Anyone has been tortured for 15 months or more by secondar review?
- Thread starter nicklove128
- Start date
ttrajan said:They may not be knowing you are outside Canada, since they don,t have immigration while leaving Canada?
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I think I'm in bigger trouble than I realized. If I apply for PRTD, they will count the days backwards from the day of the PRTD application? I left Canada in Jan 2013 after I met the RO, if they do the counting from that way, I have less than 730 days. Does this mean that I won't be approved for PRTD?dpenabill said:
My timeline is like this:
1. arrived in Canada as PR in 2009
2. left Canada in Jan 2013 after meeting the RO
3. Went back to Canada to apply for PR renewal in Feb 2014(right before the PR card expired)
4. left Canada in March 2014
5. PR renewal tranferred to secondary review in April 2014
Now it's been 15 months and still no news. If counting 5 years backwards from TODAY, I don't have 730 days. The reason is that I've been studying in a university abroad. What should I do now? Could you please advice? Thank you so much!
Your apprehensions are well-founded. You are, obviously, in breach of the PR Residency Obligation.nicklove128 said:
To be clear, you are NOT in any trouble. It is not as if you have violated any laws.
But you are at high risk for losing PR status. If you define that to be "trouble," well yes, it is indeed most likely you are going to lose PR status.
Depending on your age and the circumstances for leaving Canada, and all the other circumstances in your situation, you may want to research the prospect of making an H&C case for retaining PR status. Those are difficult, but it depends on all the circumstances in your situation.
Otherwise, while there may be some chance of getting back into Canada, the odds probably are not good. The odds are high you are flagged and will be examined upon arrival at a PoE, reported for being in breach of the PR RO, issued a Departure Order, and lose PR status. You can appeal that, be allowed to enter Canada, and stay in Canada as a PR while the appeal is pending, but unless you have a strong H&C case the ultimate outcome is easy to forecast. Not favourable.
However, if somehow you were able to travel to Canada and were allowed to enter without being reported, you could stay two years and that would cure the PR RO. But you would have to get by without a PR card in the meantime. After two years you could then apply for and obtain a new PR card. At this stage, my guess is that successfully navigating this course is a long shot at best.
Even if you were mailed a PR card now, and that was sent to the address of a family member or friend who could forward it to you abroad, the odds are still quite high you would be tagged for additional examination upon arrival at a PoE in Canada, and being in breach of the PR RO still subject to being reported and issued a Departure Order. A valid PR card would not protect you from that. But again, the odds of being mailed a PR card at this stage are very poor, or worse.
As noted before, if you apply for a PR Travel Document, you would need to account for dates outside Canada within the five years preceding the date of the application. Since you are in breach of the PR RO (absent from Canada more than 1095 days within the preceding five years), the PR TD will be denied unless you make a compelling and persuasive case for retaining PR status based on H&C grounds.
Any way you approach this, your capacity to retain or otherwise have PR status is most likely dependent on either a H&C case or on re-applying after formal loss of PR status.
But of course all the facts and circumstances of your situation matter, and I cannot know those, so you should not rely on my assessment alone.
Thank you so much again for your answers. I don't think I meet the H&C grounds since I left Canada to study abroad.dpenabill said:
I thought they calculate the RO every 5 years and that why I didn't even realize that I failed to meet it. I thought it's calculated since the day my last PR status expired.
So now I have to wait and hope miracles happen? Doing nothing is my best move here right? Thank u so much for ur time and help.
dpenabill said:
Hi, does the PNP nominated PR movement to another province will result in the second review and rejection. Please advice
I found I mistyped my date of application. I applied the PR renewal in 2015, not 2014dpenabill said:
My timeline is like this:
1. arrived in Canada as PR in 2009
2. left Canada in Jan 2013 after meeting the RO
3. Went back to Canada to apply for PR renewal in Feb 2015(right before the PR card expired)
4. left Canada in March 2015
5. PR renewal tranferred to secondary review in April 2015
Do you think I should wait and see what their decision will be? Thank you so much in advance.
As I have tried to emphasize, I cannot offer advice. And, moreover, in your situation I cannot even suggest what you should do.nicklove128 said:
You are obviously in breach of the PR Residency Obligation. Not by a little but by a lot. It appears IRCC recognizes you are abroad and have been abroad.
Your options are limited. Whether you can have Permanent Resident status in Canada in the future is probably dependent on either:
-- making a persuasive case you deserve to retain PR status based on H&C reasons (and this appears to be a very difficult to make case given the overtly personal choices underlying the extent of your absences . . . but each case is dependent on many factors and it would be imprudent of me to offer a definitive judgment)
-- or, re-applying for PR status after you lose PR status or surrender it
I can and have offered a number of observations. For example, the sooner you return to Canada the better. But that is a generalization and its impact in a particular case is dependent on a huge, huge range of other factors. At this stage, for example, when you return might be of little effect, but again it would be imprudent of me to offer a definitive judgment about this.
It is apparent that you want a simple answer for a difficult and complex situation. I do not have a simple answer. My guess is that the most applicable simple answer is to plan to give up PR status and then, if you want to come to Canada to live and work, apply again. But for now you are still a PR, and unless and until you have been adjudicated otherwise, or you have formally surrendered your PR status, you continue to be a PR. So you are, at the least, eligible to make the case that you deserve to be allowed to retain your PR status.
Thank you so much for your patience and detailed answers. As currently I'm still studying abroad, and I can't just quit school like that, I guess I will have to wait and see what their decision will be. If it doesn't work out I guess I will have to reapply. Thank you!dpenabill said:
I applied for my PR card renewal in middle of January this year. Application was returned because of little 'contrast' issue with the photos. I resubmitted application in March. I got email from IRCC that acknowledged receipt on March 29. I completed 5 year period after becoming PR on April 13. Upto that time I had lived in Canada for close to 3 years (1095 days). In fact i returned from vacation on May 25. My old PR card expired on June 9. The very fact that i allowed re-entry in to Canada with PR card expiring just after 2 weeks shows that CBSA have it in the records that there is no problem regarding RO in my case.
I plan to travel to out of Canada for 18 days in first week of July. I requested urgent processing of my PR card renewal application from IRCC about a week ago. Yesterday i got email from them that my application has been referred for secondary review after completion of primary one. It further advised me to proceed on foreign travel and apply for PRTD in Candian visa office abroad.
Under the circumstances there is no way i am going to get new PR card before my travel date and getting PRTD abroad in 18 days is also almost impossible - especially when my PR card apply is under secondary review.
Situation is exasperating to say the least. I am nowhere close to minimum 730 days minimum RO period. Though they don't put stamps on the passport at the time of entry or exit, CBSA has full information on everyone's presence in Canada on their system. That's how they stop PRs who are not in a position to meet minimum RO obligations from re-entering Canada.
I once again emailed to IRCC about my situation, last night. But my fear is that they send generic replies to all queries and don't look at merits of a particular case. I would value any suggestions or guidance that could help me. Thanks.
I plan to travel to out of Canada for 18 days in first week of July. I requested urgent processing of my PR card renewal application from IRCC about a week ago. Yesterday i got email from them that my application has been referred for secondary review after completion of primary one. It further advised me to proceed on foreign travel and apply for PRTD in Candian visa office abroad.
Under the circumstances there is no way i am going to get new PR card before my travel date and getting PRTD abroad in 18 days is also almost impossible - especially when my PR card apply is under secondary review.
Situation is exasperating to say the least. I am nowhere close to minimum 730 days minimum RO period. Though they don't put stamps on the passport at the time of entry or exit, CBSA has full information on everyone's presence in Canada on their system. That's how they stop PRs who are not in a position to meet minimum RO obligations from re-entering Canada.
I once again emailed to IRCC about my situation, last night. But my fear is that they send generic replies to all queries and don't look at merits of a particular case. I would value any suggestions or guidance that could help me. Thanks.
Actually the Liberals just tabled new legislation three days ago, I think it is Bill C-21, which will facilitate the government in collecting more information including, specifically, information documenting exits from Canada. This Bill is a long way from being adopted (maybe late fall it will happen). In the meantime, no, neither CBSA nor IRCC necessarily have complete information as to individual's presence in Canada. They have a lot, more and more over time, and they will have a lot more if this legislation is adopted and becomes law (recent media reports tend to attribute this to a deal between Trudeau and Obama, but actually it is the next step in implementing an agreement made between Obama and Harper a couple years ago . . . part of what it will do is give Canadian authorities information about arrivals in the U.S. from Canada, thus in effect constituting information about those individuals exiting Canada . . . the other thing it will do is allow the government to collect information from Commercial carriers regarding name, Travel Document and its number, for all passengers exiting Canada).Thommo said:
Moreover, even after this legislation is adopted and implemented, this only further increases the extent to which CBSA and IRCC will have access to databases showing exit and entry information for individuals. Since there are numerous ways for individuals to skirt the record-capturing done now (both deliberately and incidentally), or under the new law which will be done, the government will use this information to verify an individual's information, to the extent the data does verify the applicant's declared information, but will not rely on it as the primary source of travel date information. The burden of proof will continue to be on the PR to prove dates of travel.
Of course the government is likely to also use the information for investigatory purposes, to identify people going abroad too long to be eligible for unemployment insurance payments or other benefits, or indeed for purposes of checking PR RO compliance.
By the way, Canada cannot stop PRs from re-entering Canada. This cannot happen:
"That's how they stop PRs who are not in a position to meet minimum RO obligations from re-entering Canada."
This is also NOT correct: "The very fact that i allowed re-entry in to Canada with PR card expiring just after 2 weeks shows that CBSA have it in the records that there is no problem regarding RO in my case." Does not mean that at all. It just means that the officer screening you at the PoE did not identify a reason to question you further. Residency Obligation questioning of PRs happens at a PoE but not usually, not for most PRs most of the time.
At the PoE, all the border officials can do, if a PR is in breach of the PR RO, is issue an inadmissibility report and Departure Order, but must then allow the PR to enter Canada, and the PR has thirty days to file an appeal. If the PR files the appeal, the Departure Order remains unenforceable unless and until the appeal is lost.
In any event, you may want to reconsider your travel plans, at the least to accommodate the need to obtain a PR TD for the return to Canada. If you have the ability to travel via the U.S., you could elect to travel via the U.S. and then go to the border in a private vehicle. Not enough time to seek mandamus and the likelihood of making a mandamus case is not at all good anyway.
The risk, of course, is that if a foreign visa office denies the PR Travel Document application, that will terminate your PR status unless you appeal that and win that appeal.
Some tough decisions to make.
Thanks a lot dpenabill and ttrajan for your replies.
Though it is painful, It seems, i don't have any choice but to cancel my travel plans.
Though it is painful, It seems, i don't have any choice but to cancel my travel plans.