any reports regarding the new rules - eta

[Tri-Cities]

Good morning

So, my friend Kat booked a flight (+ return ticket) to come back to Canada. She is PR, meets the RO's, applied for a new PR card before leaving Canada for a short visit to Europe.

She didn't get the new PR card yet, and because she didn't want to stay any longer in Europe she booked a flight for Monday May 30/2016.

She did not apply for a TD, she felt it might take too long. I told her to cross US - Canada border. She didn't like the idea either.

Now she sent me a message and asked me if there have been any reports of any PR's, pretending to be visitors and were not allowed to board the plane. She was looking up the information on the website of the airline she booked the flight with, but says, all it says is what can be found on the CIC website.

So she asked me if I can ask you guys if there have any reports so far?

Thanks guys. I think now being so close to "trying" she gets nervous.

TC

TC

 

[dpenabill]

Good morning

So, my friend Kat booked a flight (+ return ticket) to come back to Canada. She is PR, meets the RO's, applied for a new PR card before leaving Canada for a short visit to Europe.

She didn't get the new PR card yet, and because she didn't want to stay any longer in Europe she booked a flight for Monday May 30/2016.

She did not apply for a TD, she felt it might take too long. I told her to cross US - Canada border. She didn't like the idea either.

Now she sent me a message and asked me if there have been any reports of any PR's, pretending to be visitors and were not allowed to board the plane. She was looking up the information on the website of the airline she booked the flight with, but says, all it says is what can be found on the CIC website.

So she asked me if I can ask you guys if there have any reports so far?

Thanks guys. I think now being so close to "trying" she gets nervous.

TC

TC

Short answer:

It appears that at least some visa-exempt PRs are still being allowed to board flights to Canada without presenting either a PR card or PR TD. Who, how, or why is NOT clear, despite some claims here otherwise. There is NO guarantee, none at all, that a visa-exempt PR will be allowed to board a flight to Canada without presenting either a PR card or PR TD.

The rule itself is straight-forward: regardless of passport in possession, PRs need to present either a PR card or PR TD to board a flight to Canada.

Whether to attempt traveling without a valid PR card or PR TD is a personal judgment call, the prudence of which varies depending on the particular individual's personal circumstances.

Generally, just common sense, advice that one can rely on rules not being enforced is inherently suspect.



Longer explanation:

There are a few anecdotal reports by PRs carrying visa-exempt passports who, since the regulation requiring eTA came into force on March 15 (actual application subject to a leniency period until September 29), have been able to use only their visa-exempt passport to board a flight headed to Canada. Of the three individuals I have seen report this in this forum, one was an American returning to Canada on a flight from the U.S. One of the other two reported having traveled two times to Canada, using visa-exempt passport only, since March 15.

Additionally, in the citizenship conference here there is also a recent report by a PR issued a Departure Order (breach of PR RO) at the PoE, upon arrival, who reports initially presenting only a visa-exempt passport upon arrival. While this report does not explicitly state the individual presented only a visa-exempt passport to board the flight, it seems likely this is one more anecdotal report indicating that at least some are being allowed to fly with just the visa-exempt passport.

Three, four, or fifteen anonymous, anecdotal reports of successfully flying to Canada without a PR card, does not offer much, let alone a lot of assurance, that the PR rule is generally not yet being enforced for those carrying a visa-exempt passport. Some actually insist to the contrary, relying (it appears) on the absence of explicit reports by PRs denied boarding in conjunction with an outdated understanding of how pre-boarding screening is done.

I cannot say I know more or better. I don't. I am quite sure that those who suggest relying on a visa-exempt passport do not know either, at least not much more so, if at all.

What I do know is that there were reports of being denied boarding even before March 15. These instances are dismissed by those who suggest that PRs can rely (or at least mostly rely, which really is not much assurance either) on using a visa-exempt passport so long as they appear to be traveling as visitors, apparently because these were instances in which the traveler's PR status was somehow apparent to the airline doing the screening.

What I also know is that the screening process has dramatically changed, that pre-boarding approval to fly is NOT merely a matter of airline personnel examining the traveler's Travel Document, but rather that now all passengers are screened via the IAPI system, by CBSA's automated advance passenger information screening system (which will, at least almost always, recognize the traveler as a PR, based on the traveler's identity).

An important element of this process I do not know is how the IAPI system responds when the passenger's passport is visa-exempt and the passenger is also a Canadian PR.

It is possible, for example, that even though the information publicized by IRCC indicates that the PR rule is in force and that visa-exempt travelers may face "delays" or be "denied boarding" if they do not present either a PR card or PR TD, that in practice the airlines are generally instructed to allow visa-exempt passengers to fly during the leniency period. That is, even if the visa-exempt passenger is a Canadian PR . . . or a Canadian citizen. I mention Canadian citizens because the IRCC information does explicitly state that the rule for Canadian citizens will not be enforced against those with visa-exempt passports (that is, dual citizens) during the leniency period. What I am suggesting is the possibility that the same approach for dual citizens is also the approach currently for Canadian PRs.

But the latter is a guess. A mere possibility.

The reality is there is a wide range of variable factors which can have an impact on how it goes when boarding a flight to Canada. Which airlines. What country the flight originates in. Potential for additional screening at any given airport on any given occasion (such as recently reported by a Canadian citizen boarding a flight in Munich, who was required to show additional identification in addition to a Canadian passport). And a wide range of personal factors. Indeed, some of us tend to draw more scrutiny than others, whether due to our physical appearance or our dress, or whatever. That is, as almost always, how it goes varies, it depends.

It is my distinct impression that even before eTA, most PRs with a visa-exempt passport nonetheless made a concerted effort to carry a valid PR card when traveling abroad, and that since March this is even more so. For example, in this forum there are more reports by PRs abroad who have elected to obtain a PR TD before attempting to fly back to Canada, rather than attempt to board a flight with only a visa-exempt passport, than the number reporting flying using the visa-exempt passport only. Obviously, the number of anecdotal reports for the last three months is minuscule compared to the number of PRs actually flying to Canada on any given day.

 

[Rob_TO]

Good morning

So, my friend Kat booked a flight (+ return ticket) to come back to Canada. She is PR, meets the RO's, applied for a new PR card before leaving Canada for a short visit to Europe.

She didn't get the new PR card yet, and because she didn't want to stay any longer in Europe she booked a flight for Monday May 30/2016.

She did not apply for a TD, she felt it might take too long. I told her to cross US - Canada border. She didn't like the idea either.

Now she sent me a message and asked me if there have been any reports of any PR's, pretending to be visitors and were not allowed to board the plane. She was looking up the information on the website of the airline she booked the flight with, but says, all it says is what can be found on the CIC website.

So she asked me if I can ask you guys if there have any reports so far?

Thanks guys. I think now being so close to "trying" she gets nervous.

TC

TC

Since the first March eTA date passed, I've seen around 5 anecdotal reports of PRs with visa-exempt passports traveling to Canada using only their passport. In each case the airline was unaware they were a PR, and allowed them boarding based on screening as a foreign national.

So far there have been no reports of PRs being denied boarding when using just a visa-exempt passport, or the airline even being aware they are a PR.

Take the anecdotal reports for what they're worth. No guarantee the process won't change or become more strict on any given day. My personal opinion is that until Sept 29, visa-exempt PRs should still be able to travel to Canada this way, but of course this is just an opinion.

 

[canuck_in_uk]

My partner and I returned about 2 weeks ago from the Dominican via the US. The only question they asked my Britiah partner when checking in to return to Canada was "Green card or visa?" for the US. The airlines cannot see PR status. As I said in another thread, I asked several airlines employees about this and they all confirmed they cannot see status.

The airlines also confirmed that they do not require the eTA right now; a visa-exempt passport is sufficient.

 

[Tri-Cities]

Thanks everyone!

Kat says:
She is getting nervous because the CIC (IRCC) website says until September 29/2016 visitors who do not have an "eta filed" can use their passport to board their flight to Canada.

But, she says, she's starting to worry that the airline won't accept her / let her board even though "Canada" is okay with only her passport.

I don't know waht to tell her anymore.... I'm so done here...but then again, she is my friend and I feel kinda sorry.

Lesson: do not leave w/o PR card or PR TD

(new text: she wonders if they swipe the PR card at the airport... I didn't know because they only asked me while checking in if I have my PR card on me for CBSA - but that happened in 2012. I think now they're going to have a closer look at the card.)

 

[Tri-Cities]

Just in case:

If she decides to book another flight, via the US does she need a return ticket (airline wise)? She thinks about (finally) crossing the US - Canada border by car, coming from Germany. Applying for ESTA won't be an issue.

 

[Bs65]

Look she is flying tomorrow May 30 th she has a return ticket, she has a visa exempt passport I doubt will be any issues at all although post sept 29 would be a different story.

If she had a one way ticket back from europe then that could be a flag to an airline to ask more questions but changing plans at this late stage probably not worth the hassle and if airline have issues then fall back to plan B She may get asked questions by CBSA but as PR she would be allowed in anyway PR card or no PR card, might get some CBSA hassle about not having but thats likely all.

This is a personal view by the way but is so easy for people to read too much into what if scenarios and anyway given has met RO previously is in a stronger position than someone who has not met RO.

Note that airlines are very lazy in updating their websites in that they continue to say ETA is required and no mention of the leniency period so airlines as guilty as anyone of creating panic.

 

[Tri-Cities]

Hi Bs65,

thanks!

Well, she texted me that her airline (Condor) got information about the eTA already. So they certainly know about thoses changes.

Do you think she would need a return ticket if she has to go by plan B ----> flying to the US and cross border to Canada? I used the US last November and I had a return ticket to avoid issues with the airline.

Thanks again, TC

 

[Rob_TO]

(new text: she wonders if they swipe the PR card at the airport... I didn't know because they only asked me while checking in if I have my PR card on me for CBSA - but that happened in 2012. I think now they're going to have a closer look at the card.)

How can she swipe a PR card if she doesn't have one?

Can't stress this enough, that the whole premise around a PR traveling as a visa-exempt foreign national, is to hide the fact you're a PR from the airline. So she should definitely NOT present an expired PR card, documents saying PR card is in renewal, COPR, etc nor indicate to the airline verbally she's a PR. For the sake of this trip, she is a foreign national who is visiting Canada under a visa-exempt passport only.

Obviously there is some level of deception required here, people who aren't comfortable with this or any risk should not attempt it and get a proper travel document instead.

 

[Tri-Cities]

I know. I've been talking to her about other options for a while....

Loool because of the "swiping a PR card" ... don't get me there....but for a moment she thought about showing her expired card. I basically yelled at her (via whatsapp) for even think about that. But then she said maybe they swipe the expired card or they wanna have a closer look.

She is my friend (and Kat I'm sorry!!) but there is a saying...you can't fix st...

Thanks to everyone - I know she appreciates every single word and I'd guess that she learned her lesson.

TC

 

[dpenabill]

What is required for boarding a flight to Canada really is not a complicated issue. The rule is simple and straight-forward. The overwhelming majority of PRs follow the rule when traveling abroad, and have been doing so for a decade or so.

Moreover, as of now there is barely a little more than a hundred days before it will almost certainly become far more difficult for a PR to board a flight to Canada without a valid PR card or PR Travel Document.

How to get away with not following the rules has been largely a big and unnecessary distraction, and to a significant extent is based on the continuing misunderstanding of the screening process.



For those looking for ways to avoid following the rule:

Yes, for those looking for ways to avoid following the rule, it is more complicated. It almost always is. Suggestions to the contrary are untrustworthy.

How complicated will vary from person to person, situation to situation, and potentially depend on the particular airline, country the flight originates in, or other circumstances. The fact it has been relatively simple for some is no assurance how it will go for anyone else.

Those who persist in advocating how easy it is to not follow the rules are overlooking the vagaries of real life for different people in different situations. It might be no big deal for some. It can be a big deal for others. Not only do the risks vary, but more significantly the nature and severity of the potential consequences can be very different for some individuals.

In contrast, except for those trapped in a situation with limited options (who may have a hundred or so day window in which they might still travel back to Canada without a PR card), the best approach is the relatively risk-free approach, and that is to follow the rules, as it usually is (despite the fashion otherwise among some). That is what works. At least that is what works best the most often.

And again, advice advocating not-following-the-rules is inherently suspect. That is plain, common-sense.



Note regarding example of potential variables:

For example, take this individual in Germany without a PR card, and apparently not in a position to obtain a PR Travel Document. This individual can purchase a ticket to Canada, even a round-trip ticket, and go to the airport and attempt to board the flight to Canada using just a visa-exempt passport. The worst case scenario is not being allowed to board the flight. That will not affect this individual's PR status. It will not preclude other ways to travel to Canada. It appears that all this individual would be risking is having plans to travel back to Canada disrupted and suffering whatever additional financial costs that might be incurred in the process.

This is but one rub: some tickets are non-refundable. Some travelers can ill-afford more expensive tickets, and sometimes the refundable tickets can be more expensive. Many travelers could hardly afford to lose the cost of a non-refundable ticket. I cannot guess what the financial risks are for this individual. I just know that they can vary, and that for sure some individuals have more leeway financially than others. For some, just the travel alone can test the limits of their finances. And that is without figuring potential costs resulting from the trip being delayed.

But this individual is already abroad. So options are limited.

In contrast, a PR currently in Canada who has upcoming travel plans can evaluate whether, for him or her in particular, it would be better to postpone or cancel a trip rather than go abroad without a PR card. I personally know individuals who have indeed cancelled travel plans because they did not get a PR card in time, and that was before the eTA rules. But a big factor for them was avoiding the risk of incurring any additional costs, being on a fairly limited budget. (I do not associate much with the affluent these days, not nearly so much as, one might say, in-another-lifetime; and for what it is worth, I prefer my not-so-affluent Canadian friends to those who were affluent, mostly clients and colleagues back when.)

In any event, again, common sense says to mistrust generic assurances that it will be fine to not follow the rules. How things go really can vary considerably from person to person, and just the failure to acknowledge this evidences a lack of judiciousness.

 

[fkl]

Thanks every one for their input. It's very valuable.

A quick question under the same premise with a bit of twist.

A person was on a work permit with matching valid TRV sticker - valid for another 3 years.

Then that person became PR. Upon landing, his Non immigrant TRV sticker was crossed during landing. But the worker TRV wasn't touched.

Can he enter Canada using that worker based TRV?

I am only asking about what is legally permitted.

Thanks

 

[dpenabill]

Thanks every one for their input. It's very valuable.

A quick question under the same premise with a bit of twist.

A person was on a work permit with matching valid TRV sticker - valid for another 3 years.

Then that person became PR. Upon landing, his Non immigrant TRV sticker was crossed during landing. But the worker TRV wasn't touched.

Can he enter Canada using that worker based TRV?

I am only asking about what is legally permitted.

Thanks

A PR should have no problems entering Canada based on proof of identity, plus anything which identifies the PR as a PR. The passport used when landing actually should suffice, although without a copy of the CoPR or such the border officials may conduct a bit more of an examination for the purpose of verifying identity.

Remember: PRs are entitled to enter Canada. They do not need to present any particular documents, but rather only need to establish their identity and status, and usually establishing identity will suffice to establish status (albeit, again, a more thorough examination may be conducted if the PR only presents his or her passport).

If what you are really inquiring about is what is necessary to board a commercial flight coming to Canada, the rule is a PR needs to present a valid PR card or a PR Travel Document. If the PR is carrying a visa-exempt passport, recent reports indicate a good chance of being allowed to board the flight with that alone, but only for the next 120 days, and there is no guarantee of this (assurances to the contrary by others aside).

Since clearance to board a flight is no longer based merely on the airline's visual inspection of Travel Documents, but rather is dependent on CBSA clearance (via the IAPI system), I cannot say I am confident how the system will respond . . . but it is not likely the appearance of the TRV in the passport (as in whether noted as cancelled or not) is what will make the difference, since again the primary clearance will be based on what the airline gets back from the IAPI system after putting in the traveler's name and passport number.

 

[axelfoley]

I have a PR card that expired 5 years ago and have a visa-exempt foreign passport. Got into Canada into a major city with a flight out of London (UK) with a non-Canadian airline. Flight was very busy and indeed over-booked. I had deliberately not provided my advance passenger information until 24 hours before the flight to give less time for any scrutiny.

Nobody from the airline either at check-in or at the gate asked me even once about eTA. Nobody asked a relative I was travelling with who is a non-PR either. Nobody at security at the gate asked about eTA or PR. All they did at gate was check the passport was real and compared to the boarding pass. I listened out carefully for any questions about eTA, or to see a copy or print out of eTA, to other people in the gate queue/line but nobody was asked from the people around me. The gate security guy from G4S (I think) did not even flick through the passport pages to check to see if there was an Canadian immigrant visa in there. Nobody asked to go through my hand luggage to check to see if there were documents that would evidence that I was a PR. In fact my hand luggage was literally packed with such documents that would have shown I was a PR. I had the expired PR card with me in the same pack as my passport. There was no extra x-ray or bag security at the gate to Canada. Nobody asked me if I was a PR.

When I arrived in Canada, I volunteered and showed my expired PR card and CBSA officer simply said, you know you shouldn't travel with an expired PR card, smiled and asked me to go see immigration. Happy to be back in Canada. Hopefully this helps some people in the same situation as me. Anybody considering doing the same as me should act sooner rather than wait until close to the deadline at the end of September...

 

[fkl]

A PR should have no problems entering Canada based on proof of identity, plus anything which identifies the PR as a PR. The passport used when landing actually should suffice, although without a copy of the CoPR or such the border officials may conduct a bit more of an examination for the purpose of verifying identity.

Remember: PRs are entitled to enter Canada. They do not need to present any particular documents, but rather only need to establish their identity and status, and usually establishing identity will suffice to establish status (albeit, again, a more thorough examination may be conducted if the PR only presents his or her passport).

If what you are really inquiring about is what is necessary to board a commercial flight coming to Canada, the rule is a PR needs to present a valid PR card or a PR Travel Document. If the PR is carrying a visa-exempt passport, recent reports indicate a good chance of being allowed to board the flight with that alone, but only for the next 120 days, and there is no guarantee of this (assurances to the contrary by others aside).

Since clearance to board a flight is no longer based merely on the airline's visual inspection of Travel Documents, but rather is dependent on CBSA clearance (via the IAPI system), I cannot say I am confident how the system will respond . . . but it is not likely the appearance of the TRV in the passport (as in whether noted as cancelled or not) is what will make the difference, since again the primary clearance will be based on what the airline gets back from the IAPI system after putting in the traveler's name and passport number.

Thanks - that is interesting. So basically that means boarding a flight without a PR card won't be possible and at the very least subjective. Because one being not visa exempt (hence had a TRV stamped on passport as a worker in the past) and IAPI system returning the status of person being a PR hence requiring proof of status.