be scheduled for the oath in the coming days or weeks; but otherwise, pursuing mandamus at this stage is not likely to meet October travel needs. (There is some chance a proper and well-crafted demand letter, the necessary prerequisite to filing an application to the Federal Court for the mandamus writ, could prompt IRCC to schedule the oath sooner, soon enough, but the odds of this are NOT favourable -- see further discussion about mandamus below.)

Unfortunately after speaking to people, the processing time is definitely not 3 months as listed. For many people it’s been 4/5 months and longer to renew the PR card. And urgent renewals are based off losses in family or new job ?

Actually overall, for the vast majority of PRs living here in Canada, for whom there are no Residency Obligation concerns, no criminality or security clouds in their cases, a new PR card is generally approved and issued within days or a week or so of the processing time posted by IRCC. Sure, there are lots of exceptions. A lot of PRs are cutting-it-close. More than a few are not clearly settled and living PERMANENTLY in Canada. Lots of reasons some will encounter non-routine processing delays.

The currently posted timeline, 95 days, is fairly long compared to what it typically is except during certain unusual periods. It was way worse for a long while during the peak of covid, for example.

No guarantee, not at all, but there should be a good chance that most PR card applications being submitted right now will result in a getting a new card in less than three months. Maybe not. For many it will take longer even if the processing time for applications made now is shorter than the currently posted timeline. But odds should be good for the majority . . . again, for those living here in Canada, for whom there are no Residency Obligation concerns, no criminality or security clouds in their cases.

Bottom-line: other than relying on hoping and wishing to be scheduled for the oath soon, if you are going to be traveling outside Canada after the date your current PR card expires, your best shot is to make the application for a PR card SOON. Otherwise, you will be relying on getting a PR TD or being able to travel via the U.S. (Reminder: if you can travel via the U.S., that is one way to return to Canada after the PR card expires: fly to an airport near the Canadian border and take ground transportation to the border.)




Risk and Duty All the PR's; Rational, Reasonable Planning and Preparation:

Seems quite unfair that people are put in this position where their PR will expire before they potentially get citizenship.

I cannot address what is fair or unfair (I'm old and cranky, mired in the view the whole world is unfair, weary with a heavy heart there is not much if anything I can do about that), and I generally avoid getting tangled in opinions about how-things-should-work when discussing how-things-do-work and how best to navigate the system given how-things-do-work; just the latter can get complicated and confusing enough.

In terms of making decisions, like whether to apply for a new PR card, or when, or choosing how to best navigate going forward (including whether to pursue obtaining a writ of mandamus for example), clearly a PR's attention and concern is best focused on how-things-actually-work; and in this regard, obviously, any PR whose PR card is expiring within the coming year, and anticipating the possibility of international travel, should be planning and preparing to apply for and obtain a new PR card. While at times IRCC allows applications to be made sooner, it generally allows PRs to make the application for at least six months prior to the card's expiration (last I looked, it currently allows this up to nine months before the card expires). Just as obviously, the risk for failing to make an application in time for future travel is entirely on the PR. That said, IRCC will provide expedited processing in some circumstances qualifying as urgent; this should NOT be relied on however.

Since there is no right to citizenship, as such (even for persons born in Canada by the way), and there is no statutory requirements limiting the processing time for grant citizenship applications, no regulations specifying processing timelines, and given the history of CIC/IRCC citizenship application processing, which is dominated by periods in which many, many applicants suffer lengthy processing timelines, those applying for citizenship cannot reasonably expect to take the oath and obtain a Canadian passport within any particular time frame. In the meantime, even when scheduled for the oath, until the day the oath is actually taken a Canadian PR is just that, a PR. The only reasonable, prudent approach to making decisions in anticipation of traveling outside Canada is to recognize what a PR needs to make the return trip to Canada. So, unless the PR is a U.S. citizen (ain't they special; seems they generally think so), the PR will need a valid PR card or to obtain a PR Travel Document if they want to board a flight coming to Canada from abroad. It's a no-brainer: PLAN ACCORDINGLY.

I will try to request the GCMS notes. How long does it take to receive them?

As others noted, this is not likely to trigger action on your application any sooner than what will happen anyway. It is not likely the copy of records you receive will illuminate much at all about what is happening with your application. But a year and a half into it, might be time to do this just to check, to see if there is something that is off that could be addressed.

Regarding Mandamus:

Oh, maybe it’s worth looking into filing a mandamus. How did you go about it?

The Writ of Mandamus is an extraordinary remedy available to compel a government agency to do an act the law mandates it must do. It really is "extraordinary," meaning the Federal Court does NOT usually grant such relief.

There is no law mandating that IRCC process citizenship applications within any particular time, so the Federal Court has NO authority to grant mandamus to compel IRCC to even process a citizenship application based on how long the application has been in process.

There must be MORE than just a lengthy processing time to qualify for a Writ of Mandamus. There must be an unreasonable failure to process the application for a delay to constitute grounds justifying mandamus.

Moreover, the procedure itself is burdened with technicalities. Some individuals may be capable of pursuing this recourse without the aid of a lawyer, but the vast majority are not.

Will further address mandamus in another post . . .

 

[dpenabill]

More Regarding Mandamus:

Some people attempt the process on their own, but for me that didn't make sense.

If pursuing mandamus is going to have a positive impact moving the application forward, that usually happens in IRCC's initial response to the demand made. Individuals can make such a demand themselves but the anecdotal evidence overwhelmingly indicates that IRCC tends to give very little weight, if any, to such demand letters UNLESS the demand is submitted by a lawyer. This is probably not just due to bias, but probably due to the fact that to qualify for mandamus, for the demand to make an effective case that IRCC has a mandate to take action, that case must be precisely made based on particular provisions of law and clearly specify the grounds, and to make the case in regards to a citizenship application this is complex and difficult, since again just the length of time itself, even if two or three years, is NOT enough to establish grounds.

Now most firms seem to be taking these cases at 18-20 months mark. When is the best time to do this I cannot tell you, I'm not a lawyer myself.

I too am not a Canadian lawyer and cannot say "when." I do not know how most law firms approach requests for mandamus by citizenship applicants. I suspect there is a significant difference between cases in which lawyers anticipate the prospect of persuading IRCC to more quickly complete processing, in response to the lawyer initiating the procedure for pursuing mandamus, and those cases in which lawyers are confident there is a case which will persuade a Federal Court to actually grant the writ.

This goes back to what appears to work best, most often. And that is the solid, well-crafted, compelling demand letter. It appears, based on a fair amount of anecdotal reporting, if pursuing mandamus is going to accelerate when the oath is scheduled, it is usually because IRCC takes positive action in response to the demand. Some of the anecdotal reporting indicates that sometimes the lawyer needs to take it to the next step, which is actually making the application to the Federal Court, to persuade IRCC to take positive action accelerating action on the application.

Many lawyers, as @bas12 noted, will charge substantial fees for each of the steps.

The final step, if IRCC does not positively respond and proceed to complete processing following the demand letter, or the filing of the Writ application itself, is to proceed through the judicial process, actually litigating the application for the Writ in the Federal Court. While IRCC might also elect to resolve things during this stage, such as after the formal filing of documents supporting the application, the outcome at this stage is less about what will persuade IRCC to accelerate processing, and more about to what extent the law, as determined by a Federal Court justice, mandates action by IRCC. NOT many succeed at this stage. NOT many at all.

What this means, in practical terms, is that it appears IRCC can be persuaded, by lawyers, to accelerate processing in some cases, in response to the lawyer's demand and pursuit of mandamus relief, but that actually getting Mandamus relief from the Federal Court is very difficult, at best elusive.

However, it is also difficult to judge to what extent these demands are actually resulting in IRCC accelerating the process, or by how much. It appears lawyers are not taking on and presenting these cases until the case has already been in process so long that next steps and scheduling the oath should be coming soon anyway.

Leading to . . .

I know a few people who filed mandamus and got a response immediately and they say it's almost a coincidence but everyone can't have the same coincidence.

I will address what I suspect this comment is actually about, below, but first (at the risk of illustrating I really am a cranky old man), let's clear the deck here:

"I know a few people who filed mandamus and got a response immediately . . ."​

Immediately? Even allowing for loosely employed informal language, this is clearly beyond the range of hyperbole or exaggeration. And is undoubtedly not about getting a response to filing a mandamus pleading in the Federal Court.

More practically, this comment is probably about a fairly quick (but nowhere near immediate) response by IRCC, taking action or agreeing to take action on a citizenship application, following a properly made demand submitted to IRCC by a lawyer. Taking action, let alone agreeing to take action, does not mean the applicant will be soon scheduled for the oath. And in many cases the response can be something like "we have received your request and can confirm your application is in process. We will update you as further action is taken."

While an "immediate" response is not expected, a timely if not prompt response to a formal request is something reasonably anticipated, which is not to say the response will be the one the applicant is hoping for. Unfortunately, it appears (based on a fair amount of anecdotal reporting) that IRCC often fails to respond at all, let alone promptly or even timely, never mind "immediately," to formal mandamus demand notices/letters UNLESS the demand is made by a lawyer. But if and when made by a lawyer, the demand notice/letter should generally prompt a response.

As I noted, this comment by @vancity_gt is probably about IRCC responding to such a demand notice/letter, and actually more than "a few people" are credibly reporting that IRCC has, apparently in response to the demand, proceeded to advance processing the application and even soon scheduling the oath. As I noted above, it is difficult to judge to what extent these demands are actually resulting in IRCC accelerating the process, or by how much. Many if not most of these cases involve applications very likely ripe to be completed anyway.

This leads some to describe the correlation between the demand made by a lawyer and IRCC taking action to advance processing as a "coincidence." In many instances it very well might be just correlation in time. Obviously, "a few people" is far, far shy of everyone, so we cannot reliably say which are coincidence and which were propelled ahead sooner as a result of the lawyer's demand.

On the other hand, it is clear that not everyone gets a timely positive response advancing the processing of their application. We do not know much about the numbers. In one of the other topics here where mandamus is discussed in some depth I recall someone quoting a lawyer's general statistics, but I do not recall what they were; best I recall they were so general as to not illuminate more than what we already know and can reasonably discern:

-- for clearly qualified applicants whose application has been pending for an extra-ordinary long time compared to other comparable applicants in the same region (local office), for whom there is no actual concern causing a delay or non-routine processing, a lawyer's demand probably has good odds of pushing IRCC to take action sooner than it would have, and that said --​

-- -- the odds are fairly good that IRCC is going to proceed to complete such applications relatively soon anyway​

​

-- for some applicants, perhaps more than a few, there are outstanding concerns or questions which are stalling things and while a lawyer's demand may help to push the case ahead some, the timeline ahead will be dictated mostly by what concerns or issues IRCC has and how long it takes to resolve these​

​

-- problematic cases depend on the particulars in that specific case . . . a few months ago, in one of the topics here, I discussed the case where it took MORE than TWENTY years after the application was made for one individual to obtain a Writ of Mandamus from the Federal Court; the latter is extreme, extremely rare not just unusual, but cases bogged down for three to six or more years are not all that uncommon, each depending on the particular facts in their specific case​

Overall:

Generally pursuing mandamus is for the affluent who can afford to spend a few thousand, or more, to try to get done a little faster what would get done anyway. BUT there are some cases in which mandamus is indeed an important resource which might be needed. There are a couple hundred thousand citizenship applications a year, more or less, so yep, quite a few get tangled in the bureaucratic mire even though they should be more easily and timely processed, and it can take a lawyer to get things sorted out and back on track.

 

[yyzstudent]

I cannot address what is fair or unfair (I'm old and cranky, mired in the view the whole world is unfair, weary with a heavy heart there is not much if anything I can do about that),
/../
So, unless the PR is a U.S. citizen (ain't they special; seems they generally think so),

Well, that’s that keyboard done then.
(Desperately wiping the whisky I sprayed.)

 

[bas12]

Well, you don't need to be very affluent for mandamus to make sense.
People have their lives disrupted a great deal by IRCC delays, and sometimes take a hit to their career due to the application not being processed in a reasonable amount of time.
Let's say someone can get a job that pays just 5K a year more if they get a Canadian passport sooner. Then, even if mandamus ends up costing 10K this would pay off in just 2 years. There is a number of other ways you can miss out on career and development opportunities due to not having papers.
And that is not even taking into account more serious personal issues the delays and uncertaintly can cause, which can cost you a lot more in monetary and other ways.

This is all just my opinion

 

[Xenon21]

Did you give your test from outside Canada ?

yes.

 

[dpenabill]

Did you give your test from outside Canada ?

yes.

While it is difficult to sort out actual causation of delays in processing a particular application, there is a known correlation between IRCC's perception that a citizenship applicant has relocated abroad, or is outside Canada for an extended period of time comparable to residing outside Canada, and an increased risk of delays relative to other applicants applying at the same time and being processed in the same local office. Even though taking the test while outside Canada does not necessarily mean the PR is living abroad, odds are this sometimes triggers the perception the applicant has relocated abroad, in turn triggering elevated scrutiny, which may be about verifying physical presence or clearing prohibitions, or both, leading to delays. Again, it is difficult to say that is what explains why YOUR application is proceeding more slowly, but it is, as one might say, among the usual suspects.

If so, this would be another sign that pursuing mandamus relief at this juncture is NOT likely to resolve issues arising from the need to travel after PR card expires later this year.

Hopefully you are nearing the end of the process and will be scheduled for the oath soon. In the meantime, however, there is no guarantee that will happen (probably good chance, but far shy of a sure bet), so unless you can travel via the U.S. to return to Canada, you will be relying on obtaining a PR TD if you are abroad after your PR card card expires and you have not been delivered a new one. Best to orient your decision making accordingly.

Well, you don't need to be very affluent for mandamus to make sense.
People have their lives disrupted a great deal by IRCC delays, and sometimes take a hit to their career due to the application not being processed in a reasonable amount of time.
Let's say someone can get a job that pays just 5K a year more if they get a Canadian passport sooner. Then, even if mandamus ends up costing 10K this would pay off in just 2 years. There is a number of other ways you can miss out on career and development opportunities due to not having papers.
And that is not even taking into account more serious personal issues the delays and uncertaintly can cause, which can cost you a lot more in monetary and other ways.

This is all just my opinion

Let's try to be honest, and focus on what is known, in particular on information that will help PRs applying for citizenship make decisions, decisions like IF and WHEN it might be efficacious to invest in pursuing mandamus relief.

Mandamus and a Limited Time Offer for a Career Opportunity:

If a career opportunity dependent on having a Canadian passport opens with only a narrow window in time to take advantage of it, electing then to pursue mandamus relief is not likely to save the day. Mandamus relief is not quick relief.

While some may report that filing for mandamus has generated an "immediate" response, there is a preliminary procedural process that MUST be followed in order to even file an action for mandamus relief, and that takes time. Moreover, if IRCC has not already taken action to approve the application and schedule the oath during the preliminary procedure that must precede filing an application for the writ, and the PR is actually filing, in the Federal Court, an action seeking the writ of mandamus, the odds are very high that the process leading to a FC hearing alone will take many months and quite likely a year or more; moreover, those who are deciding whether to file a mandamus action in the FC, based on delayed processing, should be aware that very, very few of these are successful.

So that reporting, as to immediate relief, is either malarkey, or is at best hyperbolic and actually about getting a positive response from IRCC in response to the initial step in pursuing mandamus-relief (the demand notice). Even as to the latter, which clearly is the practical objective in hiring a lawyer with the hope (emphasis on hope) that will accelerate the time remaining to taking the oath, there is little reliable reporting demonstrating it succeeds in leading to the oath very much sooner except, perhaps, for a FEW applicants. Moreover, in the best case scenario with the fastest timeline (which most applicants will not have), even this will take a significant amount of time. Even in these best case scenarios, many times the applicant will still be unable to anticipate, with any confidence, when they will actually be scheduled for the oath, be that in the coming weeks or so (more likely months).

Neither quick enough nor reliable enough, with some roll of the dice or otherwise unusual exceptions, to take advantage of a sudden, limited time career opportunity.

Other Scenarios; OP's Situation in Particular:

For the OP here, PR card expiring in October and apprehending a need to travel internationally in October, there is no better than a remote chance that a lawyer-submitted demand as a preliminary step in pursuing mandamus relief will save the day. Hopefully a PR card application ($50 fee, a little or so less than 10 grand) will.

For sure, if it were to go beyond the demand stage, for the OP there is virtually no chance that an application to the Federal Court seeking the grant of mandamus will result in obtaining a Canadian passport by October. In the meantime it is possible (and given the timeline perhaps probable) the OP will be scheduled for the oath in time to obtain a Canadian passport by October, anyway, but given the amount of time it takes to pursue mandamus relief, unless it is IRCC that decides (prior to any Court order) to proceed to complete the process and schedule the oath, a Federal Court action will not get the OP there. It could easily take a year for the Federal Court to even hear and decide the case.

Addressing IRCC's Dismal Timeline Performance Generally:

The impact of IRCC's notoriously and dismally slow processing, which far too many suffer, warrants a concerted overt effort to not just encourage but compel improvement. However, mandamus is not the remedy for this. Appropriate advocacy regarding this issue (but ranging widely in efficacy) is discussed in many topics here.

Distinguishing Availability of Mandamus Relief on Other Grounds:

There are other situations involving citizenship applications in which the prospective availability of mandamus relief is an important remedy. It can make the difference between getting the grant of citizenship or being denied. Who, why, and when, is a broad and complex subject, DIFFERENT from, DISTINGUISHABLE from employing the mandamus procedure in an effort to accelerate an otherwise no-question-qualified applicant's timeline to taking the oath.

Make no mistake: the accelerated timeline to taking the oath by a no-issues, clearly-qualified applicant is about prodding IRCC to decide to act sooner, prodded by what many would describe as a threat of legal action. Success in this regard is all about persuading IRCC to act sooner than it would have, toward approving the application and scheduling the oath sooner; this is not about compelling IRCC. And it will NOT work unless the applicant is among those who have no issues (no lingering questions about physical presence for example) and is clearly-qualified . . . that is, it will not work unless the application is already very close to completion anyway.

Stated from the other direction: If the application is not already in a ready-to-schedule-oath condition, that is if there are issues or questions IRCC still has, the applicant is probably looking at a significantly longer timeline DESPITE a demand made by a lawyer.

Otherwise, if IRCC is not persuaded to proceed sooner based on the demand, the timeline ahead will NOT be short, and indeed it could go long. If things reach the stage where an actual action in the FC is filed, seeking the writ, the odds are there is a long road ahead.


Reminder:

Finally, a reminder, there is NO mandamus available to compel IRCC to process a citizenship application within any particular time period, definitely NOT within what many would categorize as a "reasonable amount of time."

At the least, to be grounds for mandamus relief the unreasonableness of the delay in the current stage of processing must generally be such as to more or less, in its effect, be a refusal to process the application and a breach of procedural fairness. A very high bar. High enough bar one that one does not see many, no where near many, cases in which the Writ is actually granted for a delay in processing a citizenship application. While the amount of time is an important factor, time is NOT dispositive.

The hope, again emphasis on it being "hope," is that a lawyer's demand will prompt IRCC to choose to proceed sooner. And for more than a few that likely succeeds, relatively, as in not necessarily all that quickly and not necessarily a whole lot sooner.