Applied with less than 1095 days! Big mistake

[dpenabill]

There are multiple topics and multiple reports in this forum indicating some (not necessarily many, let alone most) shortfall applicants are still being scheduled to take the oath.

Moreover, there are some recent Federal Court decisions in which the Federal Court rejected CIC appeals in cases where the Citizenship Judge approved a shortfall applicant for citizenship.

So there is reason to hope, depending, however, on the particular facts of the case, the merits, including perhaps the applicant's ability to go to a CJ hearing and make a case for applying a qualitative residency test rather than the strict physical presence test, largely by showing the extent to which the applicant's life was centralized in Canada (for at least three years prior to applying).

Also see a very recent report of shortfall applicant's success in one such other topic:

Hi

I just this forum joined to share my experience. This site provided me valuable information so I'd like to return the favour.

I applied for Citizenship before reaching Physical Presence and it got granted. Now, I do not advise anyone to do this.

My particular situation:
- I had the number of calendar days required to apply for citizenship.
- I was 100 days short to meet the physical presence. My absences were due to vacation, I work and live in Canada.
- Applied in Oct 2012.
- I decided to apply because the requirements were changing back in Nov 2012 and if I had waited, I needed to prove I knew English which I learned when I was a kid and I didn't want to take any kind of tests.
- In Dec 2013 they asked for additional documents, a Residence Questionnaire which I sent with 100+ pages of documents to prove I lived here.
- In Aug 2014 I wrote and passed the Citizenship test. Official that reviewed my file after the test told me that because I applied before meeting the physical presence my application will have to be reviewed by a judge and that it could take up to 8 months. Said that I'd be better if I withdrew my application and re-apply. I decided to take my chances.
- Oct 2015. Once my application exceeded the 36 months, I called the call centre to inquiry about my file and why it was taking so long.
- Nov 2015 got an appointment to meet a judge. Judge reviewed my file and asked my about my ties to Canada, I was able to tell he followed the Koo test I read about somewhere. Judge was very nice to speak with.
- Jan 2016. My application was granted.

If I had known I'd take so long and that I was going to be under so much stress thinking it was going to be rejected, I'd have waited to meet the physical presence and write the English proficiency test. Many friends that applied after me, got their application approved within 8 months.

My advise, wait until you meet all the requirements.

 

[Exports]

There are multiple topics and multiple reports in this forum indicating some (not necessarily many, let alone most) shortfall applicants are still being scheduled to take the oath.

Moreover, there are some recent Federal Court decisions in which the Federal Court rejected CIC appeals in cases where the Citizenship Judge approved a shortfall applicant for citizenship.

So there is reason to hope, depending, however, on the particular facts of the case, the merits, including perhaps the applicant's ability to go to a CJ hearing and make a case for applying a qualitative residency test rather than the strict physical presence test, largely by showing the extent to which the applicant's life was centralized in Canada (for at least three years prior to applying).

Also see a very recent report of shortfall applicant's success in one such other topic:

CJ hearing is understood for shortfall of applications if it was with any SPECIFIC TIME FRAME. But the BIG QUESTION IS however, when is the end to CJ hearing? There is no specific time frame. I had enquired twice through the IRCC Ministers office RECENTLY for the time frame and they got the same answer from Scarborough office " No time frame provided ". I received the ATIP also with the same specific wording.

In the forum, almost all applicants scheduled for CJ hearing have got the judge hearing only after a year- I could recollect atleast 3 getting CJ hearing almost after 12-15 months.

I wish if they could resolve this issue of time frame as time is the essence. Numerous attempts to reach the IRCC through letters, case specific enquiry is leading to the same path of no time frame provided.
Also it is worth noting and drawing conclusion to see some candidates outcome with self declared less days than 1095 Vs some who had made honest mistakes of completing 1095 with some calculation mistakes leading to CJ hearing.

 

[ivana]

Hello,
Thanks for the responses. I will keep you guys posted. My case is strait forward [so I think]. I made a mistake, which I will admit to the judge. Our home is here now, have proof of that. To tell you the truth, we are prepare for the worse since we made a MISTAKE. We will take many many documents with us to show that our home is Canada and have no intentions on leaving after citizenship, but like I said before, we made a mistake and know we are paying for the consequences.

 

[ivana]

Hello guys,
We finish out meeting around noon today. Let me tell you that it was absolutely stressful [to say the least]. Here it goes...
My meeting was at 8:30 am. It went on for one hour and fifteen minutes. I feel the Judge was not in a great mood. We had around five kilograms of papers with us:
- Bank statements
- Credit card statements
- Taxes done by H&R block [for every year since we moved to Canada]
- Tax acknowledgments
- Child tax acknowledgments
- Original applications
- Passports [expired and current for all family members]
- PR cards [expired and current for all family members]
- BC Hydro statements
- Birth Certificates
- Rent agreements [old and new ones]
- Records of landing
- Translated copies of stamps for every single passport [total of eight]
- Original flight tickets [many many many]
- Education certificates for both adults
- Education paper work for kids
- Health records for all family members including immunization records [and visit to the doctor]
- USA and Canadian records of leaving and entering the country
- Original applications for PR's and Citizenship
- Record of voluntary work with the community

I think that was it.
Well, I get in there and the Judge says nothing for around 10 minutes. She makes me sign a paper saying that I was there and she was going to revised my files.
She had all my files in front of her. She went on for around 45 minutes pointing out the days I missed. I said sorry around 55 times. She sounded irritated by the fact that I missed days. The whole hearing was about my missing days ONLY, nothing else! She did not even ask for any paper from me.
At one point she asked me why I applied with less days [same question 5 times], I simply responded that I made a mistake and I was sorry. Then she says... you have an excuse for everything. Well, after that, I shut down and answer: yes, don't remember or no.
I think she could feel my frustration and let it go a little.
Then she asked me why I want to become a Canadian Citizen and that was it...

Guys, I truly feel it did NOT went well. She told me to wait for 60 days for a response.
That was it. If you have any questions, please let me know. I hope this helps, but I feel it does not since we all have different circumstances and after all, the Judge is a human being just like you. I should not feel this way, but it could had been better if the Judge was in a better mood [this is just my personal opinion, please don't go crazy in this last sentence, it just a thought]

 

[dpenabill]

Hello guys,
We finish out meeting around noon today. Let me tell you that it was absolutely stressful [to say the least]. Here it goes...


. . . I truly feel it did NOT went well. She told me to wait for 60 days for a response.
That was it.

If I may inquire, did you submit and leave with the Citizenship Judge any additional documentation?

I also wonder to what extent you were prepared to affirmatively present a case that you deserved to have a qualitative test of residency applied to your case and that in addition to the days present you had centralized your life in Canada. To be granted citizenship when short of days the CJ has to apply a qualitative test and not the strict physical presence test . . . if short, and the presence test is applied, that guarantees denial (since that test is not met).

There have been recent reports of other applicants being scheduled for the oath despite having a shortfall, so it can still turn out favourably.

Please let us know how it turns out. Good luck.

 

[Exports]

So today I received ATIP publishing for statistics of average days from the time of test to CJ hearing.
It is almost average of 36 months for Mississauga office and 19 months for Scarborough--- certainly not worth the date (average of 2013, 2014 and 15)

 

[Canadiandesi2006]

Hello guys,
We finish out meeting around noon today. Let me tell you that it was absolutely stressful [to say the least]. Here it goes...
My meeting was at 8:30 am. It went on for one hour and fifteen minutes. I feel the Judge was not in a great mood. We had around five kilograms of papers with us:
- Bank statements
- Credit card statements
- Taxes done by H&R block [for every year since we moved to Canada]
- Tax acknowledgments
- Child tax acknowledgments
- Original applications
- Passports [expired and current for all family members]
- PR cards [expired and current for all family members]
- BC Hydro statements
- Birth Certificates
- Rent agreements [old and new ones]
- Records of landing
- Translated copies of stamps for every single passport [total of eight]
- Original flight tickets [many many many]
- Education certificates for both adults
- Education paper work for kids
- Health records for all family members including immunization records [and visit to the doctor]
- USA and Canadian records of leaving and entering the country
- Original applications for PR's and Citizenship
- Record of voluntary work with the community

I think that was it.
Well, I get in there and the Judge says nothing for around 10 minutes. She makes me sign a paper saying that I was there and she was going to revised my files.
She had all my files in front of her. She went on for around 45 minutes pointing out the days I missed. I said sorry around 55 times. She sounded irritated by the fact that I missed days. The whole hearing was about my missing days ONLY, nothing else! She did not even ask for any paper from me.
At one point she asked me why I applied with less days [same question 5 times], I simply responded that I made a mistake and I was sorry. Then she says... you have an excuse for everything. Well, after that, I shut down and answer: yes, don't remember or no.
I think she could feel my frustration and let it go a little.
Then she asked me why I want to become a Canadian Citizen and that was it...

Guys, I truly feel it did NOT went well. She told me to wait for 60 days for a response.
That was it. If you have any questions, please let me know. I hope this helps, but I feel it does not since we all have different circumstances and after all, the Judge is a human being just like you. I should not feel this way, but it could had been better if the Judge was in a better mood [this is just my personal opinion, please don't go crazy in this last sentence, it just a thought]

I'm sorry to hear about your experience. I had same experience the CJ keep telling, I dont have time to review your documents. She told, since now you are eligible under new rules just withdraw and re-apply. I pleaded with her to check my documents you listed above but she refused.

I was shocked when CJ told, even if she approve the CIC would appeal. If so, what's point in dragging applications 3 years for CJ hearing, if the CJ's have no authority and scared their decisions will be overruled by CIC Officers. Is'nt farce drama, waste of time and resources of all ?

Would'nt its make more sense if CIC officers give options, withdraw the application or go to CJ hearing in 3 years, let the candidates decide.

 

[heeradeepak]

I'm sorry to hear about your experience. I had same experience the CJ keep telling, I dont have time to review your documents. She told, since now you are eligible under new rules just withdraw and re-apply. I pleaded with her to check my documents you listed above but she refused.

I was shocked when CJ told, even if she approve the CIC would appeal. If so, what's point in dragging applications 3 years for CJ hearing, if the CJ's have no authority and scared their decisions will be overruled by CIC Officers. Is'nt farce drama, waste of time and resources of all ?

Would'nt its make more sense if CIC officers give options, withdraw the application or go to CJ hearing in 3 years, let the candidates decide.

If CJ also afraid from CIC so what a common man can do?

 

[ivana]

Thanks guys,
dpenabill, nope, she did not want any documents. Nothing. Also, I was more than prepared for it. She seemed not to care. At the end of the day, I made the mistake. Now, I have to pay for it. There is no way around it. I just wish it did not drag this long.

Canadiandesi2006, at the moment, I just don't feel like re-applying, I am just going to let a few months pass. I still shock about the experience, which, still my mistake... I am just not happy about the way it was conducted. Nothing I can do.

I will let you know once anything else comes in. Thanks for the support! Good luck guys.

 

[dpenabill]

Thanks guys,
dpenabill, nope, she did not want any documents. Nothing. Also, I was more than prepared for it. She seemed not to care. At the end of the day, I made the mistake. Now, I have to pay for it. There is no way around it. I just wish it did not drag this long.

Canadiandesi2006, at the moment, I just don't feel like re-applying, I am just going to let a few months pass. I still shock about the experience, which, still my mistake... I am just not happy about the way it was conducted. Nothing I can do.

I will let you know once anything else comes in. Thanks for the support! Good luck guys.

You actually had a right to submit additional documents, to in effect insist they be made a part of the record (doing so when the CJ is resistant is, of course, awkward at best -- alienating the CJ can guarantee a strict application of the physical presence test, and the CJ has the discretion to do that without explaining why or having any supporting reasons for doing so). And a right to make an affirmative case beyond responding to questions. (Similar problem, as in remaining polite and non-confrontational while trying to overcome the CJ's reluctance or even outright opposition to additional submissions.)

Some shortfall applications are being approved, the applicants taking the oath. And you might be surprised. (Though if I recall the extent of your error resulted in a significant shortfall so it probably is a bit of a long shot.)

But if the case is referred to a CJ for a hearing, the applicant needs to, in effect, take control of his or her case in order to make the case that a test like the Koo criteria should be applied (including why) and that the applicant meets the residency requirement pursuant to that test. NOT easy stuff for a non-lawyer, and probably not that easy or routine for most immigration lawyers either.

In another forum I have posted a lot about hearing preparation. I backed off doing this a long while ago to avoid appearing to promote making the shortfall application and, frankly, it appears difficult to have much impact on the outcome at the late stage of the hearing without going to the expense of hiring one of the more high-powered lawyers (and even then, shortfall cases are what they are, especially those which involve discrepancies or errors in what the applicant initially submitted, which tends to make the case more difficult).

In any event, please let us know about the actual outcome. There are still scores of applicants who applied with a shortfall prior to last June, so lots of eyes and ears concerned about how these cases tend to go.

 

[Lily2011]

If you don't mind me asking: How soon did the online status update after the CJ hearing date notice in the mail?

 

[Canadiandesi2006]

If CJ also afraid from CIC so what a common man can do?

Precisely, if Citizenship Judges got no authority and scared of CIC Officers, why does CIC thrusts the extra baggage on tax payer's money.

Citizenship judges are NOT legal experts, just political appointees. One way of political leaders returning favor by putting them on payroll. In order to justify their roles, CIC assigns them cases mostly to reject. Its sheer wastage of Federal Resources, time of all involved.

 

[Canadiandesi2006]

Thanks guys,
dpenabill, nope, she did not want any documents. Nothing. Also, I was more than prepared for it. She seemed not to care. At the end of the day, I made the mistake. Now, I have to pay for it. There is no way around it. I just wish it did not drag this long.

Canadiandesi2006, at the moment, I just don't feel like re-applying, I am just going to let a few months pass. I still shock about the experience, which, still my mistake... I am just not happy about the way it was conducted. Nothing I can do.

I will let you know once anything else comes in. Thanks for the support! Good luck guys.

I understand your situation, I had similar and terrible experience meeting Citizenship Judge. After postponing hearing a day before the date stating CJ is on vacation, they re-scheduled after 3 months.

I went with documents to prove my strong ties to country, family and kids citizenship certificates, rental agreement for over 8 years, letter from employer, utility bills and credit card statement for over 8 years.

All she told, she has no time to review. She confessed even if she approve, CIC will object. So, the complete premise of Citizenship Judge hearing is farce, an eye wash, criminal wastage of Federal Resources and candidate 4 years in false hopes.

 

[dabas]

Was the entry exit dates you submitted substantially different that what the CJ was looking at? sorry of I misunderstood something but the post imply that there were many missing dates as you say you said sorry 55 times..

Can you pls comment so we can learn from your experience!

 

[ivana]

dabas, that was an exaggeration of my part.. I was missing 17 days, but they were trips to the US. Like I said before, my mistake.
dpenabill, well... I feel like I was prepared, but you may be right. I will just wait for the case to be close. We will see and I will keep you guys posted. It just seem impossible to get approved given her tone, way of taking and some anger on her face [my personal opinion, also being bias].