Apostasy, fear of persecution.

[HalfRussianHalfJordanian]

How do I prove that? I simply just can't put my life in danger to prove that I am a deist.

you prove that to canadian authorities not to me its the law , anyone can claim what he claimed and after they get the asylum they back muslims

 

[Inkhaurt]

As you were talking about arresting. You might search of following:
1. A specific law in your country that states what does happen to those who changed religion to any other or became atheists.

2. You will need a valid proof that you have changed religion. (for example if you become christian, you can get some official document stating that you were babtised).

3. Once outside SA, you need some proofs that you are persecuted for your religion (for example some kind of arresting papers stating that you are wanted and will be arrested because of suspition of being apostate).

And remember, rejection of your family and friends are not enough proof.

You can also investigate if ever you can meet criteria of normal ecnomic immigration program (in that case you would keep your beliefs for yourself a little bit longer and pass the process and once in Canada, you will just forget about your country.)

good luck

1- It is punishable by death in Saudi Arabia to leave Islam since they impose sharia law only. Well, I abandoned my old God and sought a new one. If they find out about me = Dead.

2- Deism is not an official religion so I can't get official papers to prove that I am indeed......... It's system of beliefs built on free thinking. We deists are kind of like atheists but we believe in a creator. If atheists have certificates to legitimize their religious orientation, then tell me where can I become a certified deist lol.

3- It is impossible. Authorities here will arrest me on site without papers or notices or warrants. And, I just can't file for asylum while I'm in jail awaiting for death....... It's just counter-intuitive.......... I haven't heard of a single atheist or apostate in Saudi Arabia being handed subpoena's or court summoning before they are arrested. They are simply just taken away and put into imprisonment.

 

[vensak]

1- It is punishable by death in Saudi Arabia to leave Islam since they impose sharia law only. Well, I abandoned my old God and sought a new one. If they find out about me = Dead.

2- Deism is not an official religion so I can't get official papers to prove that I am indeed......... It's system of beliefs built on free thinking. We deists are kind of like atheists but we believe in a creator. If atheists have certificates to legitimize their religious orientation, then tell me where can I become a certified deist lol.

3- It is impossible. Authorities here will arrest me on site without papers or notices or warrants. And, I just can't file for asylum while I'm in jail awaiting for death....... It's just counter-intuitive.......... I haven't heard of a single atheist or apostate in Saudi Arabia being handed subpoena's or court summoning before they are arrested. They are simply just taken away and put into imprisonment.

1. you will still need to prove that. that means to find exact citations of your law when it comes to such act.
2. again you need to prove that you have changed religion. if there is no official statement from the new, then is there some official way how to leave your previous religion. if so, did you have to perform such act. (again for example for catholics christian, we do write an official letter adressed to either pope or some higher representative requesting release from christianity).
3. what you say is true while in SA, but what happens if they find out while you are in 3rd country. (as they will most likely officialy find out). In that case they do issue some warrant or something to arrest you on the spot, should you try to return to the country again.

Think of it this way, there are many people who want to change for better country (and if better, then of course one of the top one, not just any).
One of the way and rather simple one is to claim prosecuted by religion.
Interesting is that while you have good amount of countries where freedom of religion is granted, everybody (or almost everybody) is just choosing like 5 to 10 countries.
Other funny thing is, that the moment they get asylum, recontacting their old ties, is suddenly no problem at all.

Think of it this way. You feel your belief to be strong. You feel the need to express is (of course not push it on others) and you feel that you wanted to be accepted by your society just the way you are.
That is not possible in your country and currently you do not have way to other country.
then be ready for the step that once you request asylum for the change of religion outside your country, you will officially reveal your belief in front of your old country. so there will be no going back (and warranty arrest might be issued on you).
Asylum process is something long and you need to estimate your chances (and yes, it is also possible that you fail, also since you are Saudi from birth, there is a little bit advantage there).
If you feel that to be your only option go for it. and be aware of the possible consequences.

Because of that possibility I was advicing to use one of the economy streams to get in. Did you ever checked what are your chances there?

 

[Inkhaurt]

1. you will still need to prove that. that means to find exact citations of your law when it comes to such act.
2. again you need to prove that you have changed religion. if there is no official statement from the new, then is there some official way how to leave your previous religion. if so, did you have to perform such act. (again for example for catholics christian, we do write an official letter adressed to either pope or some higher representative requesting release from christianity).
3. what you say is true while in SA, but what happens if they find out while you are in 3rd country. (as they will most likely officialy find out). In that case they do issue some warrant or something to arrest you on the spot, should you try to return to the country again.

Think of it this way, there are many people who want to change for better country (and if better, then of course one of the top one, not just any).
One of the way and rather simple one is to claim prosecuted by religion.
Interesting is that while you have good amount of countries where freedom of religion is granted, everybody (or almost everybody) is just choosing like 5 to 10 countries.
Other funny thing is, that the moment they get asylum, recontacting their old ties, is suddenly no problem at all.

Think of it this way. You feel your belief to be strong. You feel the need to express is (of course not push it on others) and you feel that you wanted to be accepted by your society just the way you are.
That is not possible in your country and currently you do not have way to other country.
then be ready for the step that once you request asylum for the change of religion outside your country, you will officially reveal your belief in front of your old country. so there will be no going back (and warranty arrest might be issued on you).
Asylum process is something long and you need to estimate your chances (and yes, it is also possible that you fail, also since you are Saudi from birth, there is a little bit advantage there).
If you feel that to be your only option go for it. and be aware of the possible consequences.

Because of that possibility I was advicing to use one of the economy streams to get in. Did you ever checked what are your chances there?

1- There is no official way here to leave the religion of Islam in Saudi Arabia. Leaving Islam here is like treason in the US. Atheism here is listed under terrorism in the governmental law and it is punishable with death by sword execution.... It is not like in Malayasia where you can denounce Islam in court and lose your rights as a Malaysian citizen but get to live. Here it is a systematical death sentence as stated in Sharia law and Hadith and Saudi Arabia follows these sources to govern internal matters. Saudi Arabia does not separate between state and religion.

2- Can you ask an atheist who is fleeing from persecution to certify his religious conversion by getting a letter from Richard Dawkins that proves he is indeed an atheist?? Of course not possible since there are no churches of atheism or Deism ...... Deism is like atheism: it is a belief and not a religion.


The reason why I'm seeking asylum in Canada first is that I lived there for 3 years as a student and I know the city of Toronto very well to live in it for the rest of my life. It is a part of me I will never forget....... I love the country. I love the way multiculturalism works there. The freedom of speech. The freedom to have an opinion without being chased to death. The freedom of religion. I love how people from different ethnicities and religions are respected and accepted. I've seen the kindness of Canadian people. Basically, Canada is a safe haven and a beacon of hope.

My first choice is Canada and if I don't find protection and peace there, then unfortunately I will seek asylum somewhere else.

 

[vensak]

1- There is no official way here to leave the religion of Islam in Saudi Arabia. Leaving Islam here is like treason in the US. Atheism here is listed under terrorism in the governmental law and it is punishable with death by sword execution.... It is not like in Malayasia where you can denounce Islam in court and lose your rights as a Malaysian citizen but get to live. Here it is a systematical death sentence as stated in Sharia law and Hadith and Saudi Arabia follows these sources to govern internal matters. Saudi Arabia does not separate between state and religion.

2- Can you ask an atheist who is fleeing from persecution to certify his religious conversion by getting a letter from Richard Dawkins that proves he is indeed an atheist?? Of course not possible since there are no churches of atheism or Deism ...... Deism is like atheism: it is a belief and not a religion.


The reason why I'm seeking asylum in Canada first is that I lived there for 3 years as a student and I know the city of Toronto very well to live in it for the rest of my life. It is a part of me I will never forget....... I love the country. I love the way multiculturalism works there. The freedom of speech. The freedom to have an opinion without being chased to death. The freedom of religion. I love how people from different ethnicities and religions are respected and accepted. I've seen the kindness of Canadian people. Basically, Canada is a safe haven and a beacon of hope.

My first choice is Canada and if I don't find protection and peace there, then unfortunately I will seek asylum somewhere else.

Understandable, but again, if you go in front of court, you need to build your case on proof.

First, and that is something that you can find, are the parts of Saudi law (governmental law, or other law that is officially accepted), regarding leaving islam. You will need citation of that law to begin with.

Second again some proof will be needed you leaving your old religion. That is why you need to check what is the official way to do that when it comes to Islam. If doing that officialy in SA, would be immediate arrest, then you can check if such thing can be officialy done in other country.
Without such proof, it is just your saying, which unfortunately does not have that much weight (since you are biased as witness).

Last, you need to be aware, that process, can be there for years, and while doing that you will have rather fragile status (work permit for refugees means that many time employer will be reluctant to hire you for the simple reason, that you might be force to leave at any time).
If you have studied there my question is again, did you check normal economy stream to immigrate. You might get just enough points to immigrate and you might be also eligible for one of the provincial PNP
Ontario will reopen its main PNP very soon, and you might get there.
That way even if it takes a year or so, you will get your PR card and then you can forget about your old country.
Seriously in your case you might get much better chance with that than with refugee claim.
Later on you could get citizenship and renounce your old SA citizenship and from then on they could not touch you because of religion. (since as a foreign citizen you do not longer belong under standard sharia law).

 

[Inkhaurt]

Understandable, but again, if you go in front of court, you need to build your case on proof.

First, and that is something that you can find, are the parts of Saudi law (governmental law, or other law that is officially accepted), regarding leaving islam. You will need citation of that law to begin with.

Second again some proof will be needed you leaving your old religion. That is why you need to check what is the official way to do that when it comes to Islam. If doing that officialy in SA, would be immediate arrest, then you can check if such thing can be officialy done in other country.
Without such proof, it is just your saying, which unfortunately does not have that much weight (since you are biased as witness).

Last, you need to be aware, that process, can be there for years, and while doing that you will have rather fragile status (work permit for refugees means that many time employer will be reluctant to hire you for the simple reason, that you might be force to leave at any time).
If you have studied there my question is again, did you check normal economy stream to immigrate. You might get just enough points to immigrate and you might be also eligible for one of the provincial PNP
Ontario will reopen its main PNP very soon, and you might get there.
That way even if it takes a year or so, you will get your PR card and then you can forget about your old country.
Seriously in your case you might get much better chance with that than with refugee claim.
Later on you could get citizenship and renounce your old SA citizenship and from then on they could not touch you because of religion. (since as a foreign citizen you do not longer belong under standard sharia law).

So far, I only have an English Diploma from an ESL school in Toronto and I don't think I could qualify for this program you are talking about.

 

[vensak]

So far, I only have an English Diploma from an ESL school in Toronto and I don't think I could qualify for this program you are talking about.

Do you have any bachelor degree from SA or other country. One of the stream is human priorities stream.

You would need following:
1. University / College diploma with at least 3 years of post secondary studies
2. English or French on CBL 7 min.
3. At least 1 year of work experience within last 5 years that is under type 0, A or B
4. At least 400 CRS points

The last condition brings usualy most applicants to have their English or French on CBL lev. 9 in order to get more points from transferability.
So check that for yourself if you would qualify.

 

[Inkhaurt]

Do you have any bachelor degree from SA or other country. One of the stream is human priorities stream.

You would need following:
1. University / College diploma with at least 3 years of post secondary studies
2. English or French on CBL 7 min.
3. At least 1 year of work experience within last 5 years that is under type 0, A or B
4. At least 400 CRS points

The last condition brings usualy most applicants to have their English or French on CBL lev. 9 in order to get more points from transferability.
So check that for yourself if you would qualify.

From the conditions you have stated, I can only tell you that I possess only an ESL diploma certificate and a one year experience in retail sales..... In other words, can't qualify for $h%t lol....... Thank you for making the time to reply to me. I really liked your detailed answers. And after I heard all of those answers I am more scared now. Sincerely thankful for the help.

 

[vensak]

From the conditions you have stated, I can only tell you that I possess only an ESL diploma certificate and a one year experience in retail sales..... In other words, can't qualify for $h%t lol....... Thank you for making the time to reply to me. I really liked your detailed answers. And after I heard all of those answers I am more scared now. Sincerely thankful for the help.

Giving up a bit too fast. Check upon other possibilities.
Some provinces, have sessions, where you can meet province and even potential employers in place and maybe secure employment offer.
Your disadvantage is in your education (I assume, that you only have secondary degree), but the advantage is good level of English language and your previous studies there (you might not get points for Canadian diploma itself, but you do get points for connections with Canada).

I would recommend you to check New Brunswick (they do have sessions where they offer positions as operator in the call center), then Nova Scotia (again, they have demand for some professions).

Your 1 year of sales and retails can be the minimum qualificaton for EE itself.
You can also think about taking further studies in Canada. This time, think more of other provinces - for example Manitoba has very nice PNP program and after just 1 year study, you can get there 1 year of PGWP and just after 6 months of work in Manitoba you can apply for their PNP.
Other way is a city Morden that can help you to get you needed ties.
I would also recommend you to follow Canadian embassy in Paris. Unlike many others, they do have good bit of online sessions. And not all of them are in French. Check and you will see.

 

[Inkhaurt]

Giving up a bit too fast. Check upon other possibilities.
Some provinces, have sessions, where you can meet province and even potential employers in place and maybe secure employment offer.
Your disadvantage is in your education (I assume, that you only have secondary degree), but the advantage is good level of English language and your previous studies there (you might not get points for Canadian diploma itself, but you do get points for connections with Canada).

I would recommend you to check New Brunswick (they do have sessions where they offer positions as operator in the call center), then Nova Scotia (again, they have demand for some professions).

Your 1 year of sales and retails can be the minimum qualificaton for EE itself.
You can also think about taking further studies in Canada. This time, think more of other provinces - for example Manitoba has very nice PNP program and after just 1 year study, you can get there 1 year of PGWP and just after 6 months of work in Manitoba you can apply for their PNP.
Other way is a city Morden that can help you to get you needed ties.
I would also recommend you to follow Canadian embassy in Paris. Unlike many others, they do have good bit of online sessions. And not all of them are in French. Check and you will see.

I will try to keep my head down for the time being to figure out things without attracting attention. Thank you very much.

 

[vensak]

I will try to keep my head down for the time being to figure out things without attracting attention. Thank you very much.

Good luck there.
At least going through all possibilities (checking the different options online), before stepping in the refugee claim is something recommended.

Also if you want to leave your country fast, you might even think about teaching English in some other country for a start (with your ESL diploma you can make TESOL very easily).
I have also seen that they seek for teachers for kindergarten in several places in Canada as well.

Just to give you more ideas.

 

[redalot]

No, but when the authorities find out, they will chop my head off. Then I won't be able to seek asylum at all. Because I will be dead 6 feet below.

How they will find it? Deism dosnt exercise prayers, you dont need to go to deism churches... its not even a religion its a belief infect.

I feel you have thinner then the hair chances of being accepted at this cause.

 

[Inkhaurt]

How they will find it? Deism dosnt exercise prayers, you dont need to go to deism churches... its not even a religion its a belief infect.

I feel you have thinner then the hair chances of being accepted at this cause.

You are right. There is no practice of prayers in Deism, but that is not my point. Designated authorities here crack down on atheists on social media and blogs, and arrest them with false charges to justify executing them under the accusation of insulting Islam or TREASONNN even though they didn't insult Islam at all. Political activists here who pursue human rights are arrested under the guise of insulting Islam and led to the slaughter. They monitor WhatsApp which is the main texting mean in Saudi Arabia. Shia muslims here who demand and equality and fight for their basic rights are considered infidels and they would find any reason to nail them to the wall with false charges..... I was a Shia Muslim and on top of that I left Islam. Now, imagine what would happen if they track my activity on the net since I am bit of a casual activist, an ex Shia Muslim, and now an apostate....... I'll leave that to your imagination.

 

[Inkhaurt]

Good luck there.
At least going through all possibilities (checking the different options online), before stepping in the refugee claim is something recommended.

Also if you want to leave your country fast, you might even think about teaching English in some other country for a start (with your ESL diploma you can make TESOL very easily).
I have also seen that they seek for teachers for kindergarten in several places in Canada as well.

Just to give you more ideas.

Take a look at this http://www.irb-cisr.gc.ca/Eng/NewsNouv/NewNou/Pages/RPD-SPR-process.aspx

I don't know if Saudi Arabia has a high acceptance rate at the IRB-RPD, but this could be a good thing. Or maybe this decision is for those 3 countries specified in the link above.

 

[Buletruck]

Don't know if that would help your situation specifically. Some figures (2014) to help make your assessment.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canada-s-refugees-by-the-numbers-the-data-1.3240640#admitted2014

All you can do at this time is find a way to Canada, either through moving to a third country and applying through UNHCR or via a TRV to Canada. If you were a student in the past, and followed the requirements (i.e. stayed off IRCC and CBSA's radar, apply for the visa. Your past history will be of benefit, if there were no issues previously.