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Any new PRs flown to Canada with ETA but no PR card?

andrews65

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Hi,

Have any new PRs with a pre-existing Electronic Travel Authorization successfully flown to Canada before receiving their PR card?
 

Rob_TO

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andrews65 said:
Hi,

Have any new PRs with a pre-existing Electronic Travel Authorization successfully flown to Canada before receiving their PR card?
People have recently successfully flown on travel visas that were issued before becoming PR.

However I've never heard of someone trying on eTA. I'm curious too what would happen.
 

neorol

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Jul 31, 2016
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Rob_TO said:
People have recently successfully flown on travel visas that were issued before becoming PR.

However I've never heard of someone trying on eTA. I'm curious too what would happen.
I'm also in this situation. I need to go back for two weeks to my country soon and I'm hesitating to do the landing process because of the uncertain and unpredictable PRTD process... I have ETA, but I don't dare to take the risk. Unless someone has experience on this? Do they surely cancel existing ETAs?
 

Smearingo

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May 17, 2016
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I wonder if the pre-PR eTA should be invalidated at the moment of landing?
I had it with my previous permit, but I of course surrendered my permit during landing.

The border agent actually confused me by saying that as I am from visa-exempt country, my passport alone should be sufficient for me to return to Canada during the time I have not received the PR card. (I believe he meant only at land border, but he himself was not sure too and advised me to check with the CIC....)
 

andrews65

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Jan 23, 2016
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I've seen nothing which says that a person's eTA is cancelled when a person lands as a PR. I landed 6 days ago and today my eTA shows as valid on the CIC system. Of course this does not guarantee that the airline check in system will allow me to board on April 5th.

Anyone have any knowledge of Canada's IAPI system and the information it sends to airline check in systems?
 

Rob_TO

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andrews65 said:
I've seen nothing which says that a person's eTA is cancelled when a person lands as a PR. I landed 6 days ago and today my eTA shows as valid on the CIC system. Of course this does not guarantee that the airline check in system will allow me to board on April 5th.

Anyone have any knowledge of Canada's IAPI system and the information it sends to airline check in systems?
http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/btb-pdf/iapi-ipvi-eng.html
The IAPI process begins when commercial air carriers electronically transmit passenger information to the CBSA for international flights destined for Canada. The CBSA queries this information against Canada's immigration data to confirm that the traveller has the prescribed travel document (for example, visa or eTA) if one is required. The IAPI system also sends a "board/no-board" message to commercial air carriers before the individual boards a flight to Canada.

So if the IAPI system was working as stated, it would send a message to the airline upon check-in that the traveler is a PR, and hence would require valid PR card or PR TD instead of eTA to be allowed boarding. So in this case, even having a valid eTA would be meaningless.

HOWEVER, in reality what is actually happening may differ from how it's explained or supposed to work. According to above, people on TRVs should never have been able to board with visas obtained before getting PR, yet it has happened several times within the past few months. So the only way to know for sure how IAPI treats eTAs and PRs, is to read an anecdotal story or try it yourself. Just be prepared for a worst case scenario that you're denied boarding.

If IAPI does not flag PRs and let's them continue to travel on eTA, this would be a big loophole that could allow one to travel with no PR card for up to 5 years validity of eTA after getting PR.
 

methyl

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Rob_TO said:
So if the IAPI system was working as stated, it would send a message to the airline upon check-in that the traveler is a PR, and hence would require valid PR card or PR TD instead of eTA to be allowed boarding. So in this case, even having a valid eTA would be meaningless.
It seems you are misinterpreting the process. It states clearly that the system sends "board/no-board" message, not a message like "person is a PR - request and verify PR card". The system verifies whether the holder of the passport is admissible or not, based on status of the person in CIC records.

So for a PR it seems that it would return "board" every time, as is the right of every PR.
 

Rob_TO

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methyl said:
It seems you are misinterpreting the process. It states clearly that the system sends "board/no-board" message, not a message like "person is a PR - request and verify PR card". The system verifies whether the holder of the passport is admissible or not, based on status of the person in CIC records.

So for a PR it seems that it would return "board" every time, as is the right of every PR.
From above:
The CBSA queries this information against Canada's immigration data to confirm that the traveller has the prescribed travel document (for example, visa or eTA) if one is required.

PR card or PR TD is a travel document. If IAPI system can simply identify if a given traveler is a PR, it may flag the airline to check for valid PR card or PR TD.

I'm not saying it does, just that it's possible. To date I've seen no stories one way or the other. Again the only way to know for sure is to try.
 

andrews65

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More information here http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publications/dm-md/d2/d2-5-11-eng.html?pedisable=true

I'm guessing that a PR might be given a "do not board" if they have no PR card or PRTD, since the data sent to IAPI at checkin will contain the swiped passport but no swiped PR card. IAPI will know that PR card is missing from the incoming data, and will know from its back end systems that the traveller is a PR and also that no PRTD has been issued.

I'm assuming that PR card holders have their card as well as their passport swiped when checking in for a flight to Canada?
 

Rob_TO

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andrews65 said:
More information here http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publications/dm-md/d2/d2-5-11-eng.html?pedisable=true

I'm guessing that a PR might be given a "do not board" if they have no PR card or PRTD, since the data sent to IAPI at checkin will contain the swiped passport but no swiped PR card. IAPI will know that PR card is missing from the incoming data, and will know from its back end systems that the traveller is a PR and also that no PRTD has been issued.

I'm assuming that PR card holders have their card as well as their passport swiped when checking in for a flight to Canada?
Except there have been a few recent cases reported here of PRs traveling with no PR card and instead using a travel visa (TRV) obtained prior to getting PR status. In each case, there was no difficulty at check-in and no mention of PR status.

So despite what the rules state or what may potentially happen... what actually will happen is anyone's guess. Remember the whole IAPI system may be evolving as well so what has happened in the past might not necessarily hold true for future travels.
 

PMM

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Hi


Rob_TO said:
Except there have been a few recent cases reported here of PRs traveling with no PR card and instead using a travel visa (TRV) obtained prior to getting PR status. In each case, there was no difficulty at check-in and no mention of PR status.

So despite what the rules state or what may potentially happen... what actually will happen is anyone's guess. Remember the whole IAPI system may be evolving as well so what has happened in the past might not necessarily hold true for future travels.
1. That is a CBSA screw up, as the officer is supposed to cancel the TRV when the person lands
 

dpenabill

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For a PR who obtained eTA prior to becoming a PR, as I have discussed elsewhere, my guess is that the eTA is NOT cancelled, at least not automatically. See:
http://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/waiting-for-pr-travelling-into-canada-t474477.0.html

There is a great deal of information available about IAPI, API, PNR, and eTA, and so far I have seen nothing in any of that, including no regulations, PDIs, or guidelines, for cancelling eTA if the person with eTA becomes a Permanent Resident.

This includes the valuable, informative CBSA Memorandum which andrews65 links above. The memo warrants linking again:
http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publications/dm-md/d2/d2-5-11-eng.html?pedisable=true

There is obviously some interaction between the IAPI system and GCMS and FOSS, in particular in the process of processing an application for eTA. Thus, when a PR applies for eTA using a visa-exempt passport, eTA is denied based on identifying the applicant as a PR, not a FN (Foreign National). This happens automatically, electronically, which means the IAPI system is programmed to query GCMS, and probably FOSS as well, employing criteria which will identify inadmissibility, PR status, among other things which would indicate the applicant is not eligible for eTA.

But once eTA has been granted, except for the "periodic revalidation" process, or a manual revalidation (such as triggered during a PoE examination), the question is whether a routine boarding clearance query from an airline involves the IAPI system automatically making an electronic query regarding the traveler in GCMS or FOSS., and even if yes, it does, whether that is for alerts (indicating adverse information) only or a broader query. The latter seems unlikely to me. But that is, again, just my guess. That is, my guess is that the IAPI system is probably programmed to run a query in other databases, such as GCMS and FOSS, but only for adverse information alerts (or queries another database with adverse information derived from GCMS, FOSS, and such, maintained precisely to facilitate fast electronic queries to identify clients with adverse information alerts), not the same query the IAPI system runs in processing the application for eTA itself.

Note that this is distinguishable from how a change in status occurs, such as when a person who has a TRV becomes a PR, which should involve an update in the GCMS records for that individual client cancelling the TRV and recording confirmation of Permanent Residence. As PMM observes, when a new PR goes through the process of landing the officer processing the landing should be making entries into the system which cancels the TRV at the same time the client is granted PR status, and physically cancelling the TRV in that individual's passport.



Best to travel with PR card or be prepared to obtain PR TD:

Notwithstanding my guess, that the eTA is not cancelled (at least not automatically) the prudent, safe approach for any PR traveling abroad, including a new PR, is to travel with a valid PR card or be prepared to apply for and obtain a PR TD.

Main risk, however, is merely not being allowed to board the scheduled flight, having to incur the inconvenience and expense of rescheduling the flight allowing time to apply for and obtain a PR TD.



IAPI, eTA, airline check-in, pre-boarding screening, et al:

The IAPI system is applicable to almost all passengers, not just for those who need eTA. The IAPI system works off the conjunction of the traveler's personal information (name, DoB, nationality, gender) and a specific Travel Document.

To get a board response from the IAPI system, the system will need to identify the particular individual, based on the API (name, DoB, nationality, gender) AND the id number for the specific Travel Document with which that individual has previously obtained authorization to enter Canada. For visa-exempt travelers, this means their name et al must be connected to the specific visa-exempt passport for which eTA has been granted.

Many anecdotal reports about clearance for boarding are vague or confused, many reporting as if the CBSA clearance occurs during the pre-boarding documents screening, which is to verify the person boarding the flight is the person who checked-in and was issued a boarding pass, not recognizing that the airlines already did the prescribed travel document screening when the passenger checked-in for the flight and was issued a boarding pass. As andrews65 has observed, the airline swipes (or keys in) the passport (or in some cases, another type of Travel Document), and the IAPI system electronically confirms this person AND this travel document have authorization (in the system) to come to Canada. Hence the binary: board or no-board response.

There is no has-eTA or does-not-have-eTA response. There is no "needs PR card" or "traveler is a PR" response.

If a traveler presents a visa-exempt passport and the response is "no-board," the airline's personnel will probably ask questions, such as "did you get eTA?" or "do you have eTA?" or some other question which the airline personnel is trained to ask in these situations. But whatever the question, it is based on a "no board" response, not on any other indication or reference to other status in the response from the IAPI system. (Many airline personnel are probably trained to discern from the traveler's passport what questions about status should be asked, so they may ask something like "are you a PR?" but not because the IAPI system suggested that.)

Thus, for example, any PR who has obtained eTA prior to becoming a PR can easily test the system the next time he or she is returning to Canada from abroad, by presenting their visa-exempt passport (at the time of check-in) and seeing how it goes. Best to have a PR card (or be prepared to miss the flight and having to reschedule, with time to obtain a PR TD). If the airline personnel respond indicating a problem, just present the PR card while saying something like "do I need to show you this too?"



Sources:

In addition to the valuable, informative CBSA Memorandum which andrews65 linked above, which again is at:
http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publications/dm-md/d2/d2-5-11-eng.html?pedisable=true

there are many other sources for information related to how the IAPI system works, including information about eTA :

Interactive Advance Passenger Information (IAPI):
http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/btb-pdf/iapi-ipvi-eng.html

Advance Passenger Information / Passenger Name Record Program:
http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/security-securite/api_ipv-eng.html

Guide for Transporters:
http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/trans/guide-eng.html

Memorandum D1-16-3 titled " Guidelines for the Access to, Use, and Disclosure of Advance Passenger Information (API) and Passenger Name Record (PNR) Data" at http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publications/dm-md/d1/d1-16-3-eng.html

General information about Electronic Travel Authorization (eTA) can be accessed following links at http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/visit/eta.asp

http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/btb-pdf/webinar-eng.html
http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/btb-pdf/iapi-ipvi-eng.html

Manually processing electronic travel authorization applications:
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/tools/temp/eta/procedures.asp
(while this is about particular, manual procedures, not about the routine automated processes, it illuminates many aspects about how the eTA program works)

IRPA regulations regarding application for eTA, period of validity, and cancellation:
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2002-227/page-4.html#docCont

Passenger Information (Customs) Regulations
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2003-219/FullText.html
Regulation 5 lists the prescribed information which constitutes the information the transporter must submit regarding each passenger . . . the "API" . . . which is the same information prescribed in IRPA Regulation 269(1) and referenced in Protection of Passenger Information Regulations.

Protection of Passenger Information Regulations:
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2005-346/FullText.html



Note: there is an online tool for checking eTA status.

This can be reached by a link at:
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?qnum=1192&top=16

The user can select "I have an approved eTA. I want to consult my file."

It is only practical to make a query for someone who has been granted eTA or who has an application for eTA pending.

I do not know what the output looks like. My guess is that there is simply a confirmation eTA is valid, or is not valid, for the query: "I have an approved eTA. I want to consult my file."

I also suppose that making the query may in itself trigger revalidation, which could result in the cancellation of eTA for someone who has, since obtaining eTA, acquired PR status.

For a PR who obtained eTA prior to landing, this could resolve the question . . . and of course, if anyone does use this tool, please share the results with us here.
 

andrews65

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Jan 23, 2016
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App. Filed.......
29-09-2016
AOR Received.
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Med's Done....
Upfront: 28-07-2016
LANDED..........
14-02-2017
I've responded to the eTA question in this thread http://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/new-prs-what-is-etas-current-status-t475524.0.html
 

Skitz

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PPR sent 25th Jan/Jan 31st
Quick question, once a COPR is issued, do we still have to apply for an ETA on a visa exempt passport to do our landing? Do airlines accept the COPR - it does state that a visa is not required for visa exempt passports, but not sure the airlines are in the know.

Also, when applying for ETA online, one of the questions is length of stay (start and end date), and funds available.

Not sure how you put an end date on the ETA online application when you plan to land as a PR.

Advice and experiences appreciated.
 

Rob_TO

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Med's Done....
Sent with App
Passport Req..
N/R - Exempt
VISA ISSUED...
30-10-2012
LANDED..........
16-11-2012
Skitz said:
Quick question, once a COPR is issued, do we still have to apply for an ETA on a visa exempt passport to do our landing? Do airlines accept the COPR - it does state that a visa is not required for visa exempt passports, but not sure the airlines are in the know.
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?qnum=1184&top=16