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After 5 Years...Rejected!!!!!

amazing21

Star Member
Sep 30, 2014
182
1
Ardi77 said:
Became PR: Oct 2008
Citizenship Application: Nov 2010
4 years period:Nov 2007 - Nov 2010(Partly Student Visa)
Citizenship Test: March 2012 (Scarborough Centre)
Hearing with Aris Babikian: Oct 2014

I made my biggest mistake in my life and sent my citizenship application 58 days earlier, and now after 5 years Judge(Babikian) rejected my case.

During 2007-2010, I went to university in Canada and I was working in one of the canadian bank with all the paychecks available. After hearing, Babikian told me that everything is fine with my case and it is just one missing border stamp in my passport which he would inquire from the border control. He even asked for my police report 2 months ago and then after he received it, he declined my case.

He gave me the option either to apply again or apply for judicial review. I have been in Canada since Dec 2004 and I may have been out of country not more than 4 month during this time. I am so upset with this extreme unfairness of the system and I am asking for help from whoever has knowledge with this matter to help me if I should re-apply or apply for judicial review. :( :( :(


In advance, thanks for your help and respond.

I dont know your case , but find a lawyer and if you think you have valid reasons try through appeal.. A lot of people have won appeals on their citizenship process……….good luck

Or you can wait again….they don't care about anything , they care if you meet the requirements and your clearances are good.
 

jhjeppe

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Sorry buddy....
But you don't get to be upset about your application. There is no unfairness here and their decision was just.

58 days is not a miscalculation. and that has got nothing to do with being smart as you have indicated... In recent years, they have these great new tools that we call calculators... With the online residence calculator, you literally do not even have to think... You put in your dates and it does the rest for you...

you were not treated unfairly, you were not wronged, if anything, you wasted CIC's time and my tax dollars...

I just don't understand how you can make a miscalculation like that...

Just my two cents...
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
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It has been easy to judge the error of making a shortfall application in recent years, since it has become widely known and understood that the primary test for assessing residency was the calculation of days actually physically present.

This was not so widely known in 2010 when the OP made the application falling short of 1095 days APP by less than two months.

Generally, residency is understood to be the address where one maintains his or her primary place of abode. When someone living in Sudbury goes to Toronto for a weekend or for a month, he remains a resident of Sudbury. If he goes to Halifax for two weeks, he is still a resident of Ontario not Nova Scotia.

But for citizenship, particularly since 2006 (and we all know what happened to change things in 2006 . . . or at least we all should know), "residency" became more or less synonymous with physical presence. EXCEPT CIC never publicized this. Right up to June 10, 2015, CIC never publicly acknowledged that it generally opposed the so-called shortfall applicant. Indeed, CIC misleadingly (outright deceptively I would say) informed applicants that if they met the basic residency requirement but were not actually physically present at least 1095 days, it was up to a Citizenship Judge to decide if they were qualified for citizenship. But in the last five or six years, in contrast, CIC began submitting negative referrals encouraging CJs to deny approval to shortfall applicants (never informing applicants this is what would happen if they relied on just meeting the basic residency requirement) and totally contrary to what CIC was saying about it being up to the CJ, CIC was routinely appealing CJ decisions to grant approval for shortfall applicants.

This was not merely an omission of legal advice. It was misleading if not overtly deceptive. To assure prospective applicants a CJ could approve their shortfall application and then to challenge the CJ's decision, to seek an order from the Federal Court to throw out the decision, if a CJ did grant approval, was blatantly unfair.

The OP applied in 2010. It was not until Justices Rennie and Snider issued decisions in 2011 that it was even apparent to those following the process, but outside CIC, that CIC's approach had changed dramatically . . . CIC arguing that the proper test for determining residency, contrary to nearly three decades of Federal Court law otherwise, was the physical presence test . . . and Justices Rennie and Snider were the first to specifically rule that the physical presence test was the only proper interpretation and application of the residency requirement. Again, that happened in 2011, after the OP applied.

A person remains a resident of Sudbury even if he spends a lot of time in Toronto, but for CIC those days he crossed into New York State, he was no longer resident-in-Canada. For the ordinary person it is hard to comprehend how he could be a resident of Sudbury, Ontario but not of Canada.

Numerous Federal Court justices railed about the state of confusion in the law. It was one thing back before 2011, when there was a great deal of uncertainty in how the application might turn out, particularly relative to what the CJ might decide when there was a significantly large shortfall (and there were many cases in which applicants were four, five, even six hundred or more days short of 1095), but totally another when the government began pushing (again without informing the public they were doing so) to deny citizenship even to those applicants who quite literally and obviously had only taken ordinary trips abroad adding up to failing short of 1095 days APP by a couple or three months. The latter were clearly still residing in Canada during the time traveling abroad but CIC began pushing CJs to conclude they were not resident-in-Canada.

All this has been put to rest by the SCCA, by the government finally implementing a presence requirement rather than a residency requirement. But it should not be forgotten how this government treated hundreds of thousands of new immigrants over the years, failing to fairly inform new immigrants about how it had radically changed its approach to processing citizenship applications.

As I noted, yes, by 2012, especially when the RQ purge was in full force and many tens of thousands of qualified applicants were compelled to open their lives to intense scrutiny and wait years to even have their applications heard, it was well apparent to most that CIC had dramatically changed its approach to shortfall applicants . . . but CIC never informed the public of this, not even right up to June 10, 2015.

And you can safely bet that hundreds, if not thousands of shortfall applications were made this spring . . . scores and scores of immigrants relying on what CIC had posted versus what almost everyone here well knew. While those making these applications should have made themselves better informed, CIC shares a great deal of the blame for this.

And make no mistake, this has indeed undoubtedly contributed greatly to the amount of CIC resources spent on cases ultimately legitimately denied . . . but again, CIC shares at least a big part of the blame for this . . . wasting our taxpayer dollars and imposing unfair timeline on thousands of qualified applicants.
 

SenoritaBella

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Do you mind sharing what happened to change things in 2006? The only thing I can recall around that time is a change in the ruling party from Liberal to Conservative. Is this it?
 

on-hold

Champion Member
Feb 6, 2010
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SenoritaBella said:
Do you mind sharing what happened to change things in 2006? The only thing I can recall around that time is a change in the ruling party from Liberal to Conservative. Is this it?
Without access to internal bureaucratic correspondence - which dpenabill, despite his general excellence, probably does not have -- there's no real way to know why an interpretation of regulations changed. That said, there is no reason to think that the change was independent of, and coincident with, the election of a Conservative government.
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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A lot of history . . .


SenoritaBella said:
Do you mind sharing what happened to change things in 2006? The only thing I can recall around that time is a change in the ruling party from Liberal to Conservative. Is this it?
Yes, the impetus for change was clearly concurrent with the Conservatives winning the election (for a minority government at that time) in 2006. While many of the changes were not immediate or overtly apparent while Diane Finley was CIC Minister, soon after Jason Kenney became the Minister more obvious changes were being implemented. This has been across the board in many aspects of immigration. And deception has been common. Jason Kenney announced, for example, a "brief pause" in accepting parent and grand parent family sponsorship applications, but in reality had terminated the program and more than two years later CIC finally implemented a new program which is at most a mere shadow of the prior program. This is not to say that aspect of immigration did not need serious reform or to even criticize the program eventually adopted . . . it is to say, however, that the Minister of CIC overtly lied about what CIC was doing. Try saying you did not report a two month (let alone two year) absence because you overlooked such a brief pause in your presence in Canada, and see how quickly your application for citizenship goes off the rails . . . or, even, potentially how many months you spend in jail for fraud.



on-hold said:
Without access to internal bureaucratic correspondence - which dpenabill, despite his general excellence, probably does not have -- there's no real way to know why an interpretation of regulations changed. That said, there is no reason to think that the change was independent of, and coincident with, the election of a Conservative government.
Actually, many of us have seen lots of internal CIC memos and other documents. There was one period, during the time period 2012 to late 2013, when in particular there were scores of ATIP requests for internal CIC documents, by many of us following the changes taking place, all of which are readily accessible to everyone else (once the request was complete) via a simple email to CIC requesting a copy (responses were sporadic, sometimes taking many months, but eventually I got all those I asked for).

Additionally, a number of people were sharing their personal ATI requests responses, which is how many of us eventually obtained a copy of the File Requirements Checklist containing the triage criteria for residency screening, something which CIC has gone to great efforts to not have publicly disclosed. (Because of CIC's efforts to conceal major aspects of their practices, the ATIP request responses were, thus, characteristically difficult to read given the extent to which parts were redacted.)

So many of us have indeed had access to voluminous internal CIC memos.

But more than that, there are the arguments made by CIC reflected in the Federal Court decisions over the course of many years. I do not purport to have read all citizenship decisions, but I have read nearly all that have been issued in the last five or so years, and a large percentage of those issued before that and since around 2000.

Perhaps it should be acknowledged that the Liberals were still the ruling party when the policy was adopted to screen applicants' passports looking for indications they had been abroad and were returning just in time to take the test or attend the interview (that Operational Bulletin came out in 2005), targeting applicants who were leaving Canada after applying. Indeed, that Bulletin appears to have initiated the first big wave of RQ and it did appear to start when the Liberals were the ruling party . . . but it was when Jason Kenney took the reins from Diane Finley a few years later, when the mpre draconian practices began to be implemented and, at the same time, transparency disappeared (2009, for example, is the last year we have a Citizenship Commission report detailing the work and decisions made by Citizenship Judges, cases appealed, cases subject to Mandamus, and so on . . . under Kenney's watch these reports and many, many more simply ceased).

But it is clear the applicant going abroad while the application is pending was really more a pet peeve of the Tories and here too it was not until 2011 or so that it became uncontestable that living abroad while the application was pending could lead to serious problems, despite the fact that time after applying is not relevant to the residency calculation itself (that said, I have seen some people still insisting, quite recently, there was no elevated scrutiny imposed on applicants because of extended post-application absences . . . notwithstanding the many many cases illustrating otherwise, and notwithstanding that including the "intent to reside" provision in the SCCA was primarily motivated by this issue).

It should also be acknowledged that the internal CIC memos revealed that even in late 2012 the formal policy regarding shortfall applications was that the referral for a Citizenship Judge hearing was only mandatory for applicants who had less than 900 days actual physical presence (that is, 190+ days short) . . . but by the time of those memos, it was already well apparent that actual practice in CIC was a lot, lot more strict toward shortfalls a lot smaller than that. In other words: it was readily apparent that CIC's formal policy did not reflect its actual practices.

The main indicators of change were referenced in Federal Court decisions citing arguments made by CIC. (Ironically, CIC's arguments in more recent cases appears to acknowledge the validity of a qualitative test . . . see the decision I linked in another topic just yesterday, CIC agreeing it was OK to apply a Koo test . . . disagreeing with how it was applied, but still acknowledging the validity of the test itself rather than a physical presence test.)

And there was the transition in the Federal Court itself. Justice Rennie was still a rookie on the bench, in 2011, when he broke ranks with over three decades of precedents and ruled that the actual presence test was the only correct interpretation and application of section 5(1)(c) (the "residency requirement"), and Justice Snider soon agreed, and subsequently a number of other Federal Court justices soon followed . . . perhaps it is just a coincidence that Donald Rennie was appointed to the bench on Harper;s watch and that the vast majority of those agreeing with that decision came to the bench under Harper, or that Justice Rennie has so quickly been promoted to the Federal Court of Appeal.

I am not one of those who say there are no coincidences. But this was no coincidence.

In any event, the case law maps the transition over the years.

Compare, for example, the SEIFFERT case, in 2005, and the Martinez-Caro case by Justice Rennie in June 2011.

The outcomes are interesting, Seiffert and family having huge shortfalls . . . the primary applicant short of 1095 days by 772 and the others by even more . . . and the Federal Court overruling the CJ's denial of approval for citizenship, versus the 2011 Rennie decision regarding an applicant who only had 689 days actual presence (306 days short of 1095), in which Justice Rennie upheld the CJ's denial of citizenship. But what looms large in the comparision is the underlying reasoning and description of the governing law.

To be clear: in the meantime there was NO change in the law regarding grant citizenship, none at all regarding the residency requirement. None.

Justice Rennie did not mince words, and despite three decades of precedents to the contrary, Justice Rennie ruled:

" . . . the interpretation of the residency provision of the Citizenship Act is subject to the standard of correctness and . . . residency means physical presence in Canada."

This did not just fly in out of the blue in 2011. This was more than two years prior to when I applied for citizenship, but I was already eligible for citizenship then, by several months. Back in 2009 I briefly thought I would apply in early 2011 or soon thereafter, but PMM and a couple others (in another forum . . . I assume it is the same PMM however) alerted me that CIC was already taking a tougher stance on actual physical presence. There was no consensus in the forums then. Many doubted that was really the case. Shortfall applications were still very common. The vast majority of RQ cases were about shortfall cases, big shortfalls, shortfalls by several hundred days.

I still do not know how PMM knew, in 2009, what very few others were seeing or knew. But then in 2011 Justice Rennie ruled there was only one correct interpretation and application of the residency requirement, not based on residency at all but based on actual physical presence. This was not, still is not, binding in other cases . . . but many Federal Court justices have followed suit.

Justice Snider, in particular, soon followed suit.

A more profound dichotomy is revealed in comparing Justice Snider's decision in the Mueller case, in 2005, and her decisions in the 2011 cases regarding Sinanan and Mao Ye.

In the 2011 Sinanan decision, Justice Snider stated her concurrence in Justice Rennie's interpretation, as if in over three decades, and scores and scores of decisions wrangling with the residency requirement, Justice Rennie was the first to actually apply the law governing statutory construction. Justice Snider stated:

In my view, the matter has come a long way towards resolution through the decision of my colleague, Justice Rennie, in Martinez-Caro, above. His decision differs from the others cited because, for the first time, a judge of our Court conducted an exacting analysis of s. 5(1)(c) using well-established modern principles of statutory interpretation. Justice Rennie concluded that application of these principles supports the physical presence test, and not the qualitative approach. Even if I might quibble with his characterization of the standard of review as correctness, his analysis and conclusion are compelling. I adopt his reasons and conclusion on this question.

Again, it is not the outcomes in the respective cases which looms so large, but rather the discussion about the applicable law.

In point of fact, the law itself had not changed at all, not one whit. The ruling government and its arguments, though, had changed. And the relationship between the Conservatives and Justice Rennie can, perhaps, best be summarized in his decision that not only is a grant of citizenship a privilege, but citizenship itself, even for those born in Canada, is a privilege which Parliament has the authority to confer or not, essentially at its will (see Justice Rennie's decision in the Galati challenge; and, by the way, I do not know, but I have a hard time seeing this aspect of Rennie's decision prevailing in the long term, as there is a huge difference in granting citizenship, which many judges have said is a privileg, versus the status of citizenship itself, which a core, fundamental part of any person's identity).


The main thing, however, is that there was clearly a transition over the course of the last decade, culminating in the SCCA which finally adopted the rule of physical presence as law.

But CIC, under the Conservative government, under Diane Finley and Jason Kenney (and to a lesser extent, Minister Alexander, who has more or less been a stand-in for Kenney, at least until recently) moved the goal posts a long time prior to Bill C-24 even being tabled, and they did so while still informing the public as if nothing had changed and that it was up to a CJ whether or not "residency" meant residency and if the applicant had been resident in Canada for 3+ years the CJ would decide whether the applicant got citizenship. (Unless CIC objected, something CIC declined to inform prospective applicants.)


That was the world when the OP here applied, back in 2010. PMM was warning people before then, but that warning was unusual. And while most of us were already getting the sense it was tougher, there was no shortage of contrary opinion being expressed in the forums, that there was no problem applying with a shortfall so long as the applicant had really been residing in Canada. In the meantime, the number of RQ cases was on the rise and the timeline for RQ'd cases was growing longer and longer. But CIC was not letting people know, barely a hint, what applying based on residency (rather than waiting to meet the physical presence test) really meant.

As I said, a big pile of our hard earned tax dollars have been wasted because of this . . . with much more to be wasted, as again I am sure scores, if not thousands of PRs applied with a shortfall this spring . . . while in the meantime local offices have been closed (ours was, and our "local office" is now over a 1,000 km away), CBC's funding has been deciminated, among so many other abuses of taxpayers' contributions.

Sorry if this comes across as a bit of a rant, but over the years I have watched many, many people come to this and a couple other similar forums, confused about the residency requirement, more confused when contrary to what it said all along at the CIC web site they were told it was foolish to apply based on meeting the basic residency requirement . . . . but I have been living in Canada all this time . . . so why wouldn't the CJ rule in my favour?

Because, despite what the CIC site said, CIC was opposing shortfall applicants, and appealing those CJs were approving.

And again, I am quite sure that despite how many participants here posted dont' do it in response to the same old question, I am short, but . . . , the number who went ahead and applied is large. And I think CIC is mostly to blame for this, for failing to be honest with their clientele.
 

AUTO101

Full Member
Mar 16, 2015
22
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Ardi77 said:
He gave me the option either to apply again or apply for judicial review. I have been in Canada since Dec 2004 and I may have been out of country not more than 4 month during this time. I am so upset with this extreme unfairness of the system and I am asking for help from whoever has knowledge with this matter to help me if I should re-apply or apply for judicial review. :( :( :(
I am not sure where you originally from but in Canada, it is not unfair to reject an application that doesn't qualify the minimum requirement. 58 days or 1 day, we all have to follow the rules. May be it's time for you to learn that. You know what is unfair? Someone who fulfilled all the requirements and was delayed in getting his citizenship because CIC was reviewing your application.

You best bet is to reapply. And yes, don't call this unfairness of system because it is not. Follow the rules and fulfill the requirements and you will get your citizenship. Welcome to Canada.
 

on-hold

Champion Member
Feb 6, 2010
1,120
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Sorry, I stand corrected . . . That was a very interesting summary, thank you.

I would be interested to know if the sub rosa changes that took place were something that had been in the air for a while, or were catalyzed by a particular event, such as the airlift of expatriate Canadians from Lebanon.
 

LostinCalgary

Star Member
Nov 5, 2014
62
1
Ardi77 said:
I came to Canada because I taught they would treat me based on respect and fairness.... I guess I wasn't thinking straight to some extent...
They did, you just don't see it because the outcome was not in your favour and you are not happy, but they did not disrespect you and they were not unfair to you.
 

Ardi77

Member
Jun 26, 2015
18
0
jhjeppe said:
Sorry buddy....
But you don't get to be upset about your application. There is no unfairness here and their decision was just.

58 days is not a miscalculation. and that has got nothing to do with being smart as you have indicated... In recent years, they have these great new tools that we call calculators... With the online residence calculator, you literally do not even have to think... You put in your dates and it does the rest for you...

you were not treated unfairly, you were not wronged, if anything, you wasted CIC's time and my tax dollars...

I just don't understand how you can make a miscalculation like that...
That is a mystery for myself....
I have a master in finance from a canadian university and I think I know how to use the calculator...

I don't know what kind of calculator they designed, but it is so simple:
Landed Oct 2008 -----> Applied Nov 2010(No exit from Canada)=2 Yrs
Been in Canada more than 3 years before landing=1 Yr

It seems to me more than 3 years presence, I am not sure about the CIC fancy calculator....

Now lets say, god forbid I made a mistake...... why they would ask me to take the citizenship test 2 yrs after and then ask me to sit in front of a judge(Aris Babikian) who apparently doesn't have the authority to compensate 4.5 years of my life here in Canada for that 58 days.... :-X

May be we should stop blaming each other for tax dollar, and start blaming ourselves for the fact that we are fine with whatever the governmenr is doing with your tax dollars...
 

Ardi77

Member
Jun 26, 2015
18
0
AUTO101 said:
I am not sure where you originally from but in Canada, it is not unfair to reject an application that doesn't qualify the minimum requirement. 58 days or 1 day, we all have to follow the rules. May be it's time for you to learn that. You know what is unfair? Someone who fulfilled all the requirements and was delayed in getting his citizenship because CIC was reviewing your application.

You best bet is to reapply. And yes, don't call this unfairness of system because it is not. Follow the rules and fulfill the requirements and you will get your citizenship. Welcome to Canada.
By any chance, did you read the part that I got rejected after 5 years ::) I don't have any problem with the rejection, so please read my story carefully.... :mad:

If I had my rejection letter right after I applied 5 Years ago, I could call that day the best day in my life over past 5 YEARS.

Thanks for being a concerned citizen....
 

LostinCalgary

Star Member
Nov 5, 2014
62
1
Ardi77 said:
That is a mystery for myself....
I have a master in finance from a canadian university and I think I know how to use the calculator...

I don't know what kind of calculator they designed, but it is so simple:
Landed Oct 2008 -----> Applied Nov 2010(No exit from Canada)=2 Yrs
Been in Canada more than 3 years before landing=1 Yr

It seems to me more than 3 years presence, I am not sure about the CIC fancy calculator....
Man the calculator is not fancy and it has nothing to do with you having a masters degree or not. Even with your masters degree did you miscalculate your physical presence in Canada for the relevant period or not? You said at the beginning that you were 58 days short and now you are saying you had been here for three years, so which one is it? If you are short, you are short and do not qualify. You said before you are used to the private sector way of doing things where things are done efficiently and goals have to be reached every day. So I guess you also know that in the private sector if you are short for x number of days or x amount of money you are shown the door, simple. Next time apply that efficiency at putting together your application.


Ardi77 said:
Now lets say, god forbid I made a mistake...... why they would ask me to take the citizenship test 2 yrs after and then ask me to sit in front of a judge(Aris Babikian) who apparently doesn't have the authority to compensate 4.5 years of my life here in Canada for that 58 days.... :-X
That I agree with, the time it takes to CIC to make a decision is ridiculous and I hope during those 5 years you made everything in your power to raise your voice about that. However, no matter how much time you spent in Canada after your application, the judge is only looking at your relevant period, no more, as ridiculous as it sounds to you, those are the rules, and you yourself selected your relevant period before you sent your application. After that you don't get to pick and choose what you want CIC to look at. A hearing with a judge doesn't entitle you grant of citizenship.

Ardi77 said:
May be we should stop blaming each other for tax dollar, and start blaming ourselves for the fact that we are fine with whatever the governmenr is doing with your tax dollars...
What leads you to believe people here is fine with the way government uses tax dollars? I'd say many of us keep an eye on what the government is doing and at least I try to contact my representatives and government through the appropriate channels whenever I have a complaint or suggestion. I hope you do the same. But also take responsibility for your part in this case. You applied for your citizenship even though you did not qualify, however long your application was in the queue, it was clogging the system and using resources. Again, you were not treated disrespectfully or unfairly.
 

screech339

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Ardi77 said:
That is a mystery for myself....
I have a master in finance from a canadian university and I think I know how to use the calculator...

I don't know what kind of calculator they designed, but it is so simple:
Landed Oct 2008 -----> Applied Nov 2010(No exit from Canada)=2 Yrs
Been in Canada more than 3 years before landing=1 Yr

It seems to me more than 3 years presence, I am not sure about the CIC fancy calculator....

Now lets say, god forbid I made a mistake...... why they would ask me to take the citizenship test 2 yrs after and then ask me to sit in front of a judge(Aris Babikian) who apparently doesn't have the authority to compensate 4.5 years of my life here in Canada for that 58 days.... :-X

May be we should stop blaming each other for tax dollar, and start blaming ourselves for the fact that we are fine with whatever the governmenr is doing with your tax dollars...
You keep saying 3 years before PR = 1 year. You can't claim 3 years of pre-PR. You can only claim 2 years prior to PR towards citizenship, each day pre-pr = 1/2 day toward citizenship.

So it is possible you were missing out on the 58 days in the 2 year of Pre-PR days. You cannot use all 3 years of pre-PR when you can only calculate 4 years from prior to application not 5 years.
 

neutral

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screech339 said:
You keep saying 3 years before PR = 1 year. You can't claim 3 years of pre-PR. You can only claim 2 years prior to PR towards citizenship, each day pre-pr = 1/2 day toward citizenship.

So it is possible you were missing out on the 58 days in the 2 year of Pre-PR days. You cannot use all 3 years of pre-PR when you can only calculate 4 years from prior to application not 5 years.
Yeah.

What's more hilarious is that after 5 years process including a hearing with a judge, a master degree working in a bank doesn't understand yet which was exactly the miscalculation...
 

Ardi77

Member
Jun 26, 2015
18
0
LostinCalgary said:
Man the calculator is not fancy and it has nothing to do with you having a masters degree or not. Even with your masters degree did you miscalculate your physical presence in Canada for the relevant period or not? You said at the beginning that you were 58 days short and now you are saying you had been here for three years, so which one is it? If you are short, you are short and do not qualify. You said before you are used to the private sector way of doing things where things are done efficiently and goals have to be reached every day. So I guess you also know that in the private sector if you are short for x number of days or x amount of money you are shown the door, simple. Next time apply that efficiency at putting together your application.
I already mention my dates couple of times,,,




I hope that your statements are based on some true practice of CIC, because the judge was just asking about the period after application...



It was the answer for a comment regarding that I am wasting tax dollars...