Advice Please

[123sweet]

Hello to all,

Finally I found this forum And I am hoping that anyone can pass on some advice to me (my ears/eyes are open).

The Facts:

Was previously married for 20 yrs (divorce decree dated Jan 7, 2009)
Met my husband on line in June of 2008
He is 20 yrs younger than me
He is a Turkish national
Was denied a visitor visa to Canada in April 2009
I traveled to Turkey in June of 2009 (1 month)
Returned to Turkey in October 2009 (2 weeks-only had no vacation time left from work) was married on Oct 20/09 ;D
(my computer crashed October 2009...lost all msn conversations- I did mention this in our application and gave them a print screen showing there were conversations starting in June 2008-this all that the computer technician could recover for me)
Sent family class application in Dec 5, 2009, approved to sponsor, file forwarded to Visa office in Ankara, Turkey
-supporting documents sent: photos, marriage book, phone bills, cell phone bills, airline tickets and 6 weeks of conversation on msn (over 500 pages) :S

February 2010 returned to Turkey for 1 month and while there my husband received notice of his interview with the visa office

Husband went for interview at Canadian Consulate in Ankara on March 17th, 2010 (interview did not go well...he got impression that she (visa officer) already could not believe the marriage was legitimate, based on the fact that "his new wife would enter into marriage so soon after being in bad one" "that my husband does not talk to my parents (they don't talk to me :S)"

Anyway, his gut feeling was right and we were denied

This is the word for word reason why it was denied that was sent to my husband:

"I interviewed you on Mar 17, and I have determined that your marriage is not genuine or was entered into primarily for the purpose of acquiring any status or privilege under the Act. I have based this decision on the following:

There are problems wit the story of how your relationship developed, most notably your very limited English language ability and the relationship developed through internet messages. You have not provided convincing evidence of communications. The fact that your wedding ceremony was so informal and was done in a haste suggest that the event did not hold great significance to either you or your spouse. taking these factors and all your application into consideration, although the marriage entered into on 20 Oct 2009 between you and your sponsor was legal, I believe you entered into this marriage for the sole purpose of gaining admission to Canada as a member of the family class. For the purpose of the regulations, you are not considered a spouse and are therefore not a member of the family class"

I have contacted my MP and the Canadian immigration call center (after being on hold for 45 mins. could not offer any steps to help with application process...since they have no jurisdiction over foreign visa offices)

Most beneficial conversation was with the MP office - suggested that I do not appeal decision (know of a lot of people using lawyers and not succeeding and that there is a huge expense with very few positive outcomes) , but rather re apply again.

We are planning to re apply in July after I return from my visit to him in Turkey for the month of June 2010.

Sorry that there is so much info...but i hope this gives a clear outline of where we are at...and why I am here looking for advice, suggestions, examples of how to "beef up" our application to prove that it is a genuine marriage.

Thank you in advance for all that take the time to read this and respond....

 

[RobsLuv]

Time. In my opinion, time is your best friend. Either it will give you further opportunity to build the relationship - or it will be the downfall of it. I am not being critical, and I am not trying to be negative, but time has a way of revealing truth . . . not only to immigration officials who suspect a non-genuine relationship, but also to you - who believes very much that they are wrong. I sincerely hope they are - and if they are, your love will survive this and you'll be able to prove, just by virtue of that fact, that they made a mistake.

Fact is, it is very common for these types of cases to be refused because it is very common for foreign nationals to enter into relationship with vulnerable Canadians (especially divorced females), just to gain entry to Canada. I am NOT in any way saying this is the situation with your marriage, but I've seen many accounts where Canadian nationals very sincerely believed that their's was a relationship of love and commitment, and when the immigration application was decided (whether favourably or not), everything changed and their hearts were broken.

So, again, time is your friend. My advice: don't fight it. Allow things to play out as they will so that, in the end, you will know for sure that you have found the love of a lifetime.

 

[PMM]

Hi

Time. In my opinion, time is your best friend. Either it will give you further opportunity to build the relationship - or it will be the downfall of it. I am not being critical, and I am not trying to be negative, but time has a way of revealing truth . . . not only to immigration officials who suspect a non-genuine relationship, but also to you - who believes very much that they are wrong. I sincerely hope they are - and if they are, your love will survive this and you'll be able to prove, just by virtue of that fact, that they made a mistake.

Fact is, it is very common for these types of cases to be refused because it is very common for foreign nationals to enter into relationship with vulnerable Canadians (especially divorced females), just to gain entry to Canada. I am NOT in any way saying this is the situation with your marriage, but I've seen many accounts where Canadian nationals very sincerely believed that their's was a relationship of love and commitment, and when the immigration application was decided (whether favourably or not), everything changed and their hearts were broken.

So, again, time is your friend. My advice: don't fight it. Allow things to play out as they will so that, in the end, you will know for sure that you have found the love of a lifetime.

As an aside note, a new sponsorship will go exactly the same the first, most likely a refusal.

 

[javcil]

Your case is sooo similar to mine ... age difference, quick wedding, 13 days between divorce decree and remarriage, my spouse has never spoken to my parents ... I think sometimes it's just the luck of the draw on which interviewing officer you get. I sent you a PM, hope it helps.

 

[Amir Shuval]

You should have appealed the refusal and spent the time until your hearing date generating sufficient evidence to win your appeal.

What your MP said is partially true, but he or she didn't give you full insight.

I represent clients in sponsorship appeals at the IRB. Many cases really don't stand a chance because the appellants don't have a clue about how the system works and the case they need to make. Some are unwilling or can't do anything that will improve their chances so they are refused. But from my experience the sponsors who can express themselves in English and are not in some MOC arrangement, sometimes do win these cases. But it requires a lot of work and sacrifice.


At any rate, if the same circumstances remain, any subsequent application will have similar outcome.

 

[boyee6576]

My case was rejected because the IO felt our marriage was not genuine. So we appealed our case and won. Now we would NOT have won had we not had some additional information. After the appeal I went back to India and attended my brother inlaws wedding, spending time with my husband and family and had travelled and gained ADDITIONAL documentation to prove our relationship was genuine. I spent the time from May 2009 until March 16,2010 (appeal date) Working very hard on our case and I didnt it without a lawyer. Its alot of work but if we didnt have anything to add to our case to prove our relationship was genuine we wouldnt have won our appeal.

 

[Amir Shuval]

My case was rejected because the IO felt our marriage was not genuine. So we appealed our case and won. Now we would NOT have won had we not had some additional information. After the appeal I went back to India and attended my brother inlaws wedding, spending time with my husband and family and had traveled and gained ADDITIONAL documentation to prove our relationship was genuine. I spent the time from May 2009 until March 16,2010 (appeal date) Working very hard on our case and I didnt it without a lawyer. It is a lot of work but if we didn't have anything to add to our case to prove our relationship was genuine we wouldnt have won our appeal.

That is exactly what you need to do.

With a lawyer/certified consultant or without one is a personal choice. If someone makes a mistake or loses a case otherwise winnable because they didn't want to spent $2000-$3000 on professional representation it is fine if at the end of the day not being able to bring the spouse/partner to Canada is not as important to them as saving the money

I can personally say that in many sponsorship appeals I did make a difference. In some of the cases we lost regardless because the appellant was so far behind and contacted me very late, but there is a huge difference in the knowledge of a pro who routinely represents sponsors at the IAD and an individual without any experience.

Many times I tell clients at an ADR conference they are better off withdrawing the appeal than going to a full hearing because they cannot win. Sometimes the client insists on pursuing the matter in a full hearing and there is nothing you can do.

If a visa was refused and the IRB did not think an ADR is suitable for the case you better be ready for the full hearing.

Many sponsors who have been married before or sponsored themselves don't realize CIC will scrutinize these previous relationships.

 

[Siouxie]

I concur with the other posters that time is what is going to help you - and prove the genuineness of your relationship.

You may want to read the OP2 manual as well, for information on what they are looking for.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english//resources/manuals/op/op02-eng.pdf

"... 5.50. Internet relationships (page 36)
An Internet relationship alone, without other convincing evidence that the couple has established and maintained a conjugal relationship for at least one year and spent time together, will raise serious concerns as to whether a conjugal relationship exists. Conjugality should be assessed based on the elements of interdependency as set out in Section 5.26above

Then see 5.26 for details.

 

[Siouxie]

That is exactly what you need to do.

With a lawyer/certified consultant or without one is a personal choice. If someone makes a mistake or loses a case otherwise winnable because they didn't want to spent $2000-$3000 on professional representation it is fine if at the end of the day not being able to bring the spouse/partner to Canada is not as important to them as saving the money

I can personally say that in many sponsorship appeals I did make a difference. In some of the cases we lost regardless because the appellant was so far behind and contacted me very late, but there is a huge difference in the knowledge of a pro who routinely represents sponsors at the IAD and an individual without any experience.

Many times I tell clients at an ADR conference they are better off withdrawing the appeal than going to a full hearing because they cannot win. Sometimes the client insists on pursuing the matter in a full hearing and there is nothing you can do.

If a visa was refused and the IRB did not think an ADR is suitable for the case you better be ready for the full hearing.

Many sponsors who have been married before or sponsored themselves don't realize CIC will scrutinize these previous relationships.

It is more likely the case that the person does not have $2000-3000 to pay for a lawyer. I don't think anyone would go through a PR application and then a long involved and time consuming appeal unless that person was important to them. I find your comment a little offensive, sorry.

 

[boyee6576]

In my case, I chose NOT to have a lawyer not because I couldnt afford it. My case went through ADR and its not necessary for a lawyer since its NOT a formal thing. I might be crazy but I had lots of additional information the ADR was just like going to mediation. If you have nothing to hide and additional information I dont feel a lawyer is needed. I was extremely prepared. I was nervous but my spoke well about my case and answered all questions to their satisfaction. Had I not had any thing new to add I wouldnt have won even if I had a lawyer. If my case would have been sent to a full hearing then I would have hired a lawyer. I feel that some lawyers charge outrageous fee and dont do much to earn it. SOME NOT ALL ARE LIKE THAT! So please dont misunderstand me. I am not bashing those who really do work hard for their clients. Its those that take advantage of a heartbroken couple willing to pay almost anything to be together. I have heard of some fees being extremely high. I just dont see for ADR what a lawyer could have done differently than me. To be honest I have to do the work and gather everything and still have to prepare for questions. My husband is WORTH ANY PRICE, we felt we didnt need a lawyer with the crazy things we were rejected on.
For those that chose to have a lawyer thats great you have to do what you feel is best. For me I did it myself. Maybe others think I am a fool for representing my husband and myself but I did it and I won.

 

[boyee6576]

Just as a side note. I had contacted a lawyer explained my case. They said I had NO hope of winning and that I wouldnt get ADR and it would go to full hearing. They said IRB wouldnt even consider me for ADR. They was wrong on all points. I did get ADR and I DID win.

Plus I would have had to pay and outrageous price for their service and I was told that it was only 50/50 I could win if it went to full hearing. LOL

 

[Amir Shuval]

It is more likely the case that the person does not have $2000-3000 to pay for a lawyer. I don't think anyone would go through a PR application and then a long involved and time consuming appeal unless that person was important to them. I find your comment a little offensive, sorry.

I am sorry if you were offended but that is the reality with every immigration matter. It does not necessarily have to be spousal sponsorship or $2000-$3000.

I also had people who really wanted to immigrate to Canada and approached me after a refusal and a loss of the processing fees that could have been avoided if they contacted me or any other authorized representative at the cruicial juncture in the process, but they preferred to do it by themselves and ended up saving $100-$250 on consultation but with a bad immigration result. In many of the cases I cannot do anything to help them at that point. Sometimes it is no harm, no foul scenario, but in many other cases irreparable damage is done.

If you don't have the money then you can't afford the authorized rep and there is nothing to do about it. But if you do, and you want to go cheap and screw it up, then it is solely your fault. And even the clients understand that. Because when they hold the refusal letter (again I am not talking about family class cases in particular here) they realize that saving the money is not as important to them as getting what they need from CIC. That is just a reality of life. I did not mean to be judgmental of someone who simply cannot afford professional legal help with sponsorship or any other matter. It is just that I have seen so many terrible outcomes to sponsorship cases.

Sometimes the sponsor and applicant even paid hard earned money for help , unfortunately the people they chose to help them are some shady characters in China or India who completely dropped the ball.

I had one cases where an office provided on a letter they prepared their own fax number but did not pass the interview letter to the applicant. The application was refused and the sponsor lost the short hearing surrounding the technicalities. If the appellant will not go to a full hearing and reapply he won't be able to bring the daughter or the applicant who is now over 22. all of this nonsense because of the negligence of the unlicensed immigration office.

 

[Amir Shuval]

Just as a side note. I had contacted a lawyer explained my case. They said I had NO hope of winning and that I wouldn't get ADR and it would go to full hearing. They said IRB wouldn't even consider me for ADR. They was wrong on all points. I did get ADR and I DID win.

Plus I would have had to pay and outrageous price for their service and I was told that it was only 50/50 I could win if it went to full hearing. LOL

That is the tough part. finding someone who is good to deal with. I called a lawyer just to see what fee a competitor is asking for a particular service.

He told me the spouse of a work permit holder in a NOC o,A,B cannot simply apply for an open work permit to Vegreville (which is not true) and that he need to see us for a CAD$150 consultation to discuss the matter.

My most recent sponsorship clients could have been successful without me. Their case was straightforward and they were super organized. I am not suggesting you need a lawyer/consultant for everything and in every situation. It is a personal choice and you need to know what you are doing. I have clients who are already in Canada with shaky temporary resident status. They have the money and can afford my fee. They cannot afford the slightest delay or problem with their application because they would need to leave Canada and that will cost them much more than my services. For people in that situation going it alone does not make sense.

If you have been married for 5 years and have biological children together you can probably be successful with a spousal sponsorship application on your own.

 

[BeShoo]

As it is with most things, every case is different. There are applicants who know what they're doing and are very capable of doing it, and there are others who haven't got a clue and/or can't write a coherent sentence in English or French, plus those who don't put in the time to really learn the rules. There are some people who definitely need help with everything in this process.

On the other side there are all sorts of lawyers and other agents out there, too. Some are experienced. Some have very little specialized knowledge in this particular area. Some change truly exhorbitant fees, while others charge fees that are entirely reasonable.

Everyone is different and every couple's circumstances is different. Immigration officers vary, too. When I brought my partner to Canada from the U.S., we hadn't filed the PR application yet. The IO at the border thought I should have at least files the sponsorship part without the applicant part. I'm sure that wouldn't work at all, but she thought it would have.

 

[toby]

Attention PMM, Amir Shuval, and 123sweet:

There are two issues here:
1) How to make the application more convincing? ; and
2) Is professional help necessary?

1) An immigration lawyer I talked to said his main work is handling appeals, and it is often easy work because the years that have elapsed waiting for the appeal date tends to prove the relationship was genuine (if, of course the couple is still together!). 123sweet, sorry to alert you to the additional years in store for you, but that’s the reality.

So, presumably, showing time spent together by the time the appeal date arrives would add proof that the relationship is genuine -- even if that time “together” must be mainly by Internet conversations and holidays spent together with each other’s families, because 123sweet has a job in Canada.

PMM: please explain why you think a new application (or an appeal too?) would be doomed? Your viewpoint might help 1233 sweet prepare a better case.

(I make some suggestions at the end of this long reply.)

2) Is professional help a good idea? My experience might help you decide, 123sweet. Of course, the less articulate the appellant, the more complex the case, the more the help of an expert is needed. But the converse holds true too.

I used a specialist at first, but we parted company because we could not agree on the content of the application, and he was unapologetically wrong on some other important points. Later, as I was completing the application myself, I found this forum, and discovered that many already-successful applicants had included in their applications the type of information my former consultant wanted to exclude. So, turns out I was right to fire him.

Then I interviewed several other consultants, because I wanted to leave nothing to chance. But neither did I want to repeat the negative experience with the first consultant. Each “new” consultant wanted all the money up front, and each one assured me they could improve my application considerably. So I sent them my completed forms, and asked them to point out two things they would change to improve the application significantly. Without exception their suggestions were trivial – certainly not worth thousands of dollars.

Again, this is not to say some people would be helped by a professional, but be very careful in choosing one: there are many charlatans and incompetents out there. Don’t give him/her all the money up front; instead pay in stages, so that they must demonstrate competence in stage 1 before getting the money for stage 2, etc. If the consultant doesn’t want to proceed that way, seek someone else more confident in the quality of their service, confident that you will be a satisfied client and pay him/her for the entire process.


How to prepare for the appeal:
Put yourself in the shoes of a careful appeals officer who wants to be certain your relationship is genuine before approving your application. He or she knows that some relationships similar to yours in some respects have been found to be false relationships. This doesn’t mean yours is false; just that the appeals officer is going to be looking hard at the genuineness. So do the research recommended in other answers in this thread, make a list of points the appeals officer will look at, then get proof on these points. If you need help doing this, then you need a professional; if not, you don’t.

Good luck!!