A Must Read : Experts raise concerns about citizenship rules

[EasyRider]

isnt it the whole point of Canadian rights that you can live wherever you want?

It's correct from the point of law, but law is a virtual construct, it's much harder to trick human nature and change what people really think.

As for Canadians living wherever they want vs "Canadians of convenience", I suppose, it stems from feeling a difference between naturalized Canadians, who supposedly make a free conscious choice to come to Canada and establish themselves here (therefore there's conclusion that if they didn't like it here after several years and rush to move out somewhere else like the US -> immigration experiment failed and there's no point to grant them citizenship and give a passport, they should just immigrate and settle in the US) and people who didn't have any choice and were just born in Canada, so it's their free choice (like in case with immigrants moving to Canada) to move to a place that suits them, and possibly ask for permanent residence and even citizenship there.

 

[ramsfe]

It's correct from the point of law, but law is a virtual construct, it's much harder to trick human nature and change what people really think.

As for Canadians living wherever they want vs "Canadians of convenience", I suppose, it stems from feeling a difference between naturalized Canadians, who supposedly make a free conscious choice to come to Canada and establish themselves here (therefore there's conclusion that if they didn't like it here after several years and rush to move out somewhere else like the US -> immigration experiment failed and there's no point to grant them citizenship and give a passport, they should just immigrate and settle in the US) and people who didn't have any choice and were just born in Canada, so it's their free choice (like in case with immigrants moving to Canada) to move to a place that suits them, and possibly ask for permanent residence and even citizenship there.

I believe that it is VERY SAFE to say that most immigrants who come to Canada stay in Canada, most immigrants who come to Canada WORK and Live in Canada, and what i mean by most, I mean at least 80% of those who succeed while being permanent residents...( the other 20% had other plans from the very begining and will probably come back to Canada at some point) as for those who never succeeded as PR's, well a small minority of them will push the extra mile and wait till they become canadians before leaving, so that they don't consider that they have waisted their time for 3 years....therefore, having a "philosophy changing" debate about canadians of convenience is nothing but an insult to hard working immigrants who want nothing but equal and fair traitement and who often do quite well in their lives here in Canada!

It's like Indicting all Canadians because one canadian was a Mafioso or a corrupt mayor or a corrupt senator ( assisted by the Prime minister's office).

 

[keesio]

One thing to notice is that people come to this forum for help because they may not have a straightforward application. If I used this forum as an average, then I'd think most immigrants are trying to be "Canadians of Convenience" with all the threads about how to get around the system. But people have to remember that the vast majority do not use the forum and have straightforward immigration cases and are not trying to exploit the system.

 

[on-hold]

Also, Switzerland is in a situation where it can use the talents of highly educated foreign workers at will -- huge numbers of Italians, French, and Germans work within Switzerland and go home in the evening, their immigration program doesn't have to try to identify skilled professions to invite in. Switzerland's immigration is family-based and humanitarian-based, and they've let in huge numbers of refugees. There are more people in Switzerland who speak Albanian than one of their national languages.

Of all the countries in the world to compare Canada to, Switzerland is one of the least appropriate. Its history and political culture are unique in Europe, and its approach to immigration is Swiss and nothing else.

Whoever made the point about citizenship being decided locally was right -- this is also why you can't ever say that 'Switzerland' is xenophobic. Different cantons or towns each have their different rules and processes. Some are probably more welcoming than others, I have no doubt at all that parts of Switzerland have debated whether or not to permit a mosque. That kind of thing is a fundamental part of being Swiss, and more power to them (local debate, not mosque hatred).

Here's one thing that Canada has to contend with, for example: Americans ARE Canadians, there is almost no difference. When an American emigrates here, assuming they don't have some grotesque accent, they can fit in like a native with a few easy adjustments. As one, you actually feel like you're living a lie -- you meet people, make friends, and no one knows you're not 'one of them', but at the same time you can't go around announcing that you're an American (esp. because some Canadians take that as bragging). An American who has been here for 1 month can 'pass' better than an Italian immigrant who came at age 25 and spent 30 years in Toronto. The distinction between an American and a Canadian is a legal one, not a linguistic or cultural one (leaving out francophones, of course). Perhaps this is why Canada defines citizenship legally, and not culturally? And at the same time the cultural tests on the citizenship exam are basically stupid -- 'likes hockey', 'eats back bacon' -- because there actually is no cultural test at all that would reliably include Canadians and reliably exclude Americans.

This is totally off topic, I just thought of it when thinking of how distinct Switzerland is within Europe.

 

[on-hold]

I hate the term 'Canadians of convenience' and distrust it also -- I think it's noteworthy that no one actually has any stats on it, and how many CoC are natives and how many are immigrants. People in the developed world accept that they can go and live wherever they want, the demands of patriotism sit lightly on them: Spanish doctors study in Belgium and work in Scandinavia, people move freely everywhere. It is normal that some people who get a Canadian passport will do this too, maybe they have seen this freedom and admire it; especially because many are educated and middle class, and see this ability as a class marker (which it is). If immigrant Canadians are true Canadians, then they acquire this right as well. Griping about it is as stupid as complaining that people immigrate here and then criticize the system or the government or the culture, just like locals criticize the government, or the system, or the culture. If it really is just a matter of resources, using services, etc., then figure out systems of revenue generation that make sense and apply them to all Canadians.

Anyway, if you want to find a Canadian abroad, go to the United States -- that is where Canadians both native and adopted take up residence full time.

 

[keesio]

And at the same time the cultural tests on the citizenship exam are basically stupid -- 'likes hockey', 'eats back bacon' -- because there actually is no cultural test at all that would reliably include Canadians and reliably exclude Americans.

I took the test recently. The big difference for sure is the emphasis on the British monarchy. It is constantly referenced in the study guides. And the history section was interesting with how it covered the American revolution and the War of 1812. It was interesting seeing the different point of view compared to how I was taught in my classrooms when I was growing up in the US.

 

[links18]

So, living like a recluse or in an "ethnic community", having poor or no social standing likely won't get you Swiss citizenship, even after 12 years.

What's wrong with living like a recluse? Plenty of natural born Canadians do. Outside of the major cities Canada has one of the lowest population densities in the world. In fact, some people might want to come to Canada just for this fact. You know, live out in a remote area, etc.

 

[on-hold]

I took the test recently. The big difference for sure is the emphasis on the British monarchy. It is constantly referenced in the study guides. And the history section was interesting with how it covered the American revolution and the War of 1812. It was interesting seeing the different point of view compared to how I was taught in my classrooms when I was growing up in the US.

This is good -- that stuff is the one place, in my opinion, where an American literally has no idea what is going on. The Canadian government is not easy to understand, stuff like 'proroguing' and 'Right of the Queen in Canada' is all gibberish. But this doesn't come up in daily life . . .

 

[ramsfe]

One thing to notice is that people come to this forum for help because they may not have a straightforward application. If I used this forum as an average, then I'd think most immigrants are trying to be "Canadians of Convenience" with all the threads about how to get around the system. But people have to remember that the vast majority do not use the forum and have straightforward immigration cases and are not trying to exploit the system.

That's a dangerous thing to say! People come to this forum because they don't trust the system or CIC, some ask dumb questions that are clearly motivated by fraud, but most of the people I talk to almost everyday are honest people who just don't understand why they have to wait more or be more scrutinized! Just like you Keesio, if you are here, then it is probably because you want to know more about why you are waiting and you want to understand what is happening because you care about your application!

A lot of people got RQ for dumb reasons, a lot of people had their applications returned for dumb reasons too, CIC lost the applications of a lot of people too...that's why people come to this forum and to other forums!

 

[keesio]

That's a dangerous thing to say! People come to this forum because they don't trust the system or CIC, some ask dumb questions, but most of the people I talk to almost everyday are honest people who just don't understand why they have to wait more or be more scrutinized! Just like you Keesio, if you are here, then it is probably because you want to know more about why you are waiting and you want to understand what is happening because you care about your application!

A lot of people got RQ for dumb reasons, a lot of people had their applications returned for dumb reasons too, CIC lost the applications of a lot of people too...that's why people come to this forum and to other forums!

Look at the posts in the PR residency section. Many threads on people who failed their residency obligations and are looking for a way to get into Canada without being reported. Sure, many people are here for just info like you and me. But the percentage of people here looking to exploit loopholes is higher than for all immigrants as a whole. The vast majority does not have an issue. That is what I am trying to say. Most immigrants are fine, never come to this forum, and it is unfair to paint them all with the same brush because of some threads here.

 

[ramsfe]

Look at the posts in the PR residency section. Many threads on people who failed their residency obligations and are looking for a way to get into Canada without being reported. Sure, many people are here for just info like you and me. But the percentage of people here looking to exploit loopholes is higher than for all immigrants as a whole. The vast majority does not have an issue. That is what I am trying to say. Most immigrants are fine and it is unfair to paint them all with the same brush because of some threads here.

But these people will hardly ever get citizenship !!! It's CIC's job to catch them and to show them the exit door! I am talking about the citizenship section!

PR's who don't respect the rules, well...they know the consequences of their acts and no matter how hard they will try, most of them will not succeed in finding a way around the system! But those who RESPECT THE RULES, Who request citizenship and who get punished... that's inhumane and crazy and dumb and you name it...

 

[keesio]

But these people will hardly ever get citizenship !!! It's CIC's job to catch them and to show them the exit door! I am talking about the citizenship section!

They do! The reason why CIC can be horribly inefficient is because they are bad at catching these people due to lack of resources. So they make these blanket rules that punish us all. And they still don't catch most of the anyway which is why these rules are so annoying.

 

[vic48912]

Here's one thing that Canada has to contend with, for example: Americans ARE Canadians, there is almost no difference. When an American emigrates here, assuming they don't have some grotesque accent, they can fit in like a native with a few easy adjustments. As one, you actually feel like you're living a lie -- you meet people, make friends, and no one knows you're not 'one of them', but at the same time you can't go around announcing that you're an American (esp. because some Canadians take that as bragging). An American who has been here for 1 month can 'pass' better than an Italian immigrant who came at age 25 and spent 30 years in Toronto. The distinction between an American and a Canadian is a legal one, not a linguistic or cultural one (leaving out francophones, of course). Perhaps this is why Canada defines citizenship legally, and not culturally? And at the same time the cultural tests on the citizenship exam are basically stupid -- 'likes hockey', 'eats back bacon' -- because there actually is no cultural test at all that would reliably include Canadians and reliably exclude Americans.

This is totally off topic, I just thought of it when thinking of how distinct Switzerland is within Europe.

Your comment resonate with me. I from Africa and my spouse is first generation English of Jewish extraction (born in England). We live close to Tracadie in Nova Scotia where lots of Blacks that can trace their roots back to the time of Canadian founding fathers. My first generation English spouse is never ask how long she has been living in Canada(People assume she is long established Canadian) and she feel offended when I am ask that question because I am from visible minority......The way Harper government is going about it, when is a visible minority become fully integrated Canadian......3, 4, 10, 20, 200 years????? Those loyalist Africans who fought on the side of the crown 17 to 19 century and settled in Hallifax, Africville Tracadie are still been asked if they are true Canadians while my first generation English spouse is considered fully established Canadian..............Harper government that has no shame or decency is ready to capitalize on this sad part of our history and play white Canadian fear against visible minorities. Xenophobia is will surely win vote any time, that is how Hitler got into power

 

[on-hold]

Your comment resonate with me. I from Africa and my spouse is first generation English of Jewish extraction (born in England). We live close to Tracadie in Nova Scotia where lots of Blacks that can trace their roots back to the time of Canadian founding fathers. My first generation English spouse is never ask how long she has been living in Canada(People assume she is long established Canadian) and she feel offended when I am ask that question because I am from visible minority......The way Harper government is going about it, when is a visible minority become fully integrated Canadian......3, 4, 10, 20, 200 years????? Those loyalist Africans who fought on the side of the crown 17 to 19 century and settled in Hallifax, Africville Tracadie are still been asked if they are true Canadians while my first generation English spouse is considered fully established Canadian..............Harper government that has no shame or decency is ready to capitalize on this sad part of our history and play white Canadian fear against visible minorities. Xenophobia is will surely win vote any time, that is how Hitler got into power

And this is the flip side of what I mean -- Canadians give me the privilege of assuming I'm Canadian (but I'm an American); and that same privilege is not extended to people who truly are, some of them Afro-Canadians like you reference, others Sikhs and Muslims and Chinese who were born here, but look different. What's really insidious about that is it weakens a person's ability to feel at home, because home should be the place where you aren't questioned. Canada is probably better than many places in this respect, there are many immigrant serving in Parliament; not every country can say that; but it's not the same as total social acceptance.

On the one hand, you would think mass immigration might help weaken this tendency, by making 'different' people normal; but at the same time, it probably just makes people assume that different people are originally from somewhere else.

Personally, I would give people the benefit of the doubt and just assume they're trying to make conversation and aren't very good at it . . .

 

[links18]

So is the entire 1095 day physical presence thing actually in the act or is it an heuristic administrative device invented by bureaucrats as a way of assessing the amorphous meaning of "residence"?