Applied for PRTD on H&C grounds, Got travel document under the R-1 category

[omarjamalkhatib]

Hello everyone, I asked for help on here a while back about applying for a PRTD on H&C grounds due to being removed from Canada as a child, and therefore not meeting RO. I was told there is a big chance it won't be accepted because I am 22 but that I should apply anyway, so I did. Special thanks to Rish888 and Rob_TO.whose posts were very helpful in that regard.

I just got my passport back from the embassy with a travel document extending for 6 months, however I noticed that it is issued under the R-1 category instead of the RC-1 category which is the correct one for H&C reasons.

The PRTD form I sent was practically empty, most boxes were filled with Not Applicable, and in the attached letter I wrote for the H&C box, I explicitly made it clear why I didn't fulfill my PR obligation and why I hadn't applied earlier, so I find it very perplexing that I am issued a document under a category which, if I understand it correctly, says that I am in compliance!

1- Did the embassy make a mistake? should I contact them and ask them to change it to RC-1?

2- As I understand it this travel document will allow me to go to Canada and stay there for 2 years and then apply for renewal (basicly a much more guaranteed version of trying to cross into Canada through a land border with an expired PR and hoping not to be flagged and reported, then spend 2 years there), this however is not something I am considering since I do not have an SIN, so going to Canada while not being able to work for 2 years is not an option.

3- Will my PR renewal application once I land in Canada be rejected because despite what the embassy seems to think, I was not in compliance?


I tried looking for people in my situation and failed to find useful information. Is it rare for people with expired PRs to be issued R-1 documents?

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Rob_TO]

Seems to be a common occurrence as many posts on the topic.

There was an almost identical experience here. This person had no problem renewing PR card. http://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/i-was-issued-r-1-prtd-what-does-this-mean.506020/#post-6202578

Since the PR TD was issued, it doesn't make sense IRCC would expect one to remain in Canada 2 years without being able to apply for a PR card. So I would apply immediately after arriving, and at least based on the other poster's experience you shouldn't have any problems.

 

[dpenabill]

I noticed that it is issued under the R-1 category instead of the RC-1 category which is the correct one for H&C reasons.

While we have seen similar reports, there are no where near enough of them to draw many conclusions about how or why this happens. We are aware that sometimes a visa office might issue a PR TD in what is necessarily an H&C situation without a designation indicating a H&C determination. We are aware of this because it has happened, as reported, including now by you.

We are also aware (assuming reports are reliable) that sometimes the PR issued such a PR TD has been able to apply for and obtain a new PR card without first staying in Canada long enough to be in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation based on meeting the obligation to be in Canada 730 days / five years.

But again, the reports are so few, the factual situations so sketchy, there is not enough information to draw conclusions about the process beyond just that it can and sometimes does happen this way.

We do know some related policies and practices. While no strict principle of res judicata (the thing is decided) applies to decisions like the visa office decision granting a PR TD (which requires the visa office to make a Residency Determination), such determinations are generally recognized as practically binding within the scope of what has been decided. That is, if a PR TD is issued, that constitutes a favourable Residency Determination as of that date. This is not strictly binding on either a CBSA officer conducting an examination at the PoE, nor on an IRCC officer assessing a PR card application. But both the PoE and IRCC inland officers will, so far as we know, generally recognize that decision as valid and binding.

Thus, for example, if either officer identifies reasons to question or not follow the PR TD decision, the officer can do that, and in effect make a new determination.

I believe that a positive H&C decision has greater weight and a more definitive impact than a general PR TD decision, which necessarily depends on a positive Residency Determination (whatever the basis for that determination). Which leads to some speculation about the possible reasoning behind the approach seen in situations like this.




Some speculation about why this approach; no H&C decision even though a positive Residency Determination is factually dependent on H&C considerations:

I do not know, and it is always a stretch to, in effect, second-guess the thinking process that goes on behind the curtains at IRCC, but I wonder if this sort of decision is deliberate since it allows IRCC more flexibility in assessing PR RO compliance going forward.

If the visa office made an overt H&C decision, that in effect gives the PR a fresh start, virtually gives the PR credit as of the day that decision was made. While, again, this is not strictly or absolutely binding, general policy is to recognize it and give it full force and effect.

The difference is that a positive Residency Determination one day does not dictate the calculation on a later date. The calculation can change if the PR has additional absences. A positive H&C decision, in contrast, in effect starts the clock, or calendar, anew.

It is hard to say that a PR TD decision like this is a deliberate practice so that the PR will need to sooner settle and stay in Canada, but nonetheless I can see the logic of giving some PRs a chance to come to Canada and settle and stay, to keep PR status, without giving them the amount of leeway to come and go that an overt H&C decision would.

 

[muhammad hanif]

Applied for PRTD on H&C ground in January 2017. Check status as following;
Your processed passport has been dispatched from the Canada Visa Office ISLAMABAD, on 28/07/2017 to the Canada Visa Application Centre. To know more, please call VAC helpline number or visit VAC website

What is mean that they approved my prtd or not?

 

[omarjamalkhatib]

While we have seen similar reports, there are no where near enough of them to draw many conclusions about how or why this happens. We are aware that sometimes a visa office might issue a PR TD in what is necessarily an H&C situation without a designation indicating a H&C determination. We are aware of this because it has happened, as reported, including now by you.

We are also aware (assuming reports are reliable) that sometimes the PR issued such a PR TD has been able to apply for and obtain a new PR card without first staying in Canada long enough to be in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation based on meeting the obligation to be in Canada 730 days / five years.

But again, the reports are so few, the factual situations so sketchy, there is not enough information to draw conclusions about the process beyond just that it can and sometimes does happen this way.

We do know some related policies and practices. While no strict principle of res judicata (the thing is decided) applies to decisions like the visa office decision granting a PR TD (which requires the visa office to make a Residency Determination), such determinations are generally recognized as practically binding within the scope of what has been decided. That is, if a PR TD is issued, that constitutes a favourable Residency Determination as of that date. This is not strictly binding on either a CBSA officer conducting an examination at the PoE, nor on an IRCC officer assessing a PR card application. But both the PoE and IRCC inland officers will, so far as we know, generally recognize that decision as valid and binding.

Thus, for example, if either officer identifies reasons to question or not follow the PR TD decision, the officer can do that, and in effect make a new determination.

I believe that a positive H&C decision has greater weight and a more definitive impact than a general PR TD decision, which necessarily depends on a positive Residency Determination (whatever the basis for that determination). Which leads to some speculation about the possible reasoning behind the approach seen in situations like this.




Some speculation about why this approach; no H&C decision even though a positive Residency Determination is factually dependent on H&C considerations:

I do not know, and it is always a stretch to, in effect, second-guess the thinking process that goes on behind the curtains at IRCC, but I wonder if this sort of decision is deliberate since it allows IRCC more flexibility in assessing PR RO compliance going forward.

If the visa office made an overt H&C decision, that in effect gives the PR a fresh start, virtually gives the PR credit as of the day that decision was made. While, again, this is not strictly or absolutely binding, general policy is to recognize it and give it full force and effect.

The difference is that a positive Residency Determination one day does not dictate the calculation on a later date. The calculation can change if the PR has additional absences. A positive H&C decision, in contrast, in effect starts the clock, or calendar, anew.

It is hard to say that a PR TD decision like this is a deliberate practice so that the PR will need to sooner settle and stay in Canada, but nonetheless I can see the logic of giving some PRs a chance to come to Canada and settle and stay, to keep PR status, without giving them the amount of leeway to come and go that an overt H&C decision would.

Thanks, I got another question if I applied to renew my PR once I got there is there any possibility that they will cancel my permenant residency or will they tell me to reapply after 2 years ?

 

[dpenabill]

Thanks, I got another question if I applied to renew my PR once I got there is there any possibility that they will cancel my permenant residency or will they tell me to reapply after 2 years ?

It is really, really hard to say this or that is not possible. The realm and range of what is a possibility is practically infinite.

That said, some things are not possible or at least not at all practically possible. For example, IRCC is not going to advise an individual to re-apply for a PR card after waiting two years. IRCC will either approve the PRC application, and thus issue and deliver a new card, or it will not approve the PRC application.

There are various paths for processing the PRC application along the way. Secondary Review, for example, can result in a lengthy delay before IRCC determines whether to issue a new PRC or not. It appears that IRCC does this in some cases in a way that, at least in terms of its effect, essentially amounts to waiting to see if the PR is settled in Canada and remains in Canada.

Even if there was an overtly positive H&C determination made and reflected in the PR TD, there is still some possibility that IRCC could conduct a formal Residency Determination when the PR makes a PRC application and determine the PR RO was not met and there are not sufficient H&C reasons for the PR to keep status. This is NOT likely but it is possible.

Similarly for a PR who has been issued a PR TD which was clearly dependent on H&C reasons but without any overt determination that it was in fact made on the basis of H&C reasons. It is possible that IRCC might conduct its own Residency Determination, if and when the PR applies for a new PRC, and reach a negative conclusion. But that is NOT the likely outcome. The risk for this PR, however, is somewhat higher than for the PR who was issued a PR TD for overtly H&C reasons. There is no reliable way to quantify these risks.

Remember, the PR can always appeal a negative decision. For a PR issued a PR TD and who timely returns to Canada on the PR TD, and who settles in Canada, stays in Canada, the odds of a successful appeal are probably much, much better than PR appeals generally. Thus, for the PR who comes and stays, the odds are good that IRCC will issue and deliver a new PR card, if not promptly then at least after Secondary Review, but even if IRCC makes a negative decision regarding the PRC application, such a PR still has good odds of winning an appeal.

The key is settling and staying in Canada. Otherwise, the odds go in the other direction, and probably by a lot.

Note: I am no expert.

My sense, nonetheless, is that the particular situation, and especially the circumstances of the PR at the time the PR makes the PRC application, will have a big impact on how these things go. The PR who comes to Canada after being issued a PR TD, and clearly settles and stays, should be able to soon apply for a PRC with relatively low risks except for the risk of Secondary Review and a longer processing time. So maybe getting settled first, before making the PRC application, might help the processing go more smoothly.

If you have concerns, however, consult with a licensed lawyer after arriving in Canada and before making the PRC application.

All bets off for a PR who does not settle and is not staying in Canada in this situation.

 

[omarjamalkhatib]

It is really, really hard to say this or that is not possible. The realm and range of what is a possibility is practically infinite.

That said, some things are not possible or at least not at all practically possible. For example, IRCC is not going to advise an individual to re-apply for a PR card after waiting two years. IRCC will either approve the PRC application, and thus issue and deliver a new card, or it will not approve the PRC application.

There are various paths for processing the PRC application along the way. Secondary Review, for example, can result in a lengthy delay before IRCC determines whether to issue a new PRC or not. It appears that IRCC does this in some cases in a way that, at least in terms of its effect, essentially amounts to waiting to see if the PR is settled in Canada and remains in Canada.

Even if there was an overtly positive H&C determination made and reflected in the PR TD, there is still some possibility that IRCC could conduct a formal Residency Determination when the PR makes a PRC application and determine the PR RO was not met and there are not sufficient H&C reasons for the PR to keep status. This is NOT likely but it is possible.

Similarly for a PR who has been issued a PR TD which was clearly dependent on H&C reasons but without any overt determination that it was in fact made on the basis of H&C reasons. It is possible that IRCC might conduct its own Residency Determination, if and when the PR applies for a new PRC, and reach a negative conclusion. But that is NOT the likely outcome. The risk for this PR, however, is somewhat higher than for the PR who was issued a PR TD for overtly H&C reasons. There is no reliable way to quantify these risks.

Remember, the PR can always appeal a negative decision. For a PR issued a PR TD and who timely returns to Canada on the PR TD, and who settles in Canada, stays in Canada, the odds of a successful appeal are probably much, much better than PR appeals generally. Thus, for the PR who comes and stays, the odds are good that IRCC will issue and deliver a new PR card, if not promptly then at least after Secondary Review, but even if IRCC makes a negative decision regarding the PRC application, such a PR still has good odds of winning an appeal.

The key is settling and staying in Canada. Otherwise, the odds go in the other direction, and probably by a lot.

Note: I am no expert.

My sense, nonetheless, is that the particular situation, and especially the circumstances of the PR at the time the PR makes the PRC application, will have a big impact on how these things go. The PR who comes to Canada after being issued a PR TD, and clearly settles and stays, should be able to soon apply for a PRC with relatively low risks except for the risk of Secondary Review and a longer processing time. So maybe getting settled first, before making the PRC application, might help the processing go more smoothly.

If you have concerns, however, consult with a licensed lawyer after arriving in Canada and before making the PRC application.

All bets off for a PR who does not settle and is not staying in Canada in this situation.

I don't have the social insurance number that's the main problem can I get my SIN with an expired PR I can't work and settle down without the SIN if I got my SIN I would wait for 2 years and then apply to renew my PR do u have any idea about the requirements to apply for an SIN I was very young when we became permenant residents how can I get my SIN with an expired PR

 

[Rob_TO]

I don't have the social insurance number that's the main problem can I get my SIN with an expired PR I can't work and settle down without the SIN if I got my SIN I would wait for 2 years and then apply to renew my PR do u have any idea about the requirements to apply for an SIN I was very young when we became permenant residents how can I get my SIN with an expired PR

You can't get a SIN with expired PR card, nor with an old landing document. As far as I know, you must have a valid PR card to apply for your SIN.

Are you sure one wasn't applied for you already by your parents when you were in Canada as a child?

Once arriving back in Canada, you should apply immediately for your PR card renewal. Hopefully you will be fine not being able to work for several months, depending on how long it takes to get new PR card and then the SIN.

You can also go into SIN office or call them, and ask them if there is any other document they will accept to prove your current PR status and get your SIN. Perhaps there is some other way, though if there is I haven't heard of it before.

 

[Buletruck]

It's a bit of a stretch, but I'd try for the SIN with your expired PR card first. The website doesn't mention the requirement for a current PR card, only a PR card, where as it does mention that an IMM1000 or COPR are not valid for a new SIN one year after entry. I would definitely exhaust all possibilities before renewing.

 

[lou-lou80]

Applied for PRTD on H&C ground in January 2017. Check status as following;
Your processed passport has been dispatched from the Canada Visa Office ISLAMABAD, on 28/07/2017 to the Canada Visa Application Centre. To know more, please call VAC helpline number or visit VAC website

What is mean that they approved my prtd or not?

You applied in january???? Prtd took 7 months??? What?

 

[muhammad hanif]

You applied in january???? Prtd took 7 months??? What?

yes 7 months

 

[muhammad hanif]

yes 7 months

my pr card expired in 2007 and I am in pakistan

 

[lou-lou80]

Hello everyone, I asked for help on here a while back about applying for a PRTD on H&C grounds due to being removed from Canada as a child, and therefore not meeting RO. I was told there is a big chance it won't be accepted because I am 22 but that I should apply anyway, so I did. Special thanks to Rish888 and Rob_TO.whose posts were very helpful in that regard.

I just got my passport back from the embassy with a travel document extending for 6 months, however I noticed that it is issued under the R-1 category instead of the RC-1 category which is the correct one for H&C reasons.

The PRTD form I sent was practically empty, most boxes were filled with Not Applicable, and in the attached letter I wrote for the H&C box, I explicitly made it clear why I didn't fulfill my PR obligation and why I hadn't applied earlier, so I find it very perplexing that I am issued a document under a category which, if I understand it correctly, says that I am in compliance!

1- Did the embassy make a mistake? should I contact them and ask them to change it to RC-1?

2- As I understand it this travel document will allow me to go to Canada and stay there for 2 years and then apply for renewal (basicly a much more guaranteed version of trying to cross into Canada through a land border with an expired PR and hoping not to be flagged and reported, then spend 2 years there), this however is not something I am considering since I do not have an SIN, so going to Canada while not being able to work for 2 years is not an option.

3- Will my PR renewal application once I land in Canada be rejected because despite what the embassy seems to think, I was not in compliance?


I tried looking for people in my situation and failed to find useful information. Is it rare for people with expired PRs to be issued R-1 documents?

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

How long did it take you to receive ur prtd and where from? Plz share ur timeline

 

[omarjamalkhatib]

How long did it take you to receive ur prtd and where from? Plz share ur timeline

2 weeks and from jordan amman

 

[omarjamalkhatib]

Thanks

It's a bit of a stretch, but I'd try for the SIN with your expired PR card first. The website doesn't mention the requirement for a current PR card, only a PR card, where as it does mention that an IMM1000 or COPR are not valid for a new SIN one year after entry. I would definitely exhaust all possibilities before renewing.

I'll try to get a social insurance number first if they refused am going to apply to renew my card