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Advice Please

Amir Shuval

Full Member
Mar 26, 2010
37
2
Richmond Hill, ON
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
toby said:
Attention PMM, Amir Shuval, and 123sweet:

There are two issues here:
1) How to make the application more convincing? ; and
2) Is professional help necessary?

1) An immigration lawyer I talked to said his main work is handling appeals, and it is often easy work because the years that have elapsed waiting for the appeal date tends to prove the relationship was genuine (if, of course the couple is still together!). 123sweet, sorry to alert you to the additional years in store for you, but that's the reality.

So, presumably, showing time spent together by the time the appeal date arrives would add proof that the relationship is genuine -- even if that time “together” must be mainly by Internet conversations and holidays spent together with each other's families, because 123sweet has a job in Canada.

PMM: please explain why you think a new application (or an appeal too?) would be doomed? Your viewpoint might help 1233 sweet prepare a better case.

(I make some suggestions at the end of this long reply.)

2) Is professional help a good idea? My experience might help you decide, 123sweet. Of course, the less articulate the appellant, the more complex the case, the more the help of an expert is needed. But the converse holds true too.

I used a specialist at first, but we parted company because we could not agree on the content of the application, and he was unapologetically wrong on some other important points. Later, as I was completing the application myself, I found this forum, and discovered that many already-successful applicants had included in their applications the type of information my former consultant wanted to exclude. So, turns out I was right to fire him.

Then I interviewed several other consultants, because I wanted to leave nothing to chance. But neither did I want to repeat the negative experience with the first consultant. Each “new” consultant wanted all the money up front, and each one assured me they could improve my application considerably. So I sent them my completed forms, and asked them to point out two things they would change to improve the application significantly. Without exception their suggestions were trivial – certainly not worth thousands of dollars.

Again, this is not to say some people would be helped by a professional, but be very careful in choosing one: there are many charlatans and incompetents out there. Don't give him/her all the money up front; instead pay in stages, so that they must demonstrate competence in stage 1 before getting the money for stage 2, etc. If the consultant doesn't want to proceed that way, seek someone else more confident in the quality of their service, confident that you will be a satisfied client and pay him/her for the entire process.


How to prepare for the appeal:
Put yourself in the shoes of a careful appeals officer who wants to be certain your relationship is genuine before approving your application. He or she knows that some relationships similar to yours in some respects have been found to be false relationships. This doesn't mean yours is false; just that the appeals officer is going to be looking hard at the genuineness. So do the research recommended in other answers in this thread, make a list of points the appeals officer will look at, then get proof on these points. If you need help doing this, then you need a professional; if not, you don't.

Good luck!!
I don't really know the circumstances of the case and without the specifics I can't say what is needed to improve the likelihood for a case to be approved at the visa office level, ADR or hearing.

But I can give some good insight into the question of professional help.

My recommendation is to hire someone if you are already involved in the appeal process.

Even if the appellant is articulate, I don't see it as a good idea testing your ability to deal with the IAD rules and everything else, for the first time, when your own case is on the line.

You can get a minister counsel who has been doing this for years. If you go to a full hearing hire someone.

The ADR is a different story because even if the minister counsel does not consent to the appeal you can go to the full hearing. Having said that , I did help many clients, who were in the clueless category, present a stronger case during the ADR.

If you are facing an ADR, at the very least go for a consultation with sponsorship appeals specialist that will break down the ADR conference process for you and perhaps look over the documentary evidence you have. With due respect to all the do-it-yourselvers in all the Canadian immigration forums online, I don't think trying to save $150-$250 consultation fee by avoiding a meeting with a lawyer or CSIC member who has the experience with the IAD makes much sense. The sponsor in most cases is in Canada. It is not that difficult to book an appointment with someone who has that kind of experience.

I think the problem for most people is that they simply don't know how to go about it. Being an industry insider it is probably easy for me to define in my head exactly the kind of service I would seek and what would be a reasonable fee.

I, as the appealing sponsor, would contact someone with experience and after verifying the practitioner particular experience with these case would do something along the lines of mailing them a copy of the record and a cheque for ~$150 and ask them to extract the main issues raised in the CAIPS by the Visa Officer. Then book a meeting and pay another $150-$200 for that consultation.

The advice you will receive will help you understand the case. You will take that knowledge to the full hearing if you don't win at the ADR stage.

There is something very naive (naturally) in some of the comments I read here when contrasting that with minister counsel's questions either at the ADR or the full hearing. People in bogus relationship cannot fool them. And even if you are in a real relationship they will grill you before consenting. And when grilling they come from different angles. The scope is much greater than " show me photos and phone bills". In most cases the minister counsel does not care about those things. They will go through the sponsor's passport to verify trips or look for a specific document in connection to a specific question/issue/concern. They are much more concerned with the timeline of the relationship development, number of visits, financial standings of both parties, knowledge of each other. sometimes they use the case to nail the sponsor for his or her own sponsorship case(when the sponsor was applicant) if they think the sponsor was brought to Canada through MOC.


Professional help with reapplying can also be useful ,but here I think your actions can determine if and to what extent professional assistance is required. Someone can go and live with the applicant for 2 years before reapplying, have kids and make the case nearly a slam dunk by the time CPC-Mississauga get the new application package.
 

toby

Champion Member
Sep 29, 2009
1,671
104
Category........
Visa Office......
Hong Kong
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
November 2009
Med's Done....
October 2009 and 15 April 2011
Interview........
4 April 2011
Passport Req..
4 April 2011
VISA ISSUED...
7 July 2011
LANDED..........
15 July 2011
Perhaps, Amir.

What would the applicant get during the consultation in exchange for the initial fee? And do you think my suggestions about how to structure payment (progress payments) are reasonable? Would some (good) consultants agree to such terms?

Certainly a consultant's willingness to be paid by the quality of work, not insist the client pay the entire fee up front and hope for the best, would tend to build confidence.
 

Amir Shuval

Full Member
Mar 26, 2010
37
2
Richmond Hill, ON
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
toby said:
Perhaps, Amir.

What would the applicant get during the consultation in exchange for the initial fee? And do you think my suggestions about how to structure payment (progress payments) are reasonable? Would some (good) consultants agree to such terms?

Certainly a consultant's willingness to be paid by the quality of work, not insist the client pay the entire fee up front and hope for the best, would tend to build confidence.
Hi Toby,

You need to tell me exactly what kind of service you are talking about and then I can discuss my fee structure and I don't have a problem to give you an insight to my end of things as a licensed practitioner.

I have to tell you that in some instances I also demand full payment upfront because there are many bad clients not just bad practitioners. And it has a lot to do with the case itself.

Just a simple example:

Someone is contacting me for help with a work permit. The circumstances are such that there is no guarantee the document will be issue but the client insists on giving it a shot. I am in the Toronto area. The client is in Alberta or the Philippines. Doesn't really matter.

I charge for a work permit CAD$1,150. Most of the work is done before the application. I normally charge 50% upfront and the remainder after the document is issued. If it is a clear cut case when client meet regulatory requirements I will offer refund under certain terms.

Now back to this particular client. He is not a clear cut case. A client does not pay for the outcome, he pays me for my time. If he doesn't get a positive result and the retainer states a refund is due he will get a refund. But first and foremost, he pays for my time regardless of the result.

Now if I take only 50% upfront and wait for the work permit to be issued, and the work permit is refused, will I ever see the remaining balance?
Probably not.So how can I not charge the full amount upfront?

As a consumer you should always do whatever you are comfortable with, but keep in mind there is a reason why many is a particular industry doing certain things in a certain way.

The clients many times don't understand why charges are what they are and the timing of the charges.

For instance, I am a mobile consultant in the Toronto area. IF someone calls me I will go to their location and meet them.

Some folks don't understand why I am asking for authorization on the credit card before a consultation.

Well, I am not going to drive around the GTA simply because someone called me. I can be in Mississauga and get a call from someone in Scarborough. I am not just getting into my car a driving hoping there will be a person on the other side and that person will pay me.

Some people want to pay cash. Some people are not comfortable giving credit card info before we meet. That is fine. Those people can't be my clients.

For me, I know that I am licensed. If I pull some monkey business I will lose my CSIC membership and my livelihood.

I don't know who the client is. And I don't want to find out that he or she are some who are not good for the 2nd installment when I have done my work upfront.

Toby, I am sorry because now you probably starting to understand things are more complicated than you initially thought.

Payment in stages is generally a good idea but it depends on the circumstances and lawyers/consultants in many cases have valid reasons not to accept this arrangement.

Deal only with authorize representatives.

Give me a particular service and I can help you figure out the proper way to structure the fee schedule.

Amir Shuval CCIC
 

BeShoo

Champion Member
Jan 16, 2010
1,212
36
Gatineau
Category........
Visa Office......
CPP-Ottawa
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
29-01-2014
AOR Received.
28-02-2014
File Transfer...
03-03-2014
Med's Request
19-06-2014
Med's Done....
07-08-2014
Interview........
None
VISA ISSUED...
02-04-2015
LANDED..........
13-04-2015
Amir Shuval said:
They are much more concerned with the timeline of the relationship development, number of visits, financial standings of both parties, knowledge of each other.
Would you be willing to say what, in the "financial standings of both parties", would be likely to raise more concerns? What is it in the financial standings that would make for a more or a less difficult case?
 

Amir Shuval

Full Member
Mar 26, 2010
37
2
Richmond Hill, ON
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
BeShoo said:
Would you be willing to say what, in the "financial standings of both parties", would be likely to raise more concerns? What is it in the financial standings that would make for a more or a less difficult case?
Financial standing are extremely important:

-If the sponsor is poor it can raise concern for some kind of monetary arrangement
-Although no LICO test is applicable in spousal sponsorship applicant can still be inadmissible pursuant to A39. the couple must show the financial arrangement they have in place. I just came across a case where the spousal sponsorship was refused on A39. Minister counsel at the ADR can add reasons for the visa officer's decision to refuse.
 

deegirl

Full Member
Aug 29, 2008
44
4
you are kidding me right...why did you get married so soon,,,i brought my hubby from morocco with 10 yrs difference...he just wanted the visa ,,,i would say count your blessings and run lady run
 

123sweet

Newbie
Apr 23, 2010
2
0
Category........
Visa Office......
Ankara, Turkey
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
December 5, 2009 ~~ December 3, 2010 reapplied
File Transfer...
January 7, 2010~~ January 10, 2011 reapproved
Med's Request
February 4, 2011 (TB Test & X-ray)
Med's Done....
February 21, 2011
Interview........
March 17, 2010~~ February 16, 2011 APPROVED
Passport Req..
Feb 16, 2011
VISA ISSUED...
Mar 17/10 denied ~~~
Well hello

I would like share and update of our application progress:

We choose to hire a lawyer to help us reapply again{$5000 approx incl. all fees}. Basically submitted the same information as we did on our first try. Our supporting documentation on the other hand was more than before: MSN conversations (1st 2 pgs of everyday we talked), phone/cell bills, Christmas cards we rec'd, pics 100+, letters of support from family and friends) {Our lawyer commented that he has never forward that much documentation before~but we were determined to cover ALL this time} , BUT I do believe that "LENGTH of TIME" was the main factor. In total I returned to my husband's home land 6 times.

This time in his interview it was like 'night' and 'day'~ the IO was pleasant, and the atmosphere was calm. Sample questions he was asked: My work information, title, phone #
All about every member in my immediate family(parents/siblings/nieces/children), names, occupations, where they live, how do they communicate
Age difference
My favorites and dislikes
Make and color of my vehicle
About my current accomodations
About Alberta and prospects of work
**and they do READ the MSN conversations~my husband was questioned on conversations we had there

The IO then said they were happy to approve our application and would be issuing his Visa within a weeks time. (In the end she apologized to my husband that we missed the opportunity to celebrate his birthday together this year). The total time to conduct the interview was 40 minutes.

Thank you for the advice that was shared and I hope this update may help others in the future. God Bless!
 
J

jdwhite21

Guest
Congrats 123sweet!!

That is good news that you were approved this time! Hopefully my husband and I will be approved this second time around as you were!!! (we also hired a lawyer this second time around)

Congrats again :)